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Chamber and committees

Meeting of the Parliament

Meeting date: Thursday, September 16, 2010


Contents


First Minister’s Question Time


Engagements



1. To ask the Deputy First Minister what engagements she has planned for the rest of the day. (S3F-2555)

The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Health and Wellbeing (Nicola Sturgeon)

Later today, the First Minister and I will attend the papal mass in Bellahouston park. I am sure that the whole Parliament will want to take the opportunity to welcome His Holiness Pope Benedict, who arrived in Scotland a short while ago, on what is a great day for the whole country. [Applause.]

Johann Lamont

I am delighted to welcome our guests to the country and to my constituency. I will welcome to Bellahouston park anyone else who is heading there, too.

This week’s Scottish unemployment figures showed that a shocking 50,000 more Scots are out of work now than at this time last year. The Salmond slump is hurting families across the country. Our unemployment rate is 8.9 per cent, compared with 7.8 per cent for the rest of the United Kingdom. The gap is growing and is a clear sign of Scottish National Party failure. Will the Deputy First Minister take any responsibility?

Nicola Sturgeon

Johann Lamont is absolutely right to raise the important issue of unemployment. The rise in unemployment that was announced yesterday is of great concern, because we should remember that behind the statistics and our political sparring are people and families. However, in the interests of balance, I point out to her that yesterday’s statistics showed a rise in employment and a fall in the economic inactivity rate. Two out of three of the latest indicators show encouraging signs and show that Scotland is doing marginally better than the rest of the UK. Of course, that does not downplay the concerns that we should have.

More people are in the jobs market, which is why it is encouraging to see from yesterday’s statistics that more jobs are available overall, and particularly in sectors such as construction. We must continue our efforts to create employment. That is why our capital investment and our support for skills and training are important. We must also recognise the risks to economic recovery. One of the biggest risks is the massive cut in capital spending that Labour planned when in government and which the new coalition Government will continue. That risk to our recovery is another reason why the Parliament needs full economic powers.

Johann Lamont

The SNP was left £1.5 billion in the kitty for the rainy days, but the SNP’s problem is that—unfortunately—it squandered that when the sun was still shining. It is one thing to express concern in government, but the Government needs to take action.

Yesterday, we were appalled to discover that 3,000 fewer teachers than in 2007 are in our schools now. [Interruption.]

Mr Russell.

Johann Lamont

The Deputy First Minister’s feeble education colleague is presiding over the lowest number of teachers for eight years. Those jobs are needed by our economy and by our children, to help them. Is that what Nicola Sturgeon calls protecting jobs?

Nicola Sturgeon

Johann Lamont forgot to say that of the £1.1 billion that she mentioned, £600 million was spent by the previous Administration before it left office. She needs to put all the facts before the chamber.

The issue of teacher numbers is very serious, but I am surprised that Johann Lamont has ventured—dared—to raise it. It is a bit rich for Labour to criticise on teacher numbers when Labour-controlled Glasgow City Council was responsible for one quarter of all the teacher posts that were lost in Scotland last year. Two thirds of the drop is accounted for by 12 Labour councils.

We want as many teachers as possible to be in employment. That is why, in this difficult economic climate, it is encouraging that we have the lowest teacher unemployment rate in the United Kingdom. Just yesterday, nearly 200 teacher jobs were advertised on the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities portal. I hope that all of us across the chamber welcome that. Above all, I hope that we welcome the progress for pupils. Class sizes are the lowest on record, thanks to the Administration’s efforts.

Johann Lamont

We do not need an English teacher—me—to tell us that that was not an answer, but we might need a maths teacher to help us count the alibis. It is a different minister but the same approach: “It wisnae me.”

What of Nicola Sturgeon’s own area of responsibility? Already, with the biggest budget ever in the life of the Scottish Parliament, what do we see in the health service, for which she is responsible? Four thousand national health service jobs gone. Fifteen hundred nursing jobs gone. Twelve hundred of those jobs have been lost in the city of Glasgow. We are in serious circumstances. What is Nicola Sturgeon doing to protect jobs, not get rid of them?

Nicola Sturgeon

In the spirit of trying to find some consensus, let me say to Johann Lamont that I, on behalf of the Scottish Government, will take responsibility, as we do every single day, for addressing, as far as we can within our powers and resources, the challenges of the economic climate that we live in. It would be better if, in return, Labour took any responsibility for having created the economic climate that we live in.

I am glad that Johann Lamont has moved on to employment in the NHS. The figures that she cites should not come as a surprise to anybody who listened to the statement that I made on 4 June in this Parliament about NHS workforce projections over the course of this financial year, but let me put those figures in context. Since we took office in 2007, more than 9,000 extra workers have been employed on the front line in our NHS. That is more nurses, more doctors and more allied health professionals.

As I do my job in steering the NHS through the difficult economic climate that has been caused by Labour, I will continue to give important guarantees to those who work so hard in our health services. First, we will have an absolute focus on the quality of care. Secondly, there will be, as a result of those workforce projections, no compulsory redundancies. Thirdly, more staff will be working in our health service at the end of this session of Parliament than there were at the start of it.

Johann Lamont

I hate to think what would happen if Nicola Sturgeon was not taking responsibility. If she defines that as taking responsibility, what would she do if she were not taking responsibility? Her complacency is stunning. If someone takes responsibility, they act on the powers that they have.

Unemployment in the city that we both represent is growing month on month but, as we all know, the only Glasgow job that Nicola Sturgeon is worried about is her own. She is the Cabinet member who is cutting 670 nurses and midwives in Glasgow. She also cancelled the Glasgow airport rail link, and with it 1,300 jobs and apprenticeships that mothers and fathers in my constituency and across Glasgow are desperate to see their sons and daughters get. We know that she is on work experience today, sampling the job that she really wants more than anything else, but the real question about being responsible is, when will she and the SNP stop fretting about their own prospects and start putting the people of Scotland first?

Nicola Sturgeon

I, like every other member of this Parliament, will leave my own job to the good judgment of the electorate, but let me say to Johann Lamont that this Government is working hard in Glasgow and across Scotland to deal with and steer Scotland through these very difficult economic times. That is why we have more modern apprenticeships, for example, than ever before. It is also why such a significant proportion of this Government’s capital investment is in and around the city of Glasgow. I will take no lessons from Labour on the economic climate that we live in, but I will take responsibility—as does every minister in this Government—for steering us through it. We would be far better equipped to get through the economic difficulties that we face if this Parliament had full economic powers. If Labour wants to take more action, it should back that position.


Prime Minister (Meetings)



2. To ask the Deputy First Minister when the First Minister will next meet the Prime Minister. (S3F-2556)

The First Minister has no plans to meet the Prime Minister in the near future.

Murdo Fraser

As we speak, the pipes and drums are playing, the crowds are lining Princes Street and saltires are waving in the air. I hope that the First Minister will not be too disappointed when he finds out that they are not there for him.

Talking of the First Minister, when he announced a bonfire of the quangos three years ago he said:

“That means smaller, fitter and better government—more money for the people’s priorities”.

We learn this week that, since he said that, we have 3,000 fewer teachers but an additional 1,400 bureaucrats are employed in central Government core staff. In the same period, the cost of quangos has soared by more than £600 million a year. When is the SNP Government going to do what it promised and cut the cost of the quango state?

Nicola Sturgeon

Let me say to Murdo Fraser that some of what he has quoted is simply not accurate, but I will come back to that in a second. First, let me remind him that this Government has exceeded by some considerable margin its efficient government savings. It has reduced by more than 25 per cent the number of devolved public sector bodies, delivering substantial savings for reinvestment in front-line services.

On the core civil service numbers that Murdo Fraser quoted, he should reflect on the fact that they reflect the transfer from one part of Government to another of the Scottish Court Service and Communities Scotland, as far as I understand it. When those transfers are taken into account, we see a flatlining position for the core civil service.

This Government is absolutely committed to the importance of reducing the cost of administration. The core administration budget in the Scottish Government has reduced by £14 million, which is right in these difficult financial times.

Murdo Fraser

This is not about the number of quangos or the number of brass plates on doors; it is about their total cost, which has gone up year on year. John Swinney has promised that he will save £39 million a year from quangos, but that comes nowhere near the massive increase in the cost of our quangos of £600 million in three years. Alex Salmond promised smaller, fitter and better government, but the quango state is alive and well with the SNP. Will Alex Salmond’s legacy be a bigger, bloated bureaucracy?

Nicola Sturgeon

I had hoped that this would be one of the relatively few areas in which the Government and the Conservatives could find some common cause. We all recognise the importance of directing as much taxpayers’ money as possible to the front line in these difficult financial times, and we will always look at how we can do better. However, the Government has a proud record. In addition to the achievements that I mentioned in my first answer, we can cite the Public Services Reform (Scotland) Bill. We are slimming down the public sector in terms of quangos, and we have reduced the number of ministers from the number under the previous Administration. For the past two years, we have had a ministerial pay freeze, and we are constraining salaries at the upper end of the civil service. Let me say in the spirit of consensus that I am sure that there is always more that we can do, but I hope that the Conservatives will acknowledge the real progress that this Government has made.


Cabinet (Meetings)



3. To ask the First Minister what issues will be discussed at the next meeting of the Cabinet. (S3F-2557)

As always, the next meeting of Cabinet will discuss issues of importance to the people of Scotland.

Mike Rumbles

On behalf of the Liberal Democrats, I take this opportunity to add our good wishes to the successful state visit of Pope Benedict.

Before the last election, the First Minister published a list of promises for the north-east of Scotland: solving the bottleneck on the A96 at the Inveramsay bridge; reopening Kintore station; cutting travel times from Aberdeen to Edinburgh by 30 minutes; completing the Aberdeen bypass by 2011; and dualling the A90 from Ellon to Peterhead—he said a decision on that would be made within 100 days of his taking office. How many marks out of 10 does Nicola Sturgeon give him for achievement on those five points?

Nicola Sturgeon

I remember the experience of Wendy Alexander—I am not sure whether she is in the chamber today—when it came to awarding marks, so I will steer clear of that particular pitfall.

I know that Mike Rumbles takes a sincere interest in issues relating to the north-east because of his own constituency interest, so let me just mention a few of this Government’s achievements in the north-east of Scotland. There have been Aberdeen to Edinburgh rail improvements, such as the opening of Laurencekirk station. The Aberdeen western peripheral route is, of course, stalled because of court action.

Let me mention another issue that I know is close to Mike Rumbles’s heart: dentistry in the north-east. There is an increasing number of dentists in the north-east, and the new Aberdeen dental school was a big capital investment, which is really important for the health needs of the people of Aberdeen and other areas.

The Government is making real progress, but in the spirit of humility for which we are renowned we will continue to appreciate that there will always be more that we can do.

Mike Rumbles

I notice that the Deputy First Minister avoided answering the question. I asked her to respond to the long list of failures that I set out, and I asked her how she graded the First Minister on them—her response did not sound like a great endorsement.

The Scottish National Party Government is coming to the end of its term of office. What about the years when it had more money at its disposal than any Government in history has had? Why was not the north-east taken seriously during those years on all the points that I listed? The First Minister is not here, so the Deputy First Minister can tell us what she really thinks—

Oh, what a waste of a question. Tavish will be—

Mr Swinney!

Among so many other things, the First Minister has failed the north-east on Inveramsay, on Kintore station, on the A90 and on travel times. Will any of those projects even be started before the SNP Government leaves office next year?

Nicola Sturgeon

I will come to my rating of my leader in a second; on the basis of Mike Rumbles’s performance, it is clear that he has come to the Parliament with the clear objective of making his leader look good. As everyone knows, I rate my leader very highly on all matters.

I correct Mike Rumbles on a point of detail. He said that the SNP is coming to the end of its term of office. I make a minor correction: the SNP is coming to the end of its first term in office.


Spending Review (Trade Union Involvement)



4. To ask the First Minister what discussions the Scottish Government has had with trade unions on the implications of the forthcoming 2010 spending review. (S3F-2558)

The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Health and Wellbeing (Nicola Sturgeon)

We face cuts in the Scottish budget, which are being imposed on us by Whitehall. We are clear that the cuts go too fast and too deep. It is also clear that although the coalition Government inherited two thirds of the cuts, it is responsible for adding the remaining third.

If the United Kingdom Government persists in making those cuts, the cuts will affect everyone in Scotland, either as users or as providers of public services. Against that difficult background, we have had and will continue to have positive and constructive discussions with the trade unions on the challenging issues. Our shared aim is to reduce as far as we can the disruption that Whitehall’s cuts will inevitably cause to people in Scotland.

Brian Adam

Does the Deputy First Minister agree that although the majority of cuts were imposed by the previous, Labour Administration after its disastrous financial mismanagement, the cuts that the Tory-Lib Dem coalition proposes go too far and too fast and will undermine many jobs throughout the country?

Nicola Sturgeon

I absolutely agree with Brian Adam. Particularly in light of Johann Lamont’s questions, it is worth reminding ourselves that £2 out of every £3 of the cuts that the coalition Government is planning were first planned by the Labour Government. Labour members would do well to remember that when they discuss the matter in future.

The most worrying cut that we face is the massive cut in capital spending, which was planned by the Labour Government. The Scottish Government has worked hard to increase and accelerate capital investment, particularly in housing, to protect jobs in the construction and other sectors. The looming cut in capital spending puts that work at risk, and Labour cannot escape responsibility for it.

John Park (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)

Most of the unions that I have spoken to predict a period of job losses across the public sector in Scotland. Can the Deputy First Minister confirm that the Government’s policy of no compulsory redundancies in Scottish Government departments will continue during the next period? Will she also clarify what steps the Scottish Government will take during the next few months and years to ensure that voluntary redundancy is maximised across the public sector and that compulsory redundancies are minimised?

Nicola Sturgeon

I thank John Park for his question and the constructive tone in which he asked it. Everyone in the public sector, and throughout Scotland, is extremely aware of the pressures on public sector head count because of the economic circumstances that we face. In this comprehensive spending review period, the Government has had a policy of no compulsory redundancies, which I know has been important in the health service. As the member is aware, the Government cannot take final decisions about the next spending review until we hear the details of it on 20 October. However, that will be considered in the round. There are a variety of voluntary redundancy schemes in different parts of the public sector throughout Scotland. However, I echo and endorse the tenets of John Park’s question, which is that we want to avoid compulsory redundancies.

Given the situation inherited from Labour, what level of cuts in public spending would not be too far, too fast?

Nicola Sturgeon

David McLetchie should reflect on the fact that it is not just this Government that says that the cuts planned by the coalition Government go too far, too fast; that is also the view of the International Monetary Fund. A possible point of agreement between the two sides of the chamber is that we know that the economic mess that we face was created by the previous, Labour Government. While there is no doubt that that has to be managed, we believe that the cuts are too far and too fast and that they jeopardise economic recovery and jobs. For that reason, they should be opposed.

Jeremy Purvis (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)

Last week, the First Minister told Parliament that there should be no reductions at all in the Scottish budget. On Tuesday, the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Sustainable Growth told the Finance Committee that there was no doubt that there should be reductions in the Scottish budget, owing to the unprecedented level of debt in the United Kingdom. Who does the Deputy First Minister agree with, the First Minister or the finance secretary?

Nicola Sturgeon

In all seriousness, Jeremy Purvis cannot suggest that anyone in this Government says that the deficit does not have to be dealt with. Everyone agrees that the deficit has to be dealt with. The question is what timescale should apply to that, and at what pace it should happen. I believe that the cuts proposed by the coalition Government—which, let us not forget, includes the Liberal Democrats—go too far, too fast. The IMF, for example, proposed far less than the UK Government is proposing. If the UK Government was seriously interested in protecting jobs and economic recovery, it would reconsider its plans.


Alcohol (Caffeine Content)



5. To ask the Deputy First Minister what the Scottish Government’s position is on moves to limit the amount of caffeine in ready-mixed drinks. (S3F-2568)

The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Health and Wellbeing (Nicola Sturgeon)

I know that Labour has concerns about the possible effects of consumption of pre-mixed caffeinated alcoholic drinks, particularly in relation to criminal behaviour. Although Labour took a view on minimum pricing before the evidence had been presented, I have consistently said that I remain open to considering any proposals by Labour, or others, that can contribute to reducing alcohol-related harm. However, in order for an amendment on limiting caffeine in alcoholic drinks to comply with European law, evidence needs to be provided to show that such an amendment is necessary in order to protect health or to prevent crime. Yesterday, experts told the Health and Sport Committee that there was no such evidence. If Labour members have evidence, I invite them to bring it forward.

Dr Simpson

In evidence to the Health and Sport Committee yesterday, Bob Hamilton said that there was no association between violence and tonic wine. However, this is the same Bob Hamilton who told a BBC investigation:

“I think it’s clear from the figures that there is an association there.”

The study on minimum unit pricing was an econometric study only. There is other evidence, such as Mary Claire O’Brien’s research, which shows a highly significant link between caffeinated alcohol, heavier drinking, more frequent drinking, more sexual predation and more risk-taking behaviour. That is backed by NHS Scotland, which said in evidence to the Labour commission:

“We think there is now sufficient information to restrict the amount of caffeine in combination products.”

The evidence is available. The Government should support the proposed amendment.

Nicola Sturgeon

The difference between me and Richard Simpson is that I listen to the evidence on alcohol. If he has such evidence, he should present it formally. I assure him that the Government will consider it carefully.

The only consistency in Labour’s position on alcohol so far is that it has ignored the evidence. It is ignoring the evidence on minimum pricing and it has brought forward a so-called alternative to minimum pricing that the chair of its own alcohol commission told the Health and Sport Committee yesterday had no evidence to support it. Now, it is making a proposal, the evidence for which is limited and rather questionable.

Yesterday, Bob Hamilton said clearly that violence cannot be attributed to caffeine consumption. What he actually said was, “We don’t attend many violent disturbances outside coffee shops. It’s the alcohol that gives us greatest concern.” It is about time that Labour and, in particular, Richard Simpson—who, as a doctor, should know better—woke up to that fact.

Ian McKee (Lothians) (SNP)

I draw the Deputy First Minister’s attention to the evidence that was given to the Health and Sport Committee yesterday, not just by Chief Superintendent Bob Hamilton, but by Dr Alasdair Forsyth of the Glasgow centre for the study of violence, who said, “There’s no research to suggest that mixing caffeine and alcohol is related to mood in any way, either making you more aggressive or less aggressive.” He also pointed out, “If you got rid of pre-mixed alcohol-caffeine products, people would just mix their own, and bars can mix them for people.” Does the Deputy First Minister agree that if the experts are unconvinced that such a ban would work or could even be enforced, Labour will really struggle to convince members of this Parliament?

Nicola Sturgeon

Yes, I agree, although I repeat what I said earlier: I remain open-minded about anything that can help us to reduce the damage that alcohol does.

As I also said earlier, the real problem with Labour’s position on alcohol is that it ignores the evidence. I say to Ian McKee that it is really unfortunate that even though so many experts—including the police, doctors, nurses, public health experts and growing sections of the alcohol industry—say that minimum pricing is the right thing to do, Labour continues to ignore that. It is time for us to build the consensus that Scotland needs on this issue. When Labour finally decides to join it, as I am sure it will one day, I will be the first to welcome it.


Older People (Care Funding)



6. To ask the Deputy First Minister what discussions the Scottish Government has had with local authorities regarding the reported £1.1 billion funding gap in care for older people by 2016. (S3F-2562)

The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Health and Wellbeing (Nicola Sturgeon)

The Scottish Government has regular discussions with local government on issues of common interest, including funding issues. The substantial cuts that we expect the United Kingdom Government to announce next month will present us with huge challenges, but until we know the full scale of those cuts, it would be premature to speculate on specific amounts.

Our commitment to funding and maintaining front-line services that protect the most vulnerable in society is, I believe, supported across the chamber. I assure the member that we are working extremely closely with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities on how best we can continue to meet our shared priorities and to devise, through the reshaping care for older people programme, a new model of health and social care in Scotland that is fair, affordable and sustainable for the future.

Nanette Milne

Does the Deputy First Minister agree with the SNP deputy leader of East Renfrewshire Council, who has suggested that tax rises or direct charging for care should be introduced to meet the predicted shortfall? If not, what does the Scottish Government intend to do to help councils to meet their obligations to provide free personal care for the elderly?

Nicola Sturgeon

As the member is aware, this Government is providing record funding to local government, which now has a bigger share of total Scottish Government funding than in the past; it certainly has a bigger share than was the case under the previous Administration.

This Government’s commitment to the continuation of free personal care is absolute. The provision of free personal care is one of the Scottish Parliament’s proudest achievements. In a letter in today’s Herald, the Princess Royal Trust for Carers points out that moving away from free personal care would be harmful not just to those who are eligible for that benefit, but to their carers and families. I think that everyone in Parliament agrees with that, so perhaps we can end—or nearly end—today’s First Minister’s question time on a note of consensus. Free personal care is here to stay.

Could the recommendations of the Arbuthnott review of Clyde valley local authorities form part of the solution to bridging the funding gap on care for the elderly?

Nicola Sturgeon

The Arbuthnott review makes lots of interesting recommendations. John Arbuthnott is, of course, a former chair of Greater Glasgow and Clyde NHS Board, so he is well aware of the challenges that are involved.

We have a responsibility to look at how we further share services and integrate the public sector to ensure that those who benefit from the services that we provide do so appropriately. There is a great deal to be said for further integration of health and social care, not just because of the efficiencies that could be delivered, but because of the improved outcomes for those who use health and social care services that could result from such an approach.

12:30 Meeting suspended until 14:15.

14:15 On resuming—