Chamber and committees

Sorry to interrupt. What you are articulating increases my confidence level that you have taken on board what we said before. Those are all examples showing that, but the issue is the basis on which you will proceed. To go back to Liz Smith’s point, even from a well-estimated framing, the continued co-design means that there is the significant potential for cost overrun, unless you have us breathing down your necks saying, “You said this. It’s going to be that.” I have heard a million times, in another life, people saying, “We thought it was going to be A plus C plus E, but, actually, the person over there has made a very good point about G”, after which they go away and look at it again.

That is the critical risk factor for the costs that you are outlining. I have seen that kind of situation in private industry, where people have taken the approach that you are, which is a function of complexity. They have said, “Right. There’s going to be a fixed budget. That is it; end of.” Then, as managers come in and change, they might entertain the idea that option E looks quite interesting, but that approach would require them to de-scope and take things out because of the fixed budget.

Ultimately, despite my crediting you with doing all that work, we have no control over the end cost. Therefore, perhaps the question is whether anybody has said that, allowing for an inflationary uplift, which we cannot control, and potentially for other variables, they will put a fixed cost on that. For me, that would be the real test of how much extra work you have done.

Yes, I am talking about the investment time. That is the activity where significant costs are often incurred. For example, if people are doing a good job, taking in soundings from other elements and there are multiple stakeholders with whom changes need to be worked through, it can incur a real on-going cost. If you are operating to a fixed budget, there will be a sharpness to that, but if there is no fixed budget line, that will not be the case.

That is my point. Thank you.

You are almost making my point for me. There is a very good rationale and a very good reason for doing things like that, but having that detailed discussion will take time, and using all that resource—as opposed to spend through capital expenditure or whatever—will, by necessity, increase costs.

I am just trying to set out my conclusion from a financial perspective that, despite the good work that you have done, there will inevitably be significant cost overruns over time. That is a concern, which is counterintuitive to a very difficult fiscal environment. I appreciate that that is a bit technical.

On a point of order, Presiding Officer. Last week, in a debate held on 17 January, I intervened on the Conservative member Roz McCall to ask if she was able to furnish me with a copy of the Scottish Conservatives’ new deal for teachers. She agreed that she would do so, I think upon advice from her front bench, but has not been able subsequently to obtain that.

I have contacted the Scottish Parliament information centre, which also contacted the Scottish Conservatives. It seems that the party’s communications office was also unaware of said document.

My question therefore is this: what steps should I take to allow Ms McCall—who I am certain would not want to mislead Parliament—to correct the record?

Just for the record, then, there can be no possibility of your avoiding Audit Scotland’s scrutiny of any potential risks associated with green freeports in Scotland and you will not seek to exclude it as you have done with the National Audit Office in England.

Well, it is not involved, is it? It is playing a very limited role in the current inquiry when it should be leading it—and, certainly in Scotland, I would expect any such inquiry, if it came to pass, to be led by Audit Scotland. I appreciate that that is hypothetical, though.

Good morning, Mr Gove. Thanks for joining us. Is it not the case that the real reason why the money for all these funds cannot match EU funding is that the UK is trading broke? The debt to gross domestic product ratio is nearly at parity and the cost of servicing UK debt interest is £380 million a day. Is that not the real reason—that the UK is trading broke?

Of course, that is not actually the case. The UK has been in economic decline, and the figures are quite stark. I note that

“In 1980 the UK’s GDP per capita was in line with or exceeded most advanced economies. By 2019, the gap between UK GDP per capita and the small advanced economies average had increased to 38%”.

That is by the by, however, and I am aware of the time, so I will come on to what I wanted to ask you about today. You have mentioned green freeports a number of times. The important port of Grangemouth is located in my constituency of Falkirk East. You may recall that, the last time you were in front of the committee, I asked you about the role of, and your accountability to, Audit Scotland. One of the concerns that have been expressed about freeports is the possibility of corruption. The regulatory environment is all managed by the UK Government.

I will just flip over to the record of what each of us said on that occasion. You said:

“I am accountable to the UK Parliament, to Audit Scotland”

and so on. I then asked:

“What specific agreement have you made with Audit Scotland in that respect?”

You replied:

“I am waiting for Audit Scotland to make any suggestion to me about what it would like to do”.—[Official Report, Finance and Public Administration Committee, 24 February 2022; c 25.]

My first question therefore is whether Audit Scotland has been in touch with you or you have been in touch with Audit Scotland, as to how the green freeports can be given oversight to avoid potential risks of corruption.

It is for that reason that I am asking. You will of course be well aware of the potential for corruption in Teesside. I noted with interest your decision to exclude the National Audit Office in England in setting up your own investigation. The National Crime Agency suggests that £262 billion is lost to UK GDP each and every year as a result of money laundering and corruption, so you will see my interest in a stated role and full inclusivity for Audit Scotland, so there is no hint of that at the green freeport in Grangemouth.

I will ask this again. Given that Audit Scotland has not been in touch with you—which I will pick up with Audit Scotland—will you share any findings with Audit Scotland as to what, if anything, has gone wrong with the freeport in Teesside?