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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 10 October 2025
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Displaying 1302 contributions

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Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 10 September 2025

Natalie Don-Innes

There are costs attached to the bill that remain unknown. The process helps Parliament not to walk into unknown costs. Ms Smith has worked to bring the costs of the bill down, but there remain outstanding concerns about the unknown affordability of certain measures, such as the workforce implications, support for children with additional support needs and capital costs to improve the infrastructure. A number of matters have not been taken into account, all of which I have asked Ms Smith to address. Concerns remain outstanding. Parliament needs to be clear that we can gather data around the costs that have been put forward, but more time is needed for that and—

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 10 September 2025

Natalie Don-Innes

No. Again, it would not fall on the Government to complete that work.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 10 September 2025

Natalie Don-Innes

I am sorry, Ms Smith; by “not a Government-supported bill”, I mean that we abstained on the bill. This is not a Government-led bill—it is a member’s bill. Thereby, responsibility to work out the costings and affordability rests with you, as the member in charge.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 10 September 2025

Natalie Don-Innes

Yes. I will bring in Lewis Hedge for clarity, because I do not want to say the wrong thing.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 10 September 2025

Natalie Don-Innes

I believe that the total is £5 million to £6 million, but I could be wrong on that. However, it is clear that a non-legislative pilot would represent a significantly lower initial cost. The Government would have control over how and when any such financial implications would be incurred against the budget, so that would provide a greater level of certainty.

Also, a non-legislative pilot approach does not necessarily represent a recurring annual budget implication. Equally, it would give the Government time to learn. I have spoken this morning about the gaps in the data, which we are already working to overcome and want to overcome, and that approach would give us the necessary time to do so. Creating a new statutory obligation for what is, as I have said, an unknown total potential recurring annual cost is a significant risk that I and ministers have a responsibility to consider.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 10 September 2025

Natalie Don-Innes

I am sorry. You are asking why the Government has dedicated time to—

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 10 September 2025

Natalie Don-Innes

I appreciate where the convener is coming from but I am clear that the principal focus of the decisions and deliberations about the financial resolution for the bill should be on the costs of provision. I am trying to show the committee that the costs of provision that have been detailed already are not the total costs of the bill and there is a number of outstanding concerns about increasing costs that would mean that the bill has a higher price tag. Although the concerns might not, on the face of it, seem to be about affordability, when we start to dig into the data that we have in the figures that have been provided and those that have not been provided for some of those aspects, we see that they relate directly to affordability and, therefore, to the financial resolution.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 10 September 2025

Natalie Don-Innes

We will not have the information about the cost for the workforce in two weeks’ time.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 10 September 2025

Natalie Don-Innes

I should add that I am more than willing to engage with Ms Smith. I have proven that—I engaged with her throughout stage 1 and have continued to engage with her since then. I am more than happy to engage with her on potential approaches. When I raised the possibility of non-legislative approaches, she was not in favour of those—she preferred a legislative approach. However, I am more than happy to continue to work with her.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 10 September 2025

Natalie Don-Innes

That is what the potential pilot approach offers—a greater level of flexibility. As I discussed with the committee the last time I was here, there are children in rural areas who might benefit more from urban trips to cities that allowed them to take in museums and so on, rather than traditional residential trips.

There are also children with additional support needs who would not necessarily benefit from a residential stay. I know that there are already organisations, some of which I referred to in yesterday’s debate, that are actively involved in taking children with additional support needs on frequent day trips, because that is more suited to them.

It is important that there is flexibility, because we must ensure that what is delivered is what is needed by the children and young people. A week-long stay in residential accommodation is not necessarily right for all children and young people, although I understand the benefits that it brings for many.