No, that formed part of the emerging picture in relation to the problems in Historic Environment Scotland. Some of the issues have come to light internally, some have come to light externally, and some have come to light through the media. They contribute to a picture that is a concern for us all.

There were issues that we were aware of, particularly in the first quarter of this year, which helped us to understand that there was a problem in the leadership of Historic Environment Scotland. That was added to by whistleblower information, media reports and then growing formal and informal reports of the different issues that we have all become aware of.

I know that that is very much a priority for the chairman, Sir Mark Jones, who is dealing with a very difficult situation. I know that he is cognisant of all of those factors. I have met HES staff in formal and informal settings and it is clear that, at all levels of the organisation, there is great concern about the circumstances in which it finds itself. You have seen the reports, as have I, about a range of issues that would cause anybody in any workplace very serious concern, but I think that, with new leadership on the board, we are now in a position where those issues can be addressed.

Everybody who is involved directly and indirectly with the situation at HES says that it is an amazing organisation that delivers on the ground—that is important to us all—and that the challenge is one of leadership. That is why I am pleased that we have a new chair in place, that there is to be a chief operating officer to support the changes that will need to take place, and that I will be appointing two new members of the board.

The committee is aware of the process that has been gone through and has taken evidence on the different layers of challenges that exist, but I can say that I am confident that we have, in Sir Mark, somebody who will be able to lead these changes. My civil service colleagues and I will be doing everything that is appropriate for us to support those changes being made.

First, the direct answer to Mr Kerr’s question is that I have not attended a board meeting. I have not been invited to attend a board meeting. However, the way that things operate is that cabinet secretaries or relevant ministers meet regularly with the chief executive and the chair of the organisation, and I have done that. I can go through the interaction with the Scottish Government, because I think that if I was in Mr Kerr’s position, I would be concerned if there was not a very close working relationship between the Scottish Government and HES, given the nature of the challenges that have been raised.

First, to anybody who is watching and does not understand how these things work, the Scottish Government has civil servants in the relevant directorate who have a sponsorship role for non-departmental public bodies—they are known as a sponsorship team. Sponsorship officials meet almost daily with Historic Environment Scotland across the full range of HES directorates and staff. Those meetings include regular catch-ups with the HES chief executive’s office, the finance directorate and the people directorate. The Scottish Government estimates that, since the start of May 2025, there have been more than 100 engagements with Historic Environment Scotland. Sponsorship officials have attended all nine HES board meetings since 22 May, following a request by me that they do so. Those board meetings took place on 22 May, 3 July, 21 August, 28 August, 4 September, 11 September, 18 September, 29 September and 15 October. I could go through a range of interactions involving senior civil servants and senior decision makers in HES.

I am keen for Mr Kerr to be aware that there is full engagement at all levels with Historic Environment Scotland, as there is with other non-departmental bodies. If the board of HES wishes me to attend and meet with it, I am happy to do so. As it so happens, I was at the headquarters of HES yesterday. I do not think that anybody should be under any misapprehensions about the level of involvement with HES and the advice that I receive as cabinet secretary about it.

—the last meeting that I had with the chairman and the regular meetings that have taken place with my senior officials, who have attended every board meeting since it became apparent that there was a problem at Historic Environment Scotland—

I think that the committee is aware that the accountable officer is the chief executive of Historic Environment Scotland. The committee will be aware that there have been periods when the chief executive has not been in post. Mr Kerr will be aware that we are straying into HR territory here, so I need to be cautious about how I address these matters.

My officials were seized of the matter when it became clear that the chief executive officer might not be returning to work. At various stages there have been interactions with the board to explore whether there should be an interim accountable officer in place, but given that it has not been clear over recent months exactly when the chief executive might return to office—at various stages it was thought that she might—the progress of such a replacement has not been taken forward by the board of Historic Environment Scotland.

We are now in a position where the chief executive is fulfilling her responsibilities as accountable officer back at work. That is appropriate. I have wanted to satisfy myself that at no stage have there been any financial decisions that needed sign-off by the accountable officer that could not be proceeded with or needed to be proceeded with in a different way, and that is indeed the case.

I do not know whether Kenneth Hogg wants to add anything on the accountable officer question. I appreciate why it is an important question, but I wish Mr Kerr and the committee to be assured that we have been very involved in making sure that, were there to be any protracted issue with the accountable officer position, it could be remedied. As I have already pointed out, the accountable officer, who is the chief executive, is fulfilling the responsibilities now.

They would be right to be concerned if the meetings had not been attended, but they were attended and I was fully informed about what proceeded at them—

You did not let me finish the sentence, Mr Halcro Johnston.

The normal custom and practice for the cabinet secretary is to meet with the chief executives of organisations, and I have done that on a number of occasions.

It is important for the public—who might, understandably, not be aware—to know that the interrelationship with non-departmental public bodies is through what is known as the sponsorship team within the civil service. The appropriate officials attended every single meeting—at my request—to make sure that we were best informed about things. The amount of interaction that has taken place between the Scottish Government in my area of responsibility and Historic Environment Scotland is—I could not even guess what the level of engagement is with Historic Environment Scotland relative to other non-departmental public bodies. We are extremely seized of the matter.

I think that the important relationship that I have had, presently and in the past, is with the chief executive of the organisation in question. I have that relationship with the current chief executive officer and, as I said in answer to Mr Kerr, I have met a number of times with the incoming chair of Historic Environment Scotland. As I have also said, if the board ever wished me to come along and attend a meeting, I would be content to do so. However, the appropriate level of interaction for my position is with the chief executive of this or any other organisation, and I must satisfy myself that my officials are dealing with the other levels of the organisation, so that we are best informed.

We now find ourselves at a really important inflection point for Historic Environment Scotland. Not only has a new chief executive been brought into the organisation, but a new chair and new board members have been brought into the organisation, and a new chief operating officer will be brought into the organisation. All of that has taken place with the Scottish Government playing the appropriate role in making it happen.

Would I have wished for the past leadership of Historic Environment Scotland to have dealt with all the issues? Absolutely. Now is, unfortunately, the time that others need to do so.

I have not requested to meet the board, because—

Yes, I am totally open to attending such a meeting, but I think that Mr Bibby will appreciate that my primary focus is to support Sir Mark in the most appropriate way as he takes forward new leadership in Historic Environment Scotland. I look forward to being apprised by him of the changes that are taking place in terms of the on-going investigations. As the board changes, of course, no doubt the new members of the board, together with those remaining from the old board, will want to reflect on what has transpired at Historic Environment Scotland.

There is a wider point that emanates from Mr Bibby’s question: what are the learnings about how such a situation could come about in the first place, in order to ensure that such a thing never happens again? The range of leadership issues at Historic Environment Scotland are extremely serious, and that concerns us all.

As the board better understands and comes to terms with what has transpired and the solutions to deal with the issues, I certainly would want to be advised by it so that we can make sure that those learnings are available right across the public sector landscape for arm’s-length organisations.