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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 30 November 2025
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Displaying 1480 contributions

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Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Children (Care, Care Experience and Services Planning) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 5 November 2025

Natalie Don-Innes

There was some frustration that the draft bill—the specific detail on scope and exactly what was to be included in the bill—was not shared with key stakeholders ahead of the bill being introduced to Parliament. However, as the committee is aware, that is in line with parliamentary protocol and the ministerial code in relation to the introduction of legislation.

As I have made clear, both prior to and following the introduction of the bill, I have been very keen to engage as widely as possible, and that includes engagement with committee members.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Children (Care, Care Experience and Services Planning) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 5 November 2025

Natalie Don-Innes

I believe that there is. I will bring in Tom McNamara in a second to speak to some of the specifics. It comes down to what we have heard from and discussed with stakeholders. We have tried to keep as close as possible to Sheriff Mackie’s report when we can. In the conversations that I have had, the general feeling has been that a presumption to attend would not necessarily have the intended outcome or make the difference that we would want it to make. I believe that the approach that we have taken in the bill is more balanced and speaks to the recommendations.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Children (Care, Care Experience and Services Planning) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 5 November 2025

Natalie Don-Innes

I will be happy to do so. Every party spokesperson that I have met with has raised this issue with me—

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Children (Care, Care Experience and Services Planning) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 5 November 2025

Natalie Don-Innes

I believe that there could be a downside to defining “care experience” in the bill. We have already discussed this morning the issue of different groups, or certain young people, feeling that they might be left out, and so having a clear and rigid definition on the face of the bill could cause problems in the future. Working that through in guidance, as we propose to do for a number of other areas of the bill, would allow for the issue to be considered and worked on with children and young people and, indeed, other organisations that we have already mentioned. It would also allow us to have the appropriate time and flexibility to get to the heart of what we are trying to do. From the conversations that I have had so far, I believe that that is the right approach.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Children (Care, Care Experience and Services Planning) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 5 November 2025

Natalie Don-Innes

I am sorry, Mr Ross, but I must have been thinking of another letter or another response from Clan Childlaw. I did not realise that this was a response from two days ago.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Children (Care, Care Experience and Services Planning) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 5 November 2025

Natalie Don-Innes

No, I would not say so.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Children (Care, Care Experience and Services Planning) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 5 November 2025

Natalie Don-Innes

That speaks to what we have been referring to in relation to the grounds process. In the attempt to establish grounds, there are likely to be families who are never going to agree on those grounds. From what I have heard from people with experience, those meetings can be extremely difficult—almost adversarial—which sets up children’s experiences of the system in the wrong way. Much of what Tom McNamara and I have been speaking about, over and above the changes to the grounds process, will help to reduce the incidence of such experiences.

I referred to this in my opening statement, but when I was at the Our Hearings, Our Voice conference last week or the week before, I heard about ways in which we could change the children’s hearings system. Some of those involve legislation such as the bill before us—which was welcomed. However, it is also about attitude.

I regularly speak with children with experience of the system, and I believe that the provisions that we are introducing will help to cut out some of what Mr McLennan mentions and will go a long way towards supporting those children and young people further.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Children (Care, Care Experience and Services Planning) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 5 November 2025

Natalie Don-Innes

Nothing happened in the weeks after that. I had been planning to consult to answer some of the challenges that we have already—

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Children (Care, Care Experience and Services Planning) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 5 November 2025

Natalie Don-Innes

It was simply down to timescales.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Children (Care, Care Experience and Services Planning) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 5 November 2025

Natalie Don-Innes

I have already said that I know that concern has been raised about the figures for aftercare. I note that the figures were provided by local authorities. We asked for the most up-to-date information, so that was the best information that we had to go on.

It is difficult to put a price on aftercare, because it can be delivered and provided in different ways. As we have alluded to this morning, every child and young adult’s needs are different.

Based on the figures that were provided, a good effort was made to realistically envision those costs, but I have been clear that further work, especially in relation to aftercare, is on-going with COSLA to tighten those up a little.