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The next item of business is a debate on motion S7M-00380, in the name of John Swinney, on the appointment of law officers. Before the First Minister speaks, I remind members that, under rule 11.3 of standing orders, the question on the motion will be put immediately after the debate.
17:12
I am pleased to nominate to the Parliament a new Lord Advocate and a new Solicitor General for Scotland, to welcome them to the chamber at my side and to welcome their families to the gallery.
I pay tribute to the outgoing Lord Advocate, the Rt Hon Dorothy Bain KC, and I thank her for her outstanding service to Scotland—first, in her previous role, in which she was widely recognised and praised as an exceptional prosecutor, and, secondly, over the past five years, as Scotland’s Lord Advocate.
Dorothy Bain has delivered many outstanding achievements during her time as Lord Advocate. Her commitment to more effectively prosecuting those who commit violence against women and girls has ensured that those who carry out such crimes are more likely to be held to account.
Dorothy Bain is not just an outstanding lawyer—she has led by example. She has taken a personal interest when engaging with victims before a trial takes place, and has acted at all times with grace and with empathy for those involved. As a result, she has successfully argued for changes in the law of evidence in Scotland’s courts, which have allowed more accused to be prosecuted. She has challenged unduly lenient sentences in the appeal court, so helping to ensure that Scotland’s sentencing practice truly reflects the harm that is caused by sexual offending.
Dorothy Bain is an outstanding lawyer with 40 years of unimpeachable service to the public interest in Scotland. She is responsible for bringing to justice more cases of sexual violence by men against women than any other person has done. I thank Dorothy Bain very much for her exceptional service and wish her well for the future.
When I was sworn in as First Minister at the Court of Session last month, the Lord President referenced the importance of the rule of law to the operation of our democratic society. I am going to dwell on the importance of the rule of law in making these appointments today.
The Lord Advocate and the Solicitor General play a vital role in Scotland in the upholding of the rule of law, in the administration of justice, and as guardians of the public interest.
The appointment of the Lord Advocate and the Solicitor General is important to how we uphold the law in Scotland. My proposed appointments of the law officers are based on the substantial experience of the nominees in both criminal and civil law matters.
Since 2021, Ruth Charteris KC has served as Scotland’s Solicitor General. She brings a wealth of experience, having demonstrated outstanding legal expertise and leadership throughout her career. In that capacity, she has earned widespread respect across the legal profession and beyond, making her exceptionally well qualified to serve as Scotland’s Lord Advocate.
Before her appointment as Solicitor General, Ruth Charteris was standing junior counsel to the Scottish Government and a full-time advocate depute at the Crown Office. She has also chaired the fitness to practise panel of the Scottish Social Services Council.
During her time in post as Solicitor General, Ruth Charteris has successfully contributed to the conduct of major cases, including recently before the United Kingdom Supreme Court when she argued for the importance of the independence of the judiciary. Her advice as a legal adviser to me and to the Cabinet in recent years has been invaluable.
Since 2021, together with the outgoing Lord Advocate, Ruth Charteris has taken forward work on reform and putting the interests of victims and witnesses at the centre of our justice system. She has driven that work forward successfully and has demonstrated a strong personal interest in prosecuting human trafficking and modern slavery much more effectively. I have asked her to continue that work as Lord Advocate.
I am in no doubt whatsoever that Ruth Charteris has the ability and integrity to take on the role of Lord Advocate, and I am grateful to her for her commitment to public service in agreeing to take on this important task.
It is important for any Lord Advocate to have a strong Solicitor General by their side, and, having consulted Ruth Charteris, I recommend that Brian J Gill KC be appointed as Solicitor General. Mr Gill is a highly experienced advocate and prosecutor, and a candidate of outstanding calibre. He is currently a full-time advocate depute, which is a role that he has held since 2021.
Mr Gill has acted in many judicial reviews and statutory appeals to the Court of Session and the United Kingdom Supreme Court, and was previously standing junior counsel to the Advocate General for Scotland and the Home Office. He is also chair of the Government’s independent review of the valuation of licensed hospitality properties.
Ruth Charteris and Brian Gill share my Government’s overarching aim to make a difference to the lives of the people of Scotland. I have every confidence that they will continue to reform and improve our criminal justice services. They will do so by leading prosecutors in the establishment of a new sexual offences court, bringing jury trials to a conclusion at the earliest opportunity and concluding complex death investigations as quickly as possible.
Our new law officers will provide honest and consistent legal advice to the Cabinet and ministers. That is the case now, and—as some of my predecessors have said on several occasions— it will continue to be the case even when ministers do not like that advice or do not want to hear it. It is clear that, under the current system, the law officers can, and do, carry out their roles with independence and integrity. They always have done so, and they will continue to do so. That is necessary to uphold the rule of law.
Ruth Charteris and Brian Gill will be a formidable team as Lord Advocate and Solicitor General, and they will serve Scotland well. I commend their nominations to Parliament.
I move,
That the Parliament agrees that it be recommended to His Majesty that Ruth Charteris KC be appointed as the Lord Advocate and that Brian (BJ) Gill KC be appointed as Solicitor General for Scotland.
17:18
The First Minister seeks Parliament’s agreement to recommend to His Majesty the King the appointment of Ruth Charteris KC to the role of Lord Advocate and Brian Gill KC to the role of Solicitor General.
The Lord Advocate has a unique position as both the chief legal adviser to the Government and the head of the prosecution system, which has understandably led to ongoing speculation and concerns about potential conflicts of interest and accountability.
Some serious doubts were raised about the dual role of the Lord Advocate when it emerged that the First Minister was informed of criminal charges against Peter Murrell nearly a year before they were made public. That raises concerns. The public need to know that all criminal cases are handled impartially and without political interference. Public concerns should be addressed, and a parliamentary inquiry into the Murrell embezzlement scandal would address them. However, I understand that the Scottish Government has ruled out splitting the Lord Advocate’s dual role, and has ruled out a parliamentary inquiry into the Peter Murrell embezzlement scandal. In England, the role of attorney general and the post of director of public prosecutions are held by two different people, which seems logical and avoids any conflict of interest.
Subject to Parliament’s agreeing to the motion at decision time, will the Scottish Government confirm what criteria were used when selecting a candidate for the position of Lord Advocate? Were alternative governance models considered before recommending Ruth Charteris KC for the role? Finally, Reform UK Scotland seeks to separate the Lord Advocate’s responsibilities as chief adviser to the Government and head of the prosecution service, therefore we do not support the motion.
17:20
I put on the record my thanks, and the thanks of the Scottish Labour Party, for the work done by Dorothy Bain KC as Lord Advocate over the past five years. Dorothy Bain is a highly regarded professional who has given dedicated service to her country and her profession, and we thank her for that service.
The office of Lord Advocate is one of the most serious and sensitive roles in public life. It requires independence, judgment and a clear sense of public duty. During Dorothy Bain’s tenure, there have been major challenges and changes, including several First Ministers, high-profile police investigations and a change of monarch, all of which situations have required Ms Bain’s expertise.
In that time, serious political questions around the dual role of the Lord Advocate and their duties, remit and responsibilities have emerged. Those are legitimate questions on issues of conflict and compromise, but none—and I stress none—questioned the ability, character or integrity of the individual. However, those are legitimate questions for this Parliament and for the Government, and the Scottish National Party Government’s refusal to properly face up to those questions has left the Parliament dealing with a role that still requires reform.
I emphasise that, in some ways, the failure to address that issue itself is unfair on the occupant of the office of Lord Advocate. Let me stress again that this debate is not about the ability or character of Ruth Charteris or anyone who has held that office before her. Ruth Charteris is someone whom I like, respect and hold in high regard, as I do her predecessor, and I have no doubt that she will do the job to the best of her ability and to the standard that the people in this country expect.
Today’s choice is about deciding who is best placed to occupy an office that remains flawed but central to the rule of law in Scotland. As she has been Solicitor General since 2021, and given her an illustrious career as an advocate and a KC, it is clear that Ruth Charteris is more than qualified for the important role that she is now set to occupy. As she is a highly respected legal professional, I am sure that Ruth Charteris KC will bring her extensive and well-honed experience to the role of Lord Advocate.
Similarly, Brian Gill KC, who is one of Scotland’s most senior advocates, and who has acted in cases on important legislation such as that on the United Kingdom’s withdrawal from the European Union, will bring a great amount of knowledge and insight to the role of Solicitor General.
Both Ruth Charteris KC and Brian Gill KC are highly respected and commended legal professionals, and I am sure that they will do all that they can to serve the Government and, by extension, the people of this great country.
As this new Parliament continues to find its feet following the election, few MSPs would not agree that the need for senior law officers who are committed to the highest standards of public service is clear. In only the past few years, we have seen the need for the people of Scotland to have a clear voice to challenge and engage with the machinery of the justice system, whether it be in relation to the Emma Caldwell case, the Sheku Bayoh case, the scandal at the Queen Elizabeth university hospital, the infected blood scandal, the Post Office Horizon scandal or the ongoing Scottish Covid inquiry.
Behind each of those cases are people, families and communities who have had to fight for answers, and all those issues and more demand the highest quality of legal advice at the heart of Government and a serious understanding of the duty underpinning the law that must serve the people of this country. The law must serve the public; it must not serve the convenience of institutions, the comfort of ministers or the interests of those who are already in positions of power. That is what the country expects from its new Lord Advocate and Solicitor General, and I am sure that Ruth Charteris KC and Brian Gill KC will do to their utmost to fulfil those roles.
Today, Scottish Labour supports the appointments that have been put before the Parliament, but we call again for a serious debate, a plan and a timeline for reforming the role of the Lord Advocate. That should be a serious, constructive debate that is rooted in the public interest.
I take the opportunity again to congratulate both Ruth Charteris KC and Brian Gill KC, and I look forward to engaging with them positively. I thank them for the service that they have already given to our country, which I am sure they will continue to give in the coming years.
17:25
I am pleased to speak in support of the motion recommending the appointment of Ruth Charteris KC as Lord Advocate and Brian Gill KC as Solicitor General for Scotland.
Before I turn to the appointments before us, however, I will take a moment to recognise, as other members have, the significant contribution of Dorothy Bain KC during her time as Lord Advocate. The role carries immense responsibility, and it is often undertaken under intense public and political scrutiny. Throughout her tenure, Dorothy Bain demonstrated a deep commitment to the rule of law, to the independence of the prosecution service and to ensuring that our justice system works for those who too often find themselves excluded from it. In particular, I acknowledge her efforts to help rebalance justice in favour of the marginalised and of victims/survivors of crimes of abuse of power, such as sexual violence.
Whether in relation to victims of crime, survivors of abuse or people whose voices have historically been overlooked within legal processes, she showed a clear understanding that justice is not simply about procedure, but about fairness, dignity and—importantly—humanity. For that service, she deserves our recognition and our thanks.
I also want to recognise the work of Ruth Charteris KC as Solicitor General. Over recent years, she has built a reputation for diligence, professionalism and the deepest integrity. She has brought considerable legal expertise to the office and has played an important role in supporting the work of Scotland’s law officers during a period that has been marked by significant constitutional, social and legal challenges.
The office of Lord Advocate occupies a unique position in Scotland’s constitutional arrangements. It requires not only legal excellence but judgment, independence and a commitment to the public interest. Ruth Charteris brings those qualities to the role, and I wish her every success as she takes on those new responsibilities.
Likewise, I welcome Brian Gill KC as Solicitor General. He takes up office at a time when public confidence in our institutions, access to justice and the protection of fundamental rights remain of vital importance, and all of those are at risk, so I look forward to seeing the contribution that he will make in that role.
I wish both appointees well, and I hope that they will continue the work of building a justice system that is fair, compassionate, accountable and accessible to all. They have my support now and I look forward to working with them over the coming session of Parliament.
17:28
Before I come to the appointments before the Parliament today, I, too, on behalf of the Scottish Liberal Democrats, pay tribute to Dorothy Bain KC—the second woman to hold the post of Lord Advocate in our country. She was very generous with her time with me, and forgiving of my lack of understanding of the law at times. She also brought forward groundbreaking guidance, in particular as regards safe consumption rooms such as the Thistle centre, which I was fortunate enough to visit at the start of this year. That facility has saved nearly 100 lives since it opened, and I think that a lot of that is thanks to her visionary application of the guidance.
I welcome Ruth Charteris KC and Brian Gill KC to their appointments, and assure them of Liberal Democrats’ support this afternoon. These are the highest law offices in the land—it is important that we have people of calibre and respect, and both the nominees before us have those in spades.
However, I say respectfully to the Government that it is perfectly acceptable to respect the legal competence and experience of the nominees before us but to recognise that the case for reform of these offices is now unanswerable. When Dorothy Bain was appointed five years ago, the SNP recognised at the time of the election just preceding that—when it had promised to consult on reform of these offices—that having a Lord Advocate acting both as chief prosecutor and as principal legal adviser to the Government, as a full and active member of the Cabinet, presented many risks.
Those are very different skill sets, and I think that the intervening period has only reinforced and underscored the case for reform. As we have heard, England has an Attorney General to advise the Government, but a separate Director of Public Prosecutions. Similar reform has been emulated in the Republic of Ireland and, recently, in Northern Ireland.
However, I recognise that we need law officers, and we will support the appointment of the nominees before us today. There are big challenges before them both in relation to drug policy enforcement and fixing our broken fatal accident inquiry system. I congratulate them on ascending to these offices today, and we will support the motion before us.
17:30
I thank colleagues for their contributions to the debate. On the specific point that Amanda Bland raised about the conduct of criminal cases, I confirm on the record, as has been confirmed on many occasions in the past, that wherever there is a legal issue in connection with a politician, the law officers are not involved in the scrutiny of that case. That is done independently by representatives of the Crown and it never involves the Lord Advocate or the Solicitor General.
I thank colleagues for the comments that have been made in relation to the service of Dorothy Bain as Lord Advocate. Dorothy Bain has much to be proud of in exercising the role and responsibilities of Lord Advocate, and I welcome the comments that have been made.
I am also grateful for the support that has been expressed for the nominations that I bring to the Parliament. Mr Sarwar made an important contribution when he indicated his confidence in the professional approach and capabilities of the two nominees who I have brought forward for appointment, and I am grateful to him for his comments.
Mr Sarwar and Mr Cole-Hamilton made the point that, while supporting the nominations and recognising the calibre of the individuals whose nominations to serve in these roles I have brought forward, it is also entirely legitimate to consider the nature of the roles and whether there is the potential for reform. I accept that point, and it is important that the Parliament conducts discussions substantially on those questions, because there are big issues involved.
The Government has started work on the issue and, shortly before the election, we published the report that was prepared by the former Scottish Law Commission chief executive, Malcolm McMillan, on the role of the Lord Advocate, which was designed to inform and structure debate on these questions. I am happy to confirm to the Parliament that the Government is willing to engage with parties across the chamber in considering the case for reform, and to ensure that we do that in an open and considered fashion, to ensure that all the relevant issues—there are significant issues involved—are properly aired before the Parliament considers any further change. I should point out, of course, that in order to take forward any reform, we would require Westminster legislation, but that is for some time down the road.
I appreciate Maggie Chapman’s comments. She talked about the importance of the law officers being at the heart of ensuring that our justice system is accountable and accessible. That is the approach that drives the law officers who are being nominated. Obviously, the law officers operate within a legal system in which the independence of the judiciary is sacrosanct, and the roles of Parliament and the Government are clear in those relationships. Fundamentally, ensuring that there is open access to the justice system and that the justice system meets the needs of the public is central to the role that will be taken forward by the law officers.
I am grateful to the Parliament for its consideration of the nominations for appointment today and for the recognition that, in Ruth Charteris and Brian Gill, I have brought forward for nomination as Lord Advocate and Solicitor General two outstanding representatives of our legal profession, who I know will continue to build on the formidable records that they have amassed in protecting the public interest of Scotland. They will do so in new and significant roles as the Lord Advocate and the Solicitor General. I look forward to receiving parliamentary support for their appointments.
Thank you. That concludes the debate on the appointment of law officers.
The question is, that motion S7M-00380, in the name of John Swinney, on the appointment of law officers, be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division. There will be a short suspension to allow members to access the digital voting system.
17:34
Meeting suspended.
17:38
On resuming—
We come to the vote on motion S7M-00380, in the name of John Swinney, on the appointment of law officers. Members should cast their votes now.
The vote is closed.
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I was unable to connect; I would have voted yes.
Your vote has been recorded.
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I would have voted yes as well, but I was not able to.
Your vote has been recorded.
For
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
Ahmed, Irshad (Edinburgh and Lothians East) (Lab)
Anderson, Heather (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire West and Levern Valley) (SNP)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Barratt, David (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)
Baxter, Andrew (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (LD)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North) (SNP)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Black, Dawn (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Bonnar, Steven (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP)
Bouse, Gary (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Briggs, Miles (Edinburgh and Lothians East) (Con)
Brown, Alan (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP)
Bruce, Holly (Glasgow Southside) (Green)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Campbell, Kate (Edinburgh Eastern, Musselburgh and Tranent) (SNP)
Campbell, Michelle (Renfrewshire North and Cardonald) (SNP)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green)
Chou Turvey, Yi-pei (North East Scotland) (LD)
Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab)
Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh North Western) (LD)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Day, Martyn (Falkirk East and Linlithgow) (SNP)
Dijkstra-Downie, Sanne (Edinburgh Northern) (LD)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow Kelvin and Maryhill) (SNP)
Duane, Iris (Glasgow) (Green)
Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
Dunlop, Duncan (South Scotland) (LD)
Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Fagan, Joe (South Scotland) (Lab)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con)
Flynn, Stephen (Aberdeen Deeside and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scot and Lothians West) (Con)
Gethins, Stephen (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Ghani, Zen (Glasgow Cathcart and Pollok) (SNP)
Gibson, Patricia (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP)
Goodlad, Hannah Mary (Shetland Islands) (SNP)
Gray, Neil (Airdrie) (SNP)
Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scot and Lothians West) (Lab)
Hagmann, Katie (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Harley, Adam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (LD)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen and Cambuslang) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hoy, Craig (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Kerr, Alex (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
Kerr, Calum (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Stephen (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Kinross-O’Neill, Kayleigh (Edinburgh and Lothians East) (Green)
Kumar, Simita (Edinburgh South Western) (SNP)
Leask, Kristopher (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Linden, David (Glasgow Baillieston and Shettleston) (SNP)
Long, Joe (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
MacCallum, Morven-May (Highlands and Islands) (LD)
MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP)
Mackay, Gillian (Central Scot and Lothians West) (Green)
MacKinnon, Donald (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (Lab)
Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh North Eastern and Leith) (SNP)
Manivannan, Q (Edinburgh and Lothians East) (Green)
Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP)
McKee, Cara (West Scotland) (Green)
McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Easterhouse and Springburn) (SNP)
McLennan, Paul (East Lothian Coast and Lammermuirs) (SNP)
McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab)
Melville, Lloyd (Angus South) (SNP)
Merrick, Colm (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Middleton, Jack (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Mitchell, Laura (Moray) (SNP)
Moodie, Laura (South Scotland) (Green)
Nevens, Kate (Edinburgh and Lothians East) (Green)
Oswald, Kirsten (Eastwood) (SNP)
Rennie, Willie (Fife North East) (LD)
Roddick, Emma (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Sangster, Katherine (Edinburgh and Lothians East) (Lab)
Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab)
Slater, Lorna (Edinburgh Central) (Green)
Smith, Alyn (Stirling) (SNP)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP)
Stafford, Pauline (Bathgate) (SNP)
Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Todd, Maree (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Young, Jenny (Central Scot and Lothians West) (Lab)
Against
Bannerman, Max (Highlands and Islands) (Reform)
Beresford, Senga (South Scotland) (Reform)
Bland, Amanda (Central Scot and Lothians West) (Reform)
Currie, Victor (Highlands and Islands) (Reform)
Kerr, Thomas (Glasgow) (Reform)
Kirkwood, David (South Scotland) (Reform)
Langan, Jamie (South Scotland) (Reform)
Lindsay, Amanda (Central Scot and Lothians West) (Reform)
MacDougall, Julie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Reform)
Massey, Duncan (North East Scotland) (Reform)
McDade, Helen (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Reform)
Ross, Angela (Edinburgh and Lothians East) (Reform)
Schmulian, Kim (Glasgow) (Reform)
Simpson, Graham (Central Scot and Lothians West) (Reform)
Simpson, Mark (North East Scotland) (Reform)
Smith, David (West Scotland) (Reform)
The result of the division on motion S7M-00380, in the name of John Swinney, on the appointment of law officers, is: For 102, Against 16, Abstentions 0.
Motion agreed to,
That the Parliament agrees that it be recommended to His Majesty that Ruth Charteris KC be appointed as the Lord Advocate and that Brian (BJ) Gill KC be appointed as Solicitor General for Scotland.
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