Chamber and committees

We are currently doing our best to ensure that women are kept safe. We will not do anything or roll out anything that puts women in any further danger.

You are asking me whether the Scottish Government thinks that the international examples of criminalising the purchase of sex are working.

Our equally safe strategy, which was launched in February last year, explicitly states that prostitution is violence against women and girls, and that has helped us with our strategic approach to challenging men’s demand.

The strategy aims to challenge men’s demand and to put in place support for people with experience of commercial sexual exploitation and help them to exit if they wish to do so. It also aims to raise public and professional awareness that women with experience of selling or exchanging sex are victims of exploitation. It highlights the importance of engagement with stakeholders, including people with lived experience, to inform future policy.

Our strategic approach aims to challenge and deter men’s demand for prostitution and improve access to support for women, from crisis support through to longer-term support. That reflects the complexities of the issues that are associated with prostitution and the need for a multifaceted approach.

On the ground, we are currently working with Police Scotland to support the implementation of operation begonia, its new national approach to prostitution, which is designed to route women with experience of commercial sexual exploitation to support services as opposed to their being charged, and involves police more evidently using the powers that are currently available to them to challenge men’s demand.

Operation begonia has been going on in Aberdeen for many years; it is now operating in Dundee and Edinburgh, and in Glasgow under another name. The latest update from Police Scotland on the operation states that there have been more than 114 patrols; that 171 males have been warned and 48 charged; and that there has been in excess of 250 intelligence logs. Importantly, where women consented, 79 men have been referred to support.

That should give you an idea of what is happening. There is a lot more work going on, but that is what we are currently doing with our strategic approach.

To me, women’s safety has to be paramount. In your evidence sessions, and in the discussions that I have had, I have heard women who are currently involved in prostitution expressing genuine fear that they would become more endangered as a result of the provisions in the bill. I do not think that their voices have been in the conversation thus far, and we must have them around the table as we consider this legislation, because it will impact them. If we are to legislate, we must work together on how to do so safely, so that we do not put any women in further danger.

We need more detail on support. If this was a Government bill, you would quite rightly be scrutinising the proposal and asking for detail on how long the support would be provided, whether we would be paying for rent, council tax and childcare, what would happen if the woman chose to go back into prostitution and returned to receive support in three months’ time, and what the timescales were expected to be. Those are the kind of questions that I would expect to be able to answer as a Government minister. If it is to be good legislation that we can vote on and have confidence in, MSPs would need to have detail on how much it would cost and what support would be in place. At this stage, we do not have that detail.

From what I have heard, they could potentially do that. You have heard evidence from women in that regard. I do not want to go into detail about the reasons why that is, because I am sure that you have heard such detail.

We are not looking at that at the moment, no.

Pardoning is complex, and that is why we need to have more engagement. If we did decriminalise—

That is fine.

Even in the unlikely scenario where a section 46 offence was deemed relevant by the police for the purposes of a level 2 PVG—protecting vulnerable groups—scheme disclosure, the individual would have the right to request a review of that or other relevant information before it is disclosed to an employer. Inclusion of such information is subject to a statutory test.

I need to reiterate that the new Police Scotland approach prioritises women’s safety and routing them to support, as opposed to criminalising them, and convictions for such an offence are therefore less likely to be accrued, given the general policing approach to such behaviour. I can provide further information on that. The same approach applies if an individual is asked by someone, for example, an employer, to self-declare their convictions. A section 46 conviction does not need to be self-declared once it is spent, regardless of the time of disclosure or the role. A system of disregards could be considered, which would introduce a process whereby convictions could be removed entirely from ever having to be disclosed in the criminal records check. However, that would have to be developed for the bill. It could be considered, but it is not something that we have been doing any work on. That would have to be for the member in charge.

A level 2 PVG disclosure, which is commonly referred to as a “PVG scheme”, is a legal requirement for people in a regulated role with children or protected adults, such as a teacher, a nursery or day-care worker, a volunteer, a childminder, a social worker, a doctor, a dentist, a sports coach or an adult care-home worker. A PVG scheme shows any unspent convictions, certain spent convictions, any notification requirements, unspent cautions and other relevant information that is held by the police. Those who are on a barred list for work with children or adults or who are under consideration for inclusion on the barred list for work with children or protected adults, or who have been served any prescribed civil court order, are members of the protecting vulnerable groups scheme, and members of the PVG scheme are subject to continuous monitoring in that situation.

I can move on to level 2 from the barred list check. Do you want me to keep going, convener?

One of the things that the member has acknowledged is the increase in online prostitution. If it is 80 per cent now—