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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 19 July 2025
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Displaying 1472 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 21 February 2024

Siobhian Brown

We know that stakeholders were not keen on the guidance that the UK Government came up with and they removed themselves from the group. As I stated, the measurement guidance for male and female XL bullies is on the website. We have copied that to the Scottish Government website, but we would like to be—

Criminal Justice Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 21 February 2024

Siobhian Brown

My officials have engaged weekly, and I have engaged with stakeholders since the announcement.

Criminal Justice Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 21 February 2024

Siobhian Brown

It is hypothetical, but it is worth considering as we move forward, when we have a general election coming. Jim Wilson may want to give some background about the court case.

Criminal Justice Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 21 February 2024

Siobhian Brown

I will pass that question to Jim Wilson, because he will deal with the lawyers and put the SSIs in place.

Criminal Justice Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 21 February 2024

Siobhian Brown

It has been. We must reiterate that many XL bully owners are responsible; very few are not. The issue of breeding has come up in my conversations with stakeholders and animal welfare organisations. My remit covers dangerous dogs. I am keen to work with Jim Fairlie in the context of animal welfare, which has been a topical subject in the past couple of months and is one that we should examine.

Criminal Justice Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 21 February 2024

Siobhian Brown

I will just reiterate that this is not an ideal situation and that the decision has not been taken lightly. Moving forward, I hope that we are never in this position again and, for that to happen, there must be reform in legislation. Under my remit on dangerous dogs, I am willing to work with Mr Fairlie, the new minister with responsibility for animal welfare, on how we can make the necessary reform.

Criminal Justice Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 21 February 2024

Siobhian Brown

Convener, if I may, I will come back to Mr MacGregor. This was never a constitutional issue—our concern was about good legislation. As you know, the legislation was announced with no consultation with the Scottish Government and with no background to it, so it has been accelerated to where we are today.

One thing that I would like to say to Mr MacGregor is that, initially, the UK Government estimated that there would be 10,000 dogs on the list. At present, the number is nearly 61,000. Out of those 61,000, only 200 owners have chosen not to keep their dogs. Therefore, the majority of dog owners are responsible dog owners, and I am confident and hopeful that that will happen in Scotland as well.

Criminal Justice Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 21 February 2024

Siobhian Brown

I just have not. It has not been on the agenda. I have been meeting stakeholders.

Criminal Justice Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 21 February 2024

Siobhian Brown

If I may, I will go through the timescale, because it is important that we are clear on how all of this happened.

On 15 September, the UK Government publicly announced that it was going to bring in an XL bully ban in England and Wales. There was no consultation with the Scottish Government. On 15 September, the Prime Minister announced that he had ordered the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs to undertake the work to define and ban XL bully dogs in England and Wales, because the XL bully dog breed was not recognised by the main British dog associations or by the Kennel Club. DEFRA convened an expert group to specify a legal definition of the XL bully for the purpose of the ban in England and Wales, and that group met for the first time on 21 September 2023. Therefore, the regulations, legislation and detail for the ban were not available in early September, because the detail was just being planned as of 21 September.

On 29 September, I received a letter from the UK Government to advise that it would be putting in a ban in England and Wales, but it gave no timescale or detail.

On 2 October, the dog control coalition organisations—the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, the Scottish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, the British Veterinary Association, the Kennel Club, Blue Cross, Dogs Trust and Battersea—all withdrew from the Prime Minister’s DEFRA group, due to concerns over the rushed legislation.

On 31 October, the UK Government publicly announced the timescale that, by 31 December, people would not be able to give away XL bully dogs and that the dogs would have to be muzzled and on a lead. That was an eight-week period.

On 9 November, I sent a letter to the UK Government to say that we would not be following the same legislation and timescale. I did not say that we would not be following it at all; the concern was about the timescale because, at that stage, we would have had six weeks to get things in place by 31 December.

I had asked the UK Government about the potential loopholes in the legislation and the consequences for Scotland. On 14 December, I finally received a very vague answer from the UK Government. At that stage, we decided to bring in the legislation at pace after Christmas.

Criminal Justice Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 21 February 2024

Siobhian Brown

Every local authority should have a dog warden.