The final item of business is a members’ business debate on motion S6M-17216, in the name of Liam Kerr, on recognising reinforced autoclaved aerated concrete in council and former council housing. The debate will be concluded without any question being put. I invite members who wish to participate to press their request-to-speak button, and I call Liam Kerr to open the debate.
Motion debated,
That the Parliament acknowledges the reported presence of reinforced autoclaved aerated concrete (RAAC) in council and former council housing in Aberdeen’s Balnagask, Dundee, Monifieth and throughout Scotland; understands that, in Torry, around 150 of these properties are privately owned; expresses concern that the buy-back offers proposed by councils may value these properties at less than they were bought for; notes reports that the Scottish Government does not believe that it has a liability to compensate or financially assist affected homeowners; regrets what it sees as the attempt by the Scottish Government to divert responsibility, by reportedly trying to pin responsibility on the UK Government for this devolved matter; further regrets reports of the reluctance of the Minister for Housing to meet the Torry RAAC campaign group and that he has not met with other campaign groups, including those in Dundee, and notes calls on MSPs to utilise all available powers to explore solutions for affected homeowners, including initiating an urgent committee inquiry.
17:39
I thank colleagues from the Greens, Labour, the Liberal Democrats and, of course, the Scottish Conservatives for signing my motion. It is notable, but regrettable, that there is not a single signature from any member of the Scottish National Party. However, I genuinely thank Audrey Nicoll, the incumbent MSP for the constituency that is becoming Aberdeen Deeside and North Kincardine; her refreshing unwillingness to toe the party line and her willingness to stand with me for her constituents contrast directly with the approach of Aberdeen’s absent member of Parliament and that of the council co-leader, Christian Allard, who, last month, was delivering leaflets for himself 70 miles away in Angus. Only yesterday, Mr Allard was quoted as saying that the Torry home owners will be out by winter; that followed on from him asking one owner whether they had considered bankruptcy as a solution.
That aside, in December 2023, nine landlords confirmed the presence of RAAC in 953 council homes; that does not include former council homes. In that year, Aberdeen City Council warned that around 500 homes in the Balnagask area in Aberdeen contained RAAC. Of those, 150 were private homes, whose owners were told that the council would buy their houses at the post-RAAC value. I ask members to imagine the situation: either to stay in a house where the roof might fall in, or to accept the lower price and move elsewhere instead, with £40,000 or perhaps £50,000 of outstanding mortgage left over their head. The consequences are disastrous.
At The Press and Journal’s “Trapped by RAAC” panel event, Torry general practitioner Dr Crofton said that his practice is looking after 60 people with new health problems that the situation has caused. Patients are reporting depression, anxiety, insomnia and stress-related conditions such as chest pains. Some, tragically, have turned to drink, and, in one particularly harrowing testimony, one dad reported that he was considering driving into the harbour so that his family could get the insurance.
Residents report a community torn apart, children separated from friendship groups and elderly and disabled people ripped from their support networks, all for the sake of £5 million, which, according to campaigner Raymond Davidson, could ensure that those home owners got the proper value for their homes and could—literally—move on.
It is appalling and shocking, but not as shocking as the buck passing that we have seen. Campaigners have seen councils and the Scottish Government desperately try to blame the United Kingdom Government. Even today, the new Cabinet Secretary for Housing spent longer pointing at Westminster than proposing solutions, yet RAAC is a devolved matter.
Of course, whenever Westminster tries to intervene directly—for example, on freeports, investment zones or shared prosperity funds—this Government kicks up about undermining devolution. Even were it not so, let us never forget that, in 2020 and 2021, the UK Government gave the Scottish Government more than £97 million to remedy the Grenfell cladding issue. Five years on, the SNP can account for only around £10 million of that having been spent.
Meanwhile, Aberdeen City Council pleads poverty, while ignoring every solution that is put forward by the home owners. I accept that Aberdeen City Council is cash strapped, following years of SNP underfunding. Nonetheless, the council’s budget is nearly £1.5 billion a year, and it makes choices as to how it spends that, with residents being only too aware of the choices that it is currently making.
As campaigners have noted, the former SNP councillor Alex Nicoll explained at last week’s panel event that, under the Local Government in Scotland Act 2003, councils can go to the housing minister to ask for funds to be reclassified, but—as he said—the councils had never collectively done that.
Let us be clear: the Scottish Government has not given a single penny to the Torry home owners. As with the council, that is about choices. The block grant has been at record levels since the pandemic and, this year, it is £50 billion. Last week’s spending review announced an extra £2.9 billion coming to Holyrood on top of that. It is the Scottish Government that chooses not to spend £5 million to alleviate the problem.
However, it is apparently okay that Scotland has spent £3.5 million on independence planning since 2021 and £5 million in three years on public consultations, and that the around 130 Scottish quangos have had £120 million to spend annually on public relations, external consultants, overseas travel and hospitality.
Even allowing for those poor choices, I have flagged a £20 million pot from the Aberdeen city region deal for housing projects of exactly the sort that we are discussing today, and yet not a single penny has been drawn down since 2016. If that money is not drawn down by 2027, it will disappear. It will be absorbed back into the coffers of the Scottish Government to pay for whatever it chooses, which, this week, would seem to be special advisers and lawyers.
Since the turn of the year, I have sent six letters to the Scottish Government, asking it to release those funds, but the former Minister for Housing refused to budge. Then, in early May, Aberdeen City Council said that it and Aberdeenshire Council have made at least 12 applications for the money but are continually rebuffed because they do not meet the criteria.
What are the criteria? The councils say that the Government, in the past nine years, has not told them. I wrote to the housing minister around six weeks ago, requesting urgent answers. He had not the courtesy to respond to me before he slunk away, so, on hearing of the new cabinet secretary’s appointment last Thursday, I immediately forwarded the letter and pleaded for urgent answers. I have yet to receive a response, but perhaps she will tell us all in her closing remarks.
We have heard—and throughout the debate, we will hear—about communities whose hopes and dreams stand on shaky foundations as a result of decisions that were made decades ago and the slopy shoulders of politicians today. Will it take a tragedy, and a Netflix documentary, before the SNP takes responsibility and does the right thing?
The cabinet secretary faces a choice today. At the stroke of a pen, she can instantly make it right for the people of Torry and the thousands of people across Scotland who are trapped by RAAC, and—quite literally—save people’s lives. Alternatively, she can ignore the home owners, follow the instructions of the SNP hierarchy, shift blame and forever reflect on the consequences of inaction. I pray that she chooses wisely.
We move to the open debate.
17:47
I thank Liam Kerr for bringing the debate to the chamber. It is an issue that impacts on our constituents and, although we are on different parts of the political spectrum, I think that we are united in our belief that a meaningful and fair solution can, and must, be found, following what has been a traumatising and life-changing experience that is not yet over.
As we have heard, RAAC has been used in buildings in the UK for many decades. However, the risks that are associated with RAAC have become more commonly known only following failures of the material, which have prompted investigations in both housing and public buildings.
In my constituency of Aberdeen South and North Kincardine, more than 500 dwellings that were built using that material in the construction of the monopitch roofs sit within the Balnagask area of Torry. Twenty months ago, Aberdeen City Council assessed around 360 of the 500 homes or council houses as being at high risk from RAAC. The remainder—around 138 privately owned properties—had previously been sold by Aberdeen City Council under right-to-buy legislation, with many being resold since, and they, too, are assessed as high risk.
Torry is a Scottish index of multiple deprivation priority area, part of which sits in the bottom 10 per cent of deprived areas in Scotland. Generations of families have grown up, and live, in Torry, with practical support flowing across generations in both directions. People know each other well and there is a strong sense of belonging and connection. Crucially, the community does not have particularly high expectations or demands in life—people just want to have a good life.
Following the discovery of RAAC, Aberdeen City Council confirmed its intention to demolish the estate on safety grounds, and tenants have since been rehoused across the city. Home owners now face a choice of compulsory purchase or agreeing a sale at a reduced price that reflects the impact of RAAC on valuations. That has significant financial implications for home owners, many of whom stand to lose many tens of thousands of pounds through no fault of their own.
Over the past year or so, I have engaged with well over 100 constituents, who are bewildered and frightened and feel powerless. I commend council officers and many other professionals who have worked tirelessly to support home owners, including Dr Adrian Crofton and his team at the Torry medical practice, and Eleanor Sheppard, executive director of families and communities in Aberdeen City Council, whom I thank for her engagement and solution-focused approach.
Although the issue that we are discussing is nothing short of a major incident, cost has become a central and challenging theme. On that, I have engaged with all tiers of government and numerous stakeholders to look under the bonnet of the issue to see how we can address the plight of home owners in such a way that they do not lose out. That is simply the right thing to do. It has been a frustrating process, and I deeply regret that we are not there yet.
I also commend the former Minister for Housing, Paul McLennan, for his engagement with me and community members on the situation that faces private owners. I am also grateful for his feedback on his latest engagement with Aberdeen City Council, in which he set out a range of actions that reflect the Government’s commitment to supporting Aberdeen City Council to resolve the situation.
To conclude, I welcome the Cabinet Secretary for Housing to her new role, which reflects the Scottish Government’s commitment to tackling that priority area, and I would welcome the opportunity to discuss the issue with her in early course.
I strongly urge strong leadership—strong local leadership—to effect a timely and collaborative response that is centred on people, not cost, and fairness for everybody who has been impacted.
17:51
I congratulate my colleague Liam Kerr on achieving cross-party support on the topic of the debate. I also congratulate him for his work on it—he is not just standing up for his constituents but raising RAAC as an important issue for the Scottish Parliament to consider.
As this is my first opportunity to do so, I welcome Màiri McAllan back to Parliament following her maternity leave, and congratulate her on her new post as Cabinet Secretary for Housing. I look forward to working with her over the next few months.
I am relieved that the penny has finally dropped for the Scottish Government. I have long argued that housing should be a stand-alone portfolio, and should sit in the Cabinet. That is the only way that we can ensure that the Scottish Government can be held fully to account on progress on tackling the deepening housing emergency. I am certain that one of the many issues that the cabinet secretary will be well aware of is RAAC—specifically, how the Government will remediate properties that are affected by reinforced autoclaved aerated concrete.
I will not ask the cabinet secretary how many properties are affected by RAAC, because we all know the answer that I would get. I tried to obtain that figure from the previous housing minister, but was unsuccessful, because the Scottish Government has not got a clue. We know from data that has been collected by the Scottish Housing Regulator that around 2,500 social housing units have been identified as containing RAAC. However, although 145 social landlords have confirmed that no RAAC is in their properties, some are still investigating. Of course, those figures do not include home owners, many of whom are conducting their own investigations to find out what position they are in.
Despite knowing for years that RAAC could present a serious public health risk, the Scottish Government has failed to address the issue head on. RAAC hotlines have been set up to try to identify the exact number of people who live in homes that are riddled with RAAC, but, frankly, it is embarrassing that we are no further forward than we were when the issue was raised in 2019, after the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service identified the presence of RAAC in fire stations. That is why my colleague Liam Kerr’s members’ business debate this afternoon is important.
On 22 April, at a meeting of the Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee, the former housing minister promised that he would meet local residents in Aberdeen in May. That is on the official record, and I am pleased that that meeting took place. That could have been an opportunity to alleviate the concerns of local residents and for the Scottish Government to commit to a plan to assist home owners to remediate their homes. However, again, we are no further forward.
At the same time, cash-strapped councils face mounting repair bills to fix RAAC in public buildings and thousands of Scots have been forced out of their homes while the value of their properties plummets. As was the case with the 150 privately owned affected properties in Torry, the buy-back offers that are proposed by councils are likely to be significantly less than the homes were bought for. That is a grave injustice that home owners, through no fault of their own, are suffering because of Scottish Government inaction.
Lastly, I raise the issue of the disparity in the approaches that are outlined by local government. Some councils have opted for demolition, while others try to remediate. As there has been no leadership and no direction from central Government, that has undoubtedly led to inconsistency across the board, which means that RAAC remediation is a postcode lottery.
We have a new opportunity, however, as we now have a Cabinet Secretary for Housing who will sit at the top tier of Government. She has an opportunity to do three things. First, she can meet with the campaign groups in order to fully understand their concerns and the issues that they have continuously raised and campaigned on. Secondly, she can create a plan to work with local authorities to ensure that remediation options are consistent and that they prevent upheaval for home owners specifically. Thirdly, she can outline—finally—whether the Scottish Government will assist with the remediation of privately owned homes. That is the very least that the Government can do in order to provide the reassurance and clarity that many people across Scotland desperately need, given that the properties that they own are affected by RAAC.
17:56
I start with an apology, Deputy Presiding Officer, to you, Liam Kerr and other members in the chamber for missing the opening sentences of what was a powerful contribution—I apologise to all.
I echo Meghan Gallacher’s welcome to the cabinet secretary in returning to the Parliament and to the inclusion of the housing portfolio in a Cabinet post, which will, at last, bring the subject directly to the Cabinet table.
This is a fascinating and important debate that has been brought to the chamber as a result of a member’s motion that talks about individuals—individuals who own houses in which they live and in which they want their families to grow up and to feel safe. As has already been adequately shown, the last thing that those people feel is safe. The consequences of that are potentially fatal, although let us hope not. Nevertheless, those families will not be able to grow and mature in a safe environment.
I will return to the housing element, but first I will spend a short time talking about two different situations involving RAAC that have arisen in the south of Scotland, close to Lothian, in the council area of East Lothian. One case concerns a high school and the other involves a theatre. The theatre is operated through trusts and charities by East Lothian Council to further the cultural importance of East Lothian. The presence of RAAC was identified in that building and it has been rendered unusable—indeed, it has been rendered unsafe. Much discussion is going on about whether a new theatre can be built or whether other things can be done towards that aim.
The other case involves Preston Lodge high school in Prestonpans, in East Lothian, which falls very much in my South Scotland region. RAAC was identified there, but it was repaired within months—at great expense—because the school was a private finance initiative school. The responsibility fell on the funders of the school to ensure that education could continue, and financial contributions allowed children who were moved away to continue to be taught in other community buildings. There was a massive incentive to get the school open again, because there was a commitment to providing facilities for education.
I draw an analogy between those two cases and now turn to housing, because where there is a will, there is a way. I look back to the Government’s “Housing to 2040” strategy, which was published on 15 March 2021. In that strategy, the Government said:
“Since 1999, housing policy has been devolved to the Scottish Parliament.”
It went on to say, in bold lettering, that
“This has allowed a new approach to develop in Scotland, one that recognises the central role that housing plays in determining quality of life.”
Finally, it said:
“We have taken a different course to other UK nations on affordable housing supply, Right to Buy, affordability, homelessness, child poverty, security of tenure and energy efficiency.”
In Liam Kerr’s opening speech and in other speeches on how RAAC is affecting home owners, the Government is being put to the test on its own words. I echo Meghan Gallacher’s request: a good start would be to meet all the campaign groups. The second task is to solve the problem for the people of Scotland. That responsibility falls on the Scottish Government.
18:00
I am grateful to Liam Kerr for securing the debate, and I echo other members’ comments in welcoming the cabinet secretary to her new role.
At the heart of the debate are peoples’ homes. For anyone, whether they are a renter or a home owner, the thought that the safety of their home might be compromised—that it might not be structurally sound—and that they might face not only financial loss but immense upheaval must be one of the most unsettling feelings to experience. Our homes are our foundation. They are the place where we should feel safe and secure. They are the place that gives us the starting point for our days and that offers rest and sanctuary.
The Scottish Greens believe that every person deserves a safe, affordable and secure home. Housing is not a commodity but a social necessity. Alongside that principle, it is important to consider the value of public accountability. Public bodies must act transparently. They must consult residents and ensure just compensation or rehousing, especially for those who are hit hardest by the structural failures of RAAC. I will spend a bit of time considering that point.
Across the North East Scotland region, there remains considerable uncertainty about the scale of RAAC. In Dundee, more than 900 properties had been reported as being affected, but that figure was corrected to 887—526 social homes and 361 private homes. In Aberdeen, 504 homes—366 council properties and 138 private dwellings—are affected. At least 26 affected homes have been identified in Monifieth. However, residents, tenants and home owners are concerned that those numbers do not represent the full scale of the issue.
There are multiple continuing investigations, but—this is crucial—the lack of systematic testing by local authorities places private and social housing on not only an unequal but an uncertain footing. We also note that different brand names of RAAC are being treated differently without any clear explanation being given. There are also challenges because more and more documents are emerging that show that the risks of RAAC have been known for a considerable time—at least 40 years. Despite that, some public bodies seem unwilling to admit that systematic surveys or interventions are necessary and that they might even have some responsibility for that.
There are also significant inequalities across Scotland in how communities are being treated. Some councils are opting for demolition and rebuilding, some are offering limited financial support for remediation and some are not engaging with residents at all. However, the emotional toll on individuals, families and communities is common across all areas. Residents are worried and anxious. They fear homelessness or bankruptcy. Their mental health is suffering, as Liam Kerr outlined. Their communities are being destabilised. We must not underestimate the negative impacts that that is having on individuals, families and their communities.
We need co-ordinated action and shared working. I would like to see a national audit that covers private and social properties, with public reporting supported by councils and both of our Governments. We must ensure that the protection of residents is our priority in the matter.
I was glad to have arranged a meeting between the then housing minister, Paul McLennan, and constituents in Dundee who are concerned about RAAC. That meeting took place just last week, following the meeting that Paul McLennan had attended in Torry. Several commitments were made at those meetings, and I would welcome comments from the cabinet secretary and early engagement with her on how those issues will be taken forward.
RAAC has been a known risk for more than 40 years, but, today, families in Dundee, Aberdeen, Angus and beyond face eviction, financial ruin and emotional distress. It is a national crisis that transcends council borders.
We need people-centred and co-ordinated solutions, including full transparency, proper compensation, safe and free housing, retrofit when possible and rebuilding to modern standards, funded together by local government and the Scottish and UK Governments, because nobody should be left in limbo for a place that they call home.
18:05
I am very grateful to have had the opportunity to hear members’ reflections on the debate, and I am grateful to Liam Kerr for securing it.
I am very pleased to make my first contribution in the chamber since returning from maternity leave last week. I am also pleased that this is my first contribution as housing secretary, because we are discussing an important issue.
This has been noted, but I want to put on the record that my being appointed to this role at this time is about the Government stressing the importance that we place on housing. We are identifying the central importance of housing and how much it can contribute to our principal aims of reducing poverty, growing our economy and achieving net zero.
Having said that, and bearing in mind the importance of having a warm, safe and affordable home on a personal level, I offer my sincere sympathies to anyone whose home has been adversely affected by RAAC. I understand how worrying it can be. I put myself entirely in their shoes, and I completely understand why support is being sought and why their local members of Parliament are advocating for them.
I say very straightforwardly that, although the issues should be worked through principally between home owners, their council and Governments, I want to give what support we can.
Let me close off from the outset the issue of meeting residents. Of course I will meet residents—I would be glad to. I know some of the Torry community already—we spent an afternoon together on a matter in my previous portfolio. The only point that I make is that they recently met my colleague the former housing minister, alongside Liam Kerr and Audrey Nicoll, as was mentioned. I say that so that I can—
Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention?
I will take the intervention in a second. I want to reassure them that they do not need to worry that there will be any lack of continuity between their meeting the former minister and their meeting me. I will take forward the outcomes of that meeting, which also goes for the meeting in respect of Dundee.
I will cut to the chase. I am sure that residents would be grateful for a meeting, but they would be even more grateful if you would just release the £20 million, or even £5 million of it, that was promised to Aberdeen in order to get the issue sorted right now.
Always speak through the chair.
I will come to some of the solutions that are on the table in a second, but Liam Kerr included the point about a meeting in his motion, so I want to do him and residents the courtesy of addressing it. I know that solutions are the most important thing.
Before I come on to talk about solutions, I will pick up on a couple of points that are important to put on the record. First, Meghan Gallacher talked of there having been no progress. With the greatest of respect, she is incorrect. I refer her to my colleague Ivan McKee’s statement on 29 May, in which he set out the progress that has been made in identifying and rectifying RAAC in the public sector.
If memory serves me well, my point was about having more talking shops, more ministerial engagements and so on. That is not progress. What people need is confirmation from the cabinet secretary today that, in the case of Torry residents, the money will be released, and they need to know whether the Government will commit to any solutions in relation to funding or otherwise that residents can rely on in order to remediate their homes.
I appreciate Meghan Gallacher’s point. As I have said, I will come on to talk about solutions very soon, but it is important not to mislead the public. Progress has been made. Comprehensive surveys have been undertaken across the public sector, and I am addressing matters on housing today.
The other point to stress is that we must be careful in how we talk about RAAC, which, when manufactured, designed, installed and maintained properly, need not be dangerous and can function in the long term. I urge anyone commenting on RAAC to be mindful of how they frame that. Anyone who suspects that they have RAAC should seek professional help to have a thorough investigation.
I turn to the point that, I agree, is most important at the moment.
The cabinet secretary says that residents should seek help and get a survey, but the cost of that is a challenge in the first place. There are also people who live in blocks and who do not themselves have RAAC while those in a neighbouring property do. That has a direct impact on the value and safety of their property, but they cannot effect any remediation because their property is not directly affected, even though they are, to all intents and purposes, in a RAAC-affected building.
That point underlines the importance of identifying and remediating RAAC wherever it exists, particularly in mixed-tenure properties.
I turn to some of the solutions on the table for properties in Aberdeen. Aberdeen City Council has engaged with us and with home owners on voluntary sales based on market value, although I understand that that is a concern because the presence of RAAC has diminished the market value of those properties. The council has offered disturbance payments and relocation support, and it has met reasonable legal costs incurred in connection with all of that. I know that the option of roof replacement is also being considered as an alternative to the initial agreed position of demolition and that discussions on that matter between home owners and the council are on-going.
On the Government’s part, my officials have received, and are considering, Aberdeen City Council’s request for the housing infrastructure fund, which has been mentioned, to be repurposed to allow the local authority to support efforts with RAAC. I am currently taking advice on that proposal, and ministers will make a decision on it in due course. I also wrote to the Deputy Prime Minister. RAAC is unquestionably—
Will the cabinet secretary accept an intervention?
I am very short of time. Do I have any time in hand?
I can give you the time back.
Thank you. I will take the intervention.
Residents will, of course, ask exactly the question that I am about to ask. We do not have a lot of time, so how soon will that decision be made?
I appreciate that and will endeavour to make the decision as soon as possible. Liam Kerr will understand that I must consider the terms of that decision very carefully.
As I mentioned, I have also written to the Deputy Prime Minister, who is the housing secretary for England. The properties were sold under the right to buy, which long pre-dates the devolution era. That is not buck passing—it is an instance of responsible Governments and individuals bringing together a coalition of responsible and responsive individuals.
I am aware of the calls for a public inquiry and for the establishment of a RAAC register. I think that the latter is impractical, because such a register would have to be continually updated as remediation took place. More importantly, it could have a negative impact on householders, not least those living in the mixed-tenure buildings that were mentioned. Public inquiries take significant time and have significant costs, and the focus, at least right now, must be on finding solutions and getting people settled.
Having people settled and settling the matter is what I want to achieve. North Lanarkshire Council has worked with affected home owners, which demonstrates that, although the issue is undoubtedly complex, we can find a path through it by working together.
My colleague Audrey Nicoll said that a meaningful and fair solution must be found. I want to find that, and I commit the Government to assisting in that.
Meeting closed at 18:14.Previous
Decision Time