Education and Training (Scotland) Bill
The next item of business is a debate, to last 30 minutes, on motion S1M-956, in the name of Henry McLeish, which seeks agreement that the Education and Training (Scotland) Bill be passed. The timing means that Jackie Baillie will be about eight minutes light on her subsequent statement.
It gives me great pleasure to move the motion. Today's debate, like the debates at the earlier stages of the bill, has shown the strong support for the initiative to extend lifelong learning to all. We all want to make the individual learning account initiative a success and to create a learning nation.
The level of support for the general concept confirms my belief that ILAs will make a major difference to lifelong learning in Scotland. We want to make learning relevant and accessible to everyone, regardless of where they live or what they do. To reassure Fiona McLeod and Fergus Ewing, I will say that we want to reach the areas of Scotland where learning is less accessible. ILAs present us with an exciting opportunity to reshape the culture of learning, so that people expect continually to upgrade their skills throughout life, something that will be essential to securing a job in the future. In that way we can ensure a more vibrant and inclusive economy for Scotland.
I have welcomed the helpfulness of the debate that the issue has engendered. I hope that that has demonstrated the Executive's willingness to listen, to be open to change and to provide assurances. That approach provides a model for us to follow when we review the success of individual learning accounts, monitor progress and make assessments. We will keep the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee involved in that work if it so wishes, as I am sure it does. I wish to thank all members of that committee, and John Swinney in particular, for their support. The pressures have been difficult and I appreciate very much their co-operation in meeting the tight timetable that we have all had to put up with.
I take this opportunity also to thank the many other people who contributed to the development of individual learning accounts, particularly Scottish Enterprise, Highlands and Islands Enterprise and the local enterprise companies, which implemented the important pilot projects from which we learned a great deal. As a result, several changes have been made to the individual learning accounts scheme, and those changes will enable us to meet the ambitious target of creating 100,000 individual learning accounts. I also thank those organisations and individuals who took the time and the trouble to participate in the consultation process.
Individual learning accounts will be a major responsibility for learndirect Scotland, which is the new name of the Scottish university for industry. We look forward to monitoring progress after the launch of the scheme in the autumn.
The Education and Training (Scotland) Bill and the regulations that are to be introduced will give Scottish ministers the necessary powers to ensure that individual learning accounts continue to evolve and to reflect Scottish needs. The whole area of learning is evolving and it is important that I emphasise the changes that we are seeing in new learning centres, with learning being available not only on the high streets, but in football stadiums, shopping developments and the homes of individual learners.
During the passage of the bill, members have acknowledged the potential for individual learning accounts to help the transformation of Scotland into a learning nation—a transformation of the learning landscape in Scotland. I hope that we will all participate in that transformation over the coming months and years. I am pleased that all members of the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee have given their support to this initiative.
I move,
That the Parliament agrees that the Education and Training (Scotland) Bill be passed.
It is fair to say that all parties in Scotland and all members of this Parliament have no difficulty whatever in supporting the aims and principles that the minister described. We must ensure that, in Scotland, skills are improved and education and training are provided. No one could disagree with that statement.
Today we are considering whether those laudable aims will in fact be achieved by the Education and Training (Scotland) Bill, which we are to pass today, and by the programmes that will be implemented by the bill. As the Opposition, we are concerned that there are 10 reasons why the bill will not succeed or will not succeed to the extent that it should. I will cover five of those reasons and Fiona McLeod will cover the remaining five.
First, we are concerned about the basic aim of reaching those who are on the lowest wages and who have the lowest skills. We want the bill to reach the parts that other programmes have not reached. One witness, Bruce Armitage from Scottish Enterprise Grampian, described that as "the Heineken effect". The Parliament's decision not to support amendment 2, which would have provided an absolute guarantee that those on low pay and new learners would benefit from the scheme, means that the bill will fail the Heineken test.
Secondly, many of the witnesses who appeared before the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee expressed a serious concern that the £23 million—or, more accurately, the £16.5 million to be used for grants—would simply be spent on providing training that would have been provided anyway, except this time at the state's expense. That serious, practical concern has not been addressed.
Thirdly, there is the problem of bureaucracy, an issue that has not been raised or emphasised today. We understand that the total budget line is £23 million, but that only £16.5 million will go to grants—to the individuals who are to receive the education or training. That leaves £4 million that will go to the customer services provider and £2.5 million that will be spent on marketing. That means that 28 per cent of the money will be spent on bureaucracy. In comparison, the costs of running the Scottish Parliament run to 0.2 per cent of the Scottish block, so there are concerns that the money will not be going towards meeting its intended purposes.
Fourthly, there are practical problems that we have not addressed. Will the database be ready? Frank Pignatelli has recognised that it will not be fully ready. What about the arrangements for the private sector training provider? Will they be too bureaucratic? That was discussed in committee, but I do not think that it was fully addressed. We now know that the scheme will be launched in August. That means that we have to take it on faith that all the arrangements will be in place. My feeling and my guess is that they will not be and that the scheme will start without the necessary database and arrangements. There will be serious teething problems, which may be inevitable at the outset. That is unfortunate, because we do not want the ILAs to be viewed with the same contempt as the youth training scheme that the Conservatives introduced some years ago.
Finally, much has been said about the fast pace of the bill's passage through the Parliament. It was introduced on 28 April and it will have gone through all its stages in two months. I am concerned that there has not been a proper opportunity for scrutiny. More than that, my main concern is that the timetable of the bill has been entirely determined by two bills proceeding through Westminster. That is entirely wrong. Today, this Parliament will be passing a bill that is simply a Holyrood train running to a Westminster timetable.
It is interesting that we should be discussing the bill after the Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning's statement on the framework for economic development. As I said at stage 1, the Conservatives welcome the promotion of a culture where people take responsibility for their lives and where they reapproach learning and place it at the main point of their being.
As Fergus Ewing said, we have rapidly arrived at the final stage of a bill that enables the minister to introduce regulations. We are expected to trust that the final regulations follow the illustrative regulations. Questions still arise, which we hope the Deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning will address when he sums up. We are still not sure how the Executive intends to overcome the other barriers to learning, even if the funding issue is resolved. Those include the inflexibility of benefit rules, domestic responsibilities, part-time and shift working, inadequate transport and child care provision and the previous low achievement of the people who are likely to enter the scheme.
As we said at stage 1, we feel that it is essential that the Executive consults closely those bodies that have raised important issues in the plans for the implementation of ILAs, including the drafting of the final version of the regulations.
We are still not much the wiser on some of the other considerations, particularly on how employers' contributions will operate and whether they may be withdrawn if an employee fails to complete a course or leaves the employment that has partially funded the course. There has not been any movement on the part of the Executive on the practicality of small firms releasing employees for training. That is a particular concern, given the evidence from Scottish colleges on the poor level of participation and attendance in current schemes. We expect guidelines from the minister on the allocation of funds to employees from public bodies, such as local authorities, health boards, trusts and non-governmental organisations.
We repeat our assertion that we need to move to a unified system of funding for all post-school education and training—a view that is shared by the colleges—and to introduce a passport for education and opportunity that will chart an individual's way through life with their achievements there for all to see.
We still have to examine the role of the customer service provider, which is funded to the tune of £4 million in the first two years. We should also be aware of the provision for marketing, which takes up 10 per cent of the scheme's allocation.
The minister mentioned targets. We believe that there must be clearly understandable targets for progress and implementation and that simple procedures should be adopted, with minimum bureaucracy, to ensure participation by all target groups, especially small and medium-sized enterprises and the disadvantaged.
The devil, in this case, will be in the implementation and the detail. We will watch with interest how the initial phase proceeds. We wish the scheme well in its implementation. We will look out for ease of use, flexibility and user-friendliness in the introductory phase. We are pleased to support the bill.
I want to be positive in this debate. We must remember that the people who will benefit from the bill will not be concerned with some of the arguments that have been advanced today; they will be interested in the fact that they can achieve their goals and aims and start or continue with their learning process.
Individual learning accounts form a central part of the Executive's vision to stimulate a culture of lifelong learning in our society. That is no mean task. If we are to achieve that goal, there must be a culture change and a transformation of current attitudes. We must ensure that it becomes commonplace for everyone to learn and upgrade their skills continually. That is why I support the minister's universal approach. I worked in further and higher education for 16 years and know that the rate of change in the technology sector alone means that people need to upgrade their knowledge every 18 months. The scheme must be universal and open to everybody.
Low pay and a lack of skills go together. Scotland has suffered for too long from both unemployment and skills shortages. The concept of individual learning accounts will encourage individuals to take responsibility for their learning and will put the onus on employers to allow that learning to happen. The Education and Training (Scotland) Bill provides the statutory arrangements for the Scottish Executive to pay grants to individuals for their learning accounts.
ILAs are not just a way of distributing funds to assist with the cost of further education and training; they are much more than that, as they promote learning itself. In the long term, ILAs will contribute to a better equipped, highly skilled work force and ensure that people have a personal stake in and greater control over their personal development. ILAs will raise individual expectations and will deliver the benefits that learning can create. We have talked a lot about social inclusion and exclusion. If people can start learning and upgrade their skills, they can take themselves out of the situation in which they find themselves.
Learning accounts are based on two key principles. First, they empower people to take greater responsibility for investing in their own learning. Secondly, that responsibility for investing in learning will be shared. The Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee, of which I am a member, has received positive feedback on the introduction of ILAs. We believe that the accounts have the potential to make a major contribution to the development of the culture that we have all bought into.
Learning accounts will help people to invest in their learning. Employers, trade unions and learning and guidance providers will all have a key role in encouraging and supporting individuals to participate. The target of 100,000 ILAs by 2002 is ambitious and will require local partnership working to be as effective as we all hope that it will be. The Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee was impressed by the commitment and examples of good practice that were shown in the evidence that was given by those involved in the pilot schemes in the Grampian region and in Fife.
The aims of the bill are to overcome financial barriers and to widen access. We have heard a lot this morning about widening access; we know that we need to reach out to those who for whatever reason feel excluded from education. However, we must consider that in the round, given the many other schemes that can help people, such as the skillseekers scheme for 16 to 18-year-olds, the new deal, and further and higher education—those schemes are all part of the big picture. The evidence that we received from the Grampian pilot scheme supported a universal approach. After making many changes, the people who were involved in that scheme found workable and practical ways forward. That is what we need: workable and practical solutions.
Individual learning accounts are a groundbreaking initiative. They will play an important role in the big picture of combating social exclusion and allowing people from every sector of society to contribute.
We move now to a brief open debate. Members should keep their comments to a maximum of three minutes.
We have heard many assurances and guarantees from Nicol Stephen—the SNP will ensure that those are honoured. We have also heard much about marketing and monitoring. I am concerned that we are leaving some principles behind and that there will be marginalised groups in society until the monitoring and marketing are done and there has been an annual review. I would like the Executive to acknowledge that concern.
A year ago—almost to the day—we heard Donald Dewar talk about
"Scottish solutions to Scottish problems."—[Official Report, 16 June 1999; Vol 1, c 404.]
The debate on amendments 4 and 5 made it clear that the Scottish Parliament is running behind Westminster's coat tails. That is not providing Scottish solutions to Scottish problems. It is an unhappy situation, which must not set a precedent.
If lifelong learning and social inclusion are important enough for Parliament to legislate on, they are important enough for the Government to produce a timetable that allows Parliament to scrutinise legislation effectively. The SNP looks forward to seeing the minister's regulations—I hope that they will be more readily available than the draft regulations, which were delivered to me only this morning. We also look forward to the minister's regular reports to Parliament on the take-up of ILAs. We look forward to as many people as possible in Scotland engaging in lifelong learning, education and training.
As a Liberal Democrat, I welcome the cross-party acceptance of individual learning accounts. I will agree on one thing with those who have criticised the use of regulations by the Executive—the devil will be in the detail.
It is up to Parliament to ensure that the Scottish Executive acts on the good intentions that have been expressed. The bill gives the Executive flexibility to deal with issues as they arise, rather than expecting that we should second-guess where we want individual learning accounts to be in three or five years.
The Executive should focus on how certain aspects of the bill will be implemented. We need special provisions for rural areas—handing one of my constituents on Skye £150 will not create equality of opportunity if that person is hours in travelling time away from the nearest college or learning establishment. Nicol Stephen has assured me that the Executive recognises the costs of transport—we will all seek early action on that matter. Innovative projects such as the Robert Gordon University's internet learning scheme are part of the solution, but the overall solution is more complex and we should examine the possibility of synthesis of the provisions in the bill with, for example, the new deal.
We need solutions to the problems of child care, we need support for carers and we need support for the disabled. We need local delivery of services in our villages and in our deprived housing estates through initiatives such as learning houses. We need to ensure that learning opportunities are taken up by those who need them most. A demand-led strategy alone will fail to reach those who are most excluded.
I have been pleased to receive assurances from Nicol Stephen that action will be taken in response to pilot schemes and to issues that arise as the scheme rolls out. Action has already been taken to remove the requirement for bank accounts, which put off participants in the Grampian pilot.
Like many others, I accept that all knowledge is a good thing. The arts and culture benefit society as much as technical and computer skills do, so ILAs should encompass all forms of learning and should take local needs and circumstances into account. I fervently hope that many learners and institutions will consider opportunities to develop Gaelic learning.
I am greatly enthused by the fact that individual learning accounts are finally becoming a reality, fulfilling a long-standing Liberal Democrat agenda. I call on members on all sides of the Parliament to work together constructively to support the implementation of the ILAs and to ensure that the Scottish Executive takes account of the several important access issues that have been flagged up across party lines.
I look forward to the day when the new accounts will become lifelong learning accounts, with the individual, employers and the state all contributing to a fund that will follow people from job to job throughout their working lives. Perhaps then we will be able to say that we have a lifelong learning society.
The Conservatives have always believed that people should be able to access the training and education that is appropriate to their needs, and the bill goes some way towards achieving that.
The problem lies in access. I was disappointed that Fergus Ewing's amendment, which would have given assistance for travel costs to people living in rural areas, was rejected. Waving banners of accessibility to wonderful courses is absolutely pointless. There may be opportunities all round, but it is tough if people cannot get to them; that is the message that people in rural Scotland will receive from the debate. I have had many letters of complaint about lack of access. Even if a small grant is available, there may not be public transport and the money does not stretch to pay for a taxi fare. The minister must consider that issue and I hope that he will come up with more positive proposals to tackle it. We must not leave out rural Scotland.
Many people have mentioned monitoring. Monitoring the pilots is one thing, but we need good, clear monitoring of the outcomes and delivery of the programme. We look to the Executive to report to Parliament on a regular basis. We are left to trust in the regulations and I was disappointed by the minister's unwillingness to explain fully some of his reasons for turning down the positive amendments that were proposed. The Parliament must not allow regulation after regulation to go through on negative resolutions; we must use this chamber to discuss things fully. That said, the Conservatives support the bill.
I am pleased that all parties welcome the bill, but they need to dampen down their enthusiasm. Fergus Ewing's typical attitude of looking on the bright side regularly cheers us all up.
We must remind ourselves that 100,000 people will take advantage of this initiative to start off on their learning journey. However, it is quite clear that the bill is not just about payment for training. We must establish a learning culture in this country; the new measures will ensure that the partnerships, in the workplace and in the community, that are necessary to bring about that learning culture will be established.
However, there are challenges. Members have talked about access. Whether or not someone is a shift worker or lives in a rural community, the college ain't open this weekend for people who work long hours—not much has been said about that. We must issue a challenge to our colleges to be accessible and to take advantage of the increased number of people who want education.
Will Duncan McNeil give way?
No, we hear from Nick Johnston often enough as it is.
People need access to those colleges. If the colleges do not meet the challenge, there are other providers that will meet it, so they had better get their act together.
There is also a challenge for trade unions. Trade unions need to put training and education firmly back on their bargaining agenda. The bill gives them the opportunity to challenge those employers—the Conservatives have represented them for years—who have not provided the necessary training, education and time off that people need to escape low pay and dead-end jobs. I hope that employers will take advantage of the proposals and that many businesses will, for the first time, establish learning and training budgets in their companies.
Fergus Ewing has criticised big companies for delivering training. Companies such as Scottish Power, which have established a great record of providing training, have been sneered at by Fergus, who says, "Ah, they will just use the budget"—
I did not sneer at those companies.
Yes he did. I hope that those companies will build on what is in the bill and that they will open up their resources to the families of their employees and to the wider community. I genuinely welcome today's initiative and the new rights that it will give people throughout Scotland.
I would like to place on record the thanks of the members of the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee to its clerks for steering us through a piece of legislation that, although pretty straightforward, had to be considered within a tight time scale. I also place on record a point that I have made to ministers: committee members have been concerned about the time scale within which we were asked to consider the bill. It is fair to be asked to consider legislation quickly; however, it is not fair for ministers to argue, as they have today, about the restriction of parliamentary scrutiny of legislation when we are operating to a tight time scale that the Executive itself set. Ministers must reflect carefully on those points.
In its stage 1 deliberations, the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee covered many of the issues that Duncan McNeil raised—for example, on barriers to access, on ensuring that the bill targets those who are least likely to learn, and on ensuring that, out of this venture, additionality is delivered into the Scottish economy and the Scottish learning environment. Most of those points came out of evidence to the committee from useful and helpful pilot exercises. I hope that ministers will listen carefully to the evidence that has come from those pilots and from other exercises. I hope that they will benefit from all the evidence that has been gathered in the process of considering the bill, because issues have been raised to which ministers have not been able to give full and final answers. We have taken a lot of good evidence. Pilots in Grampian and Fife have highlighted a number of lessons that have to be learned—for example, on the way in which the accounts are marketed and on the people towards whom they are targeted. If we can learn some of those lessons, some of the aspirations that Duncan McNeil and others have talked about will be realised. That will happen only if we learn the lessons from those pilots and implement what we learn.
Dark and gloom-laden though the language has at times been, this debate has been generally positive. I thank Fergus Ewing for his support, which was indeed inspiring and uplifting. I also thank Nick Johnston and the Conservatives for their support. Nick Johnston raised many points of detail; I do not think that I would be thanked if I responded to them individually at present.
The bill represents a massive new initiative. It will inject £23 million of new funding into lifelong learning, and 100,000 individuals across Scotland will benefit. I should tell Fergus Ewing that there are already 40,000 learning opportunities on the learndirect Scotland database that will go live this autumn. All that marks a watershed in our approach to lifelong learning; we are starting to change the culture in Scotland towards learning and skills.
We can pick apart the detail or we can be positive and prepare for success. Yes, we will monitor and, yes, we will assess. It is important to put on record our willingness to make changes as monitoring and assessment require. Even more important is that we do not delay, that we are determined to deliver and that we can be distinctive in the delivery of a scheme for Scotland. That is what we will achieve by passing the bill today.