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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 10 October 2025
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Displaying 1302 contributions

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Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 10 September 2025

Natalie Don-Innes

Again, I do not want to pre-empt a decision; however, I have been very clear about and emphasised my support for the outdoor residential groups. In my opening statement, I alluded to a number of actions that the Government is taking and a number of areas in which the Government is already working to support the residential outdoor sector.

I do not want to pre-empt the decision, but I emphasise my support for the sector and my understanding of the difference that residential trips can make for children and young people, which we discussed at length at the previous committee meeting. I will leave it there for now.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 10 September 2025

Natalie Don-Innes

I met COSLA representatives, who had some grave concerns around the bill, specifically around the lack of data on affordability, and around supporting children with additional support needs. Probably the biggest concern of all was the workforce implications, which have not been addressed or costed.

In my meeting with the trade unions, I heard a lot of concerns around the workforce. It has been assumed that teachers will continue to do that work on a voluntary basis, but we know that, once something is put into statute, that might not continue to be the case. I have heard that directly from some of those organisations.

I believe that the committee heard that, at times, teachers are advised not to do things on a voluntary basis. That is an issue, especially if the bill becomes a statute. The teacher unions were very keen to engage with Ms Smith on that—not to discuss negotiations or anything like that, but to allay their concerns about the assumptions in the bill and the implications for the workforce.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 10 September 2025

Natalie Don-Innes

I am sorry, but I am not aware of whether they have. The last I knew was that they had not.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 10 September 2025

Natalie Don-Innes

The Government could not possibly understand the costs that would attach to teacher negotiations in the process that I have just laid out. That will happen in due course. We could not negotiate for issues in teacher contracts that will arise from a bill that has not even been passed—that is still at stage 1, stage 2 or stage 3. That would have to happen afterwards. On that level, it is impossible to understand the cost. However, I reiterate that the committee should share my concern about the unknowns.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 10 September 2025

Natalie Don-Innes

To provide some clarity, I have already made clear my enthusiasm for the outdoor residential sector—

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 10 September 2025

Natalie Don-Innes

Mr Adam puts the point perfectly. I have been very clear in what I have said. I appreciate the work that Ms Smith has done to bring down the costs of the bill if it proceeds to stage 2. The targeted provision and the commencement dates are very welcome, but the issue is with the unknowns. As Mr Adam has said, in some areas, a blank cheque would, in effect, have to be written. That is a difficulty for, and a matter of real concern to, the Government, which is why our deliberations on a financial resolution continue.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 10 September 2025

Natalie Don-Innes

Mr Adam has raised an important point, because I believe that, according to some of the latest analysis and correspondence that Ms Smith has sent me, a new trend has been emerging in her discussions with stakeholders. Officials can correct me if I get the figure wrong, but I think that around 15 to 20 per cent of children and young people are not going on trips due to a level of anxiety about them. More work really needs to be done on that. A legislative proposal will not necessarily solve that problem, and I think that we really need to understand whether it is down to additional support needs or something else. Again, the non-legislative approach that I have been speaking to allows flexibility in that respect.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 10 September 2025

Natalie Don-Innes

The Government abstained because we are neutral on the bill. As I have already said, the committee and the Government raised a number of unanswered concerns about it, and I wanted to work with the member over that period of time to understand some of those concerns and, hopefully, get some of them addressed.

I appreciate what the member has said about Parliament voting for the bill. I have been very clear about the process for the financial resolution. Of course, it is a matter for the Parliament’s standing orders, and if this is something that the member or Parliament is not content with, it is absolutely something that the Parliament can consider.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 10 September 2025

Natalie Don-Innes

I cannot give any further information on the ministerial decision-making process. I cannot provide you with the information that I have given to Cabinet.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 10 September 2025

Natalie Don-Innes

I understand the convener’s and the committee’s views on that. I have heard them—