Plenary, 30 Jun 2005

Meeting date: Thursday, June 30, 2005

Official Report 840KB pdf

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First Minister's Question Time

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Prime Minister (Meetings)

To ask the First Minister when he will next meet the Prime Minister and what issues will be discussed. (S2F-1767)

I also wish the First Minister a very happy birthday.

Thank you very much. [Laughter.] I am speechless—but I am not waffling.

I hope to meet the Prime Minister at Gleneagles next week. I take the liberty this afternoon of saying that today, in advance of the summit, I had intended to wear a tie bearing the G8 tartan. However, this week I was sent something that I thought would be even more appropriate. The tie that I am wearing today was devised by the pupils of St Stephen's Primary RC School in Paul Martin's constituency, which is the most multicultural school in Scotland—pupils of some 35 nationalities study at that school. They thought that it would be appropriate to change their historic school tie to one that reflects all the different nationalities that are woven into the school. They say about the new tie:

"Our tartan is a celebration of uniqueness, a symbol of harmony and togetherness, a sense of identity and belonging."

They have been able to welcome people into their community—I hope that next week the whole of Scotland will welcome the world to Gleneagles and beyond.

Very nice it is, too.

Will the First Minister join me at the make poverty history march in Edinburgh on Saturday when, I hope, tens of thousands of us will uphold the proud Scottish tradition of peaceful protest? Does the First Minister recall that, when the G8 met in Birmingham seven years ago, thousands of people demonstrated and lots of fine words were spoken by the world leaders, but far too little was delivered? Will he join me in demanding from this G8 summit not more empty rhetoric, but real action backed by new money to start improving the lives of the poorest people on our planet?

I very much hope to be present at the march on Saturday. Of course, I hope that the G8 Scotland summit will deliver the kind of change—and the resources to back it up—that is required in Africa and elsewhere in the world. This is a unique opportunity for our country to take centre stage in historic decisions that could change the face of a continent and, therefore, the rest of the world. Two hundred years ago, Scots with their ideas, invention, commitment, ingenuity and internationalism helped to shape the modern world. At the beginning of the 21st century, we have a chance to be the place where that happens again. I hope that all the G8 leaders will respond.

Does the First Minister realise that people do not want just vague assurances, but tangible results from the summit? For example, does he agree that it is immoral that many countries are forced to spend more on debt repayments than they spend on basic health and education services for their citizens? Does the First Minister agree with the make poverty history campaign that money that is provided by the G8 for debt cancellation must be

"in addition to the funds for overseas aid, and not simply reallocated from aid budgets"?

Does the First Minister also agree that, if we really want to make poverty history, the rich countries will have to dig deeper and put new money on the table?

We need action on aid, on debt and on trade. We should all welcome the action early this month of the G8 finance ministers. That action secured real change to debt repayments for the poorest countries of Africa and for many more countries in the years to come. I hope that at next week's summit that action will be matched by firm commitments to increase aid, not just from Europe—where such commitment has already been secured—but from other G8 countries far from Europe. I hope that that will spur on other countries to join in.

We also need changes in trade. I hope that next week the G8 summit will say clearly, in advance of the World Trade Organisation negotiations in Hong Kong later this year, that the G8 is committed to changing the trade rules that currently disadvantage the poorest countries of the world, and to giving those countries a fair chance not just to receive increased aid and to have reduced or eliminated debt, but to grow their economies, to be self-sustaining and to ensure that their people have a future of which they can be proud.

The First Minister mentioned aid. Does he share my disgust that 35 years after the United Nations set its modest target for international aid, some of the richest countries in the world still come nowhere near meeting it, and countries such as the United Kingdom and the United States, which can at the drop of a hat find billions of pounds to fight a war, have not found the money to stop children starving to death?

Does the First Minister agree that if next week's summit is to mean anything, it must deliver as an absolute minimum a commitment on the part of all G8 countries to follow the example of small nations such as Norway, and meet the UN aid target well before the end of this decade?

I very much welcome the fact that after many years of cuts in the overseas development budget by the Conservative Administration, we now have a firm commitment from the Government not just to double the aid budget from this country, which has happened in the past eight years, but to reach that 0.7 per cent target. I hope not only that the G8 leaders will achieve that target, but that they will be able to bring it forward in the years to come. I hope that they will also be able to secure from the other major countries of the world a similar, if not better, commitment. If we do that next week, it will be a great thing to have happened in Scotland.

Will the First Minister finally understand, in the spirit of consensus, that although we have heard many vague assurances and warm rhetoric from some of the world leaders over the past few weeks, what the people who will march in Edinburgh and around the world next week want are tangible results that will save lives in Africa and the other poorest parts of the world? Does he agree that if the G8 leaders who will meet in our country next week do not deliver those tangible and specific results, they will not be forgiven?

We have made it clear for months that this is a unique opportunity. The host nation of the G8 summit is firmly committed to the agenda and we have been driving it for months, if not for years. The Commission for Africa report that the Prime Minister published earlier this year produced a comprehensive set of solutions that can transform the continent of Africa.

It is incumbent on the G8 leaders to respond next week, but I believe that there is hope. The G8 finance ministers replaced rhetoric with real action earlier this month. If that is a signal of a new commitment on the part of the G8 countries, then we can hope for even better next week. If they achieve that, Scotland will be delighted to have had them here.

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Cabinet (Meetings)

To ask the First Minister what issues will be discussed at the next meeting of the Scottish Executive's Cabinet. (S2F-1768)

The next meeting of the Cabinet—unless an unexpected meeting has to take place—will take place in August and the agenda will be determined nearer the time.

Perhaps the Cabinet will reflect on the outcome of the G8 summit at that meeting. In his speech yesterday at the University of Glasgow, the First Minister reportedly accused people in Scotland of being "wasteful, greedy and materialistic". I believe that that is a travesty of the truth. Let us not forget that it was our so-called greedy people who contributed so generously to the tsunami relief appeal only six months ago and who have contributed hundreds of millions of pounds to helping people in developing countries in Africa and elsewhere over the years. In that light, will the First Minister reconsider his statement, which was not only wide of the mark, but obscures the real problems that face many countries in Africa today?

I would happily endorse any statement to the effect that the Conservative representatives in Parliament regularly adopt the approach of being "wasteful, greedy and materialistic". At the same time, it is absolutely right that we as politicians discuss the nature of the society in which we live in addition to fulfilling our responsibilities for public services and legislation.

I believe absolutely that we in the rich and developed west live in a society that is far too often wasteful, greedy and materialistic, and that our young people are driven unnecessarily and in ways that damage them by consumerist ideals that at times go far too far, and by peer pressure that damages them, their families and their communities.

We are absolutely right to want to help people in the developing world who require our assistance, and to celebrate what is good about our society, but we should also occasionally admit what has gone wrong in our society. We should be honest about that and learn from others who, despite the poverty and disease that afflicts their societies, show the hope, sparkle, clarity and ambition that are sometimes missing here and throughout the developed world. We have a duty to talk about that honestly. I intend to continue to do so.

The First Minister is right that we have a duty to talk about the matter, but I do not share his pessimistic analysis. The fact that hundreds of thousands of people are coming to Scotland on Saturday to demonstrate shows the depth of generosity and the concern that people have. A few weeks ago, after the First Minister's visit to Malawi, I asked him how people in Scotland could be assured that the money that they donate will actually help people in Malawi and not line the pockets of corrupt politicians and officials. Since then, we have heard of the Malawi president's farm in Zimbabwe, which is protected by Robert Mugabe; the impeachment charges that Malawi MPs have brought against the president; and Malawi's failure to qualify for the G8 debt-relief programme because it does not meet targets for good governance and tackling corruption. Against that background, will the First Minister repeat the assurance that he gave in Parliament to people in Scotland that every penny of the money that they donate to the appeal fund will go directly to help people in Malawi and will not be skimmed off?

I will make two comments on that. The first will probably get me in trouble, but that happens from time to time and I want to speak honestly. I believe that some people who are writing about the issues are determined to ensure that the instinctive generosity of Scots is undermined and is not directed towards the people who most need their support. I absolutely condemn the people who have in recent weeks written about Malawi and Africa in ways that grossly distort the truth, and which are intended deliberately to damage the aid charities and others who try to help people in Africa, and to damage the prospects of next week's G8 summit in Scotland, which might change the face of Africa.

Secondly, everybody who is involved, from the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom to the ministers in the Executive to the people in the aid charities to the African leaders who were part of the Commission for Africa report, has been consistently against corruption, misuse of money, waste and lack of transparency in the government and finance of African countries. No one anywhere proposes that we should give money to African countries or Governments, or to organisations in Africa that are perceived as, or that might be caught in the act of, misusing such money. Not one penny of the fund that I established recently, or of the other funds that are being raised in Scotland will go to the Malawi Government; all the money will go to charities and organisations that feed people, save lives and do good work in Malawi. Questions in Parliament that attempt to undermine that effort will cost lives. Members who ask them should think about that.

A welcome dose of reality on the situation in many African states will, in the long run, do the people of those countries far greater service than will wilful blindness to problems. Does the First Minister agree that, if the money that was given to African countries in the past had been spent properly on the necessary infrastructure for economic growth—roads, schools and telecommunications—the massive debts that are now being written off would not have piled up in the first place and those countries would be well on their way to prosperity? Does he accept that we will never make poverty history until we make corruption history?

Of course we should make corruption history, but we should remember that corruption happens in the developed world, too. Secondly, in making poverty history we could wait until every Government in Africa is perfect then channel all the money through them, or we can act today and use the charities and the organisations that raise money in this country and which feed people and save lives in African countries. That is precisely what we will do.

In my view, a lot of rubbish has been spoken in recent weeks about Mr McLetchie's taxi bills. He is not in difficulty, and the Tory party is not in difficulty, because of expenses. The Tory party in Scotland is in difficulty because it is selfish, because it does not care enough about the issues that we are discussing and because it is out of touch with Scottish public opinion. Mr McLetchie's questions show that that is the case. People in Scotland are generous in spirit and they want instinctively to help in Africa. They know that the money should not be misused, so they will direct their money where it is most required and they will do so with enthusiasm. They will speak next week with a voice that the G8 leaders will have to listen to, and we will be right behind them.

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G8 (Right to Peaceful Protest)

To ask the First Minister whether the Scottish Executive will intervene to insist that Parliament's decision to uphold the right to peaceful protest at Gleneagles is implemented on 6 July 2005. (S2F-1778)

I support absolutely the right to legitimate peaceful protest. I expect to see that commitment given by Mr Fox, too. If any members of his party are next week involved in disruptive or dangerous activities that break the law, I expect them to be expelled from the Scottish Socialist Party.

I remind the First Minister of motion S2M-2506, regarding the right to protest at Gleneagles, which I moved and which was agreed by Parliament on 3 March this year. The motion said:

"That the Parliament … resolves to uphold and support the right to peaceful assembly and protest … at the summit itself in Gleneagles."

Will the First Minister accept that the meaning of that motion is that there should be a peaceful legal protest at Gleneagles within earshot of G8 leaders? Will he work constructively with G8 Alternatives this week to facilitate everyone's right to protest against the world leaders whom we hold responsible for world poverty?

Chief Constable John Vine and the police forces in Tayside and elsewhere in Scotland have behaved in an exemplary fashion in the past few months. They have learned lessons from other international summits, they have liaised closely with local people and they have worked hard to ensure that those who wish to protest have a decent opportunity to do so. They have tried time and again to compromise with G8 Alternatives to ensure that, while exercising their right to protest, they do so reasonably, without overly disrupting local people and their lives and without creating dangerous situations. The police have done a great job, for which I applaud them. I urge G8 Alternatives, even at this late stage, to work closely with the police and the local authority to reach agreement about where to protest. I urge them not to break the law, not to cause disruption, not to do anything dangerous and not to damage the good name of Scotland.

The First Minister has the responsibility for upholding motions that are passed in Parliament. Negotiations on the protest have been going on for a year, the motion was passed in Parliament four months ago and the Public Petitions Committee reinforced the decision earlier this week. With one week to go before the summit, will the First Minister provide us with specific details of where that protest will assemble, where it will have the right to march and where the rallying point will be? Will he provide a guarantee to Parliament, based on the motion that was agreed to, that he will work to ensure that a legal peaceful protest takes place in Gleneagles, within earshot of G8 leaders, on Wednesday of next week? Will he give us that guarantee and uphold the motion that was passed by Parliament?

People have the right to peaceful protest in Scotland; Parliament supports that right. However, peaceful protest should be organised properly and co-ordinated with the appropriate authorities. That is what is happening in this case. No-one is stopping G8 Alternatives from organising a protest, but it must organise that protest in consultation with, or with the agreement of, the appropriate authorities. There is an absolute duty on Parliament and the agencies that we fund to take account of the needs of local people and the security of Scotland next week. That is what will happen. I repeat my call to Mr Fox: if any members of the SSP are involved in illegal activity next week, I hope that he will take action against them.

Does the First Minister agree that there is a danger that arguments about the right to protest and the threats surrounding that are likely to overshadow significant local achievements in dealing with the issues to do with the G8 summit? Will he, in that spirit, join me in congratulating the people of Dunning for this week's local Dunning summit? Will he join me in congratulating the students of Perth and Kinross on last night's sterling performance on the BBC programme "G8: The Road to the Summit"? Will he also join me in urging the Prime Minister to declare that the Crieff High School song "Build a Bridge" becomes the official G8 anthem? Does he agree that, instead of arguments about protest, those positive moves should be what we talk about over the next week?

In one day, Nicola Sturgeon has wished me a happy birthday and I agree with Roseanna Cunningham. It is a remarkable moment for our Parliament.

I absolutely endorse what Roseanna Cunningham has said. There are some very interesting things happening locally around Gleneagles, and the people of Dunning are to be congratulated on their mini-summit. That was a fantastic creative idea which has, I am sure, helped the village and people from elsewhere who attended the event. The pupils of Crieff High School and the other pupils in Perthshire are also to be congratulated on their efforts to make the summit an opportunity for them to express their creativity. Although I cannot guarantee what might or might not be the anthem before, during or after the summit next week, I will take the opportunity tomorrow, in London, to mention the song to the Prime Minister.

Does the First Minister agree that our focus must be on what we can do to help Africa, which is why so many people will be demonstrating on Saturday? In that context, will he reinforce the message that Gordon Brown expressed very eloquently this week about the moral case, as well as the business case, for intervention and assistance for Africa? Will he encourage the Prime Minister—a leader of a major country in the G8—to carry on with the strong leadership that has got the issue on the agenda and which promises to make significant progress?

Of course. In addition, I hope that the G8 leaders have not just the good sense to recognise their moral responsibility, but the moral and political courage to show leadership, even the leaders from countries where Africa is not as big an issue in public opinion as it is in the United Kingdom. I hope that they will show the moral and political courage to make the decisions that are required and that they will be remembered for ever as the people who made the right decisions at the beginning of the 21st century and who changed the face of Africa.

On a point of order, Presiding Officer. The motion that was referred to by Colin Fox was passed because people shamefully stand by while 30,000 children die every day. [Interruption.]

Order. I have to listen to what Carolyn Leckie says.

Parliament agreed to uphold the right to demonstrate at the summit at Gleneagles. What action has the Presiding Officer taken to uphold the will of Parliament, and what further action will he take? Can he reassure us that Parliament's will to uphold the right to protest at the summit will be upheld, or is the Parliament just a tourist attraction?

That, clearly, is a request for a policy statement on a policy question, and is not a matter for me.

This is a peaceful protest. [Interruption.]

Order. That is clearly unacceptable behaviour. I order you to withdraw from the chamber. As this is a repeat performance, I will consult members of the Parliamentary Bureau on the penalties that are to be enforced. I must suspend the meeting for a few minutes while the Scottish Socialist Party members are removed.

Meeting suspended.

On resuming—

Given that SSP members are not moving, I suspend the meeting until 1 o'clock.

Meeting suspended until 13:00.

On resuming—