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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 22 September 2025
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Displaying 1734 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Scottish Fiscal Commission (Appointments)

Meeting date: 9 September 2025

Michelle Thomson

Hello, and thank you for joining us. I noticed on your CV that you are a non-executive board member of Paragon Music Ltd.

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Scottish Fiscal Commission (Appointments)

Meeting date: 9 September 2025

Michelle Thomson

Do you think that that alternative experience—I suppose that one might refer to it as cognitive diversity—is something that you will be able to bring to the perhaps slightly dry subject matter of the Scottish Fiscal Commission?

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Scottish Fiscal Commission (Appointments)

Meeting date: 9 September 2025

Michelle Thomson

We find it exciting, but hey.

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2026-27

Meeting date: 9 September 2025

Michelle Thomson

You are absolutely bang on in what you say. You are illustrating by example some of the considerations that might be made when undertaking reform, mapped against continued delivery. The point that I am making is whether, from a public administration perspective, we are missing a trick by not going back to the way we thought things were—that is, ministers and cabinet secretaries set the priorities and attempt to deliver against them, which is very difficult—and removing the civil servants or the former permanent secretary in this example. We need to make sure that they, too, are part of the mix. If it comes down to accountability and final say in the case of headcount, that to me is quite fundamental as to how we assess the probability of delivery. There is not a general discussion about understanding that complexity in the normal way of doing things.

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Scottish Fiscal Commission (Appointments)

Meeting date: 9 September 2025

Michelle Thomson

Thank you for joining us. I read your CV with interest as well, and there is no denying the depth of your hinterland. Following on from Ross Greer’s question, to what extent do you regard your depth of knowledge, which you have built up over many years, as an opportunity and to what extent do you regard it as a risk? You are steeped in a prevailing culture of thinking, particularly linking back to the Treasury, whose tentacles reach everywhere.

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Scottish Fiscal Commission (Appointments)

Meeting date: 9 September 2025

Michelle Thomson

Yes.

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Scottish Fiscal Commission (Appointments)

Meeting date: 9 September 2025

Michelle Thomson

In your application, you make the statement:

“I have called out bad or dishonest practices.”

Obviously, I do not expect you to cite individual examples, but I am interested that you deliberately chose to do that. I do not want to put words in your mouth, but I am interested in your view of ethics and why you put that in your application. It would be useful to understand a bit more about why you felt that that was sufficiently important.

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2026-27

Meeting date: 9 September 2025

Michelle Thomson

I will not go into the national performance framework, because I know that there are other areas of consideration there.

I want to pick up on a finding that the committee brought out some months ago that goes back to my questions about appetite. I forget whether it was the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government or the Minister for Public Finance who said this—in fact, I think that it was the former permanent secretary—but it became clear that workforce numbers are the exclusive preserve of the civil servants rather than Government. In other words, the civil servants have the final say on headcount.

I thought that was a very good example of complexity. Government might say, “This is what we wish to do,” but if the civil servants do not wish to deliver that, they are ultimately accountable. I can sense by the look on your face, Mr Sousa, that that is also news to you, but that seems to me to be quite fundamental as an example of why, although Government might set out good plans, it might not be able to deliver. I do not know whether you knew about that, Mr Robinson, but it is an important point that all of us in Parliament should remember.

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2026-27

Meeting date: 9 September 2025

Michelle Thomson

Yes—except, inevitably, turkeys do not vote for Christmas.

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2026-27

Meeting date: 9 September 2025

Michelle Thomson

My first question follows the discussion about preventative spend. The tendency of any organisation or Government is always to want to spend money; that is a flat state. Michael Kellet, from your perspective, what consideration has been given to creating a culture in which personal responsibility can be actively considered as a part of prevention while recognising the very real challenges with some health issues?

I have another, general question for everybody. In today’s discussion, we have had what feels like quite a shift, whereby we are more prepared now to think the unthinkable. We had a discussion earlier about universality, and Dave Moxham commented on the Scottish business bonus arguably propping up zombie businesses. That brings me to a challenge for David Livey. Do we have exactly the same thing here, whereby we are, in effect, propping up zombie volunteer organisations that are not focusing fundamentally on their own financial resilience? It is not necessarily their fault, but, over time, it is easier to go for the low-hanging fruit of project funding. The general question is whether we have entered a stage where people—arguably for the first time and subject to the politics and whatnot—are prepared to think a bit differently across the public sector.