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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 1 December 2025
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Displaying 1480 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 9 May 2023

Natalie Don-Innes

There will need to be a gradual change with the costs, but I have already mentioned the last-bed pilot and the increase to 16 beds, which will ensure capacity for Scottish children while reducing the capacity for cross-border placements from England. I emphasise that we are cognisant of the fact that cross-border placements will still be required to happen in exceptional circumstances, but only when it is absolutely essential for the child’s welfare.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 9 May 2023

Natalie Don-Innes

Yes. At the moment, the costs for secure care are significantly higher than the cost for young offenders institutions. For the exact detail on that, I will pass over to my official, Brendan Rooney.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 9 May 2023

Natalie Don-Innes

Yes, absolutely. That is why I am saying that we really do not want those placements to happen unless they are absolutely essential or for exceptional circumstances. We do not want to remove a young person from everything that they know and from resources and support networks that could be around them. In essence, then, the answer to your question is yes.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 9 May 2023

Natalie Don-Innes

As far as I am aware, that would take place through the usual budget process. However, if such a specific situation were to become an issue, it could be monitored. In addition, the secure care centres in Scotland are discussing how they can manage such issues. I am confident, therefore, that that could be managed.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 9 May 2023

Natalie Don-Innes

Not just now, but the funding would be for the full financial year, so that would not be an issue for secure care centres at the moment.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 9 May 2023

Natalie Don-Innes

As I said, we are working with local government on that, and examples of where we could have done things differently in the bill have already come up. For example, when we created the financial memorandum, we used the lower number for the projected number of hearings, but we now accept that the higher figure should have been used. That will be updated in any updated financial forecast.

With regard to your wider point about reassurances, I am using that example to show you that we are taking cognisance of decisions that have already been made and where things can be improved, and that we are working with local government to ensure that this runs the way we want it to.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 9 May 2023

Natalie Don-Innes

Absolutely. It is a priority for us to get this right, because we want it to be implemented appropriately. As I have said, the financial memorandum was a snapshot in time. The committee evidence and scrutiny will feed into it and will help to direct and input to the conversations that will take place on the finances that are needed. We will also continue to press the UK Government for additional funding for joint priorities, and we would welcome support from across the Parliament, the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and individual local authorities in that respect. I assure the committee that this is absolutely a priority for us, and we are well tuned into it.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 9 May 2023

Natalie Don-Innes

As far as I am aware, it will take heed of inflation. I will pass over to one of my officials to clarify that.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 9 May 2023

Natalie Don-Innes

It comes back to what I have been saying. COSLA was involved in the discussions that led to the creation of the financial memorandum. However, I understand that it has now raised specific concerns about the funding. COSLA will be feeding into the 5 June working group and we will be engaging with COSLA and working through the matter in discussion with it. Those reassurances will come as discussions go forward.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 9 May 2023

Natalie Don-Innes

I would not say that it is not accurate. I would say that, as I mentioned, it was an accurate snapshot of the issues and the finance that would be required at that moment.

The financial memorandum was not based on the engagement with stakeholders but they contributed to it to a high degree. Wider issues, such as the cost of living and inflation, have impacted on it. They could not have been factored in when it was created. As with any legislation, we need to set out the financial considerations for the bill at the time.

I do not necessarily want to say what I think should be in the new financial memorandum; that will be something for the working group to discuss, based on the evidence that we have heard so far and the issues that have arisen with the first financial memorandum.