Meeting of the Parliament

Meeting date: Tuesday, February 7, 2023

Official Report 1000KB pdf

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Topical Question Time

The next item of business is topical question time. In order to get in as many questions as possible, short and succinct questions and responses would be appreciated.

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Teachers Strikes

To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide an update on what steps it is taking to bring the strike action by teachers to an end. (S6T-01164)

We remain in talks with unions, and recent dialogue has focused explicitly on the potential areas of compromise, with a view to reaching an agreement that is acceptable to all sides. Only the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, as the employer, can make a formal offer to the teaching unions.

I met the general secretary of the Educational Institute of Scotland on Friday last week, and I had discussions with the other teaching unions on the same day. There remains a shared commitment to continuing that dialogue.

Déjà vu. This is a mess of the cabinet secretary’s own making. Shirley-Anne Somerville is the cabinet secretary and she is responsible, but she shows not one ounce of energy or urgency to resolve the dispute. There is now a clear threat to the exams timetable. After everything that our young people have been through, the cabinet secretary should be ashamed. On Sunday, she was on television, more interested in purging the Scottish National Party of dissidents than in settling the dispute with Scotland’s teachers. She said that everyone should get around the table. However, two weeks ago, she made it clear that she was not even in the room, let alone at the table. Will she now take a place at the table and take an active part in the talks to end the teachers strikes?

Why has the Deputy First Minister been parachuted into the dispute? Is that an admission of Shirley-Anne Somerville’s failure?

Not for the first time, Mr Kerr’s questioning suggests a lack of understanding of the workings of the Scottish Negotiating Committee for Teachers, in particular. I point out that the only way in which the issue could be resolved today would be by the Scottish Government and local government agreeing to the union pay demands. That is simply unaffordable and unsustainable. If that is what Stephen Kerr is suggesting, perhaps it is just as well that he does not have responsibility for the public finances.

I said very clearly at the weekend—and I will do so again—that I am confident that the discussions that are being had involving the Scottish Government, councils and the Scottish Qualifications Authority will ensure that the exam diet will not be threatened, even if teaching unions choose to undertake industrial action during that time.

I understand perfectly what the process looks like and how it should be conducted. While Nicola Sturgeon is happy to meet representatives of other public service unions, apparently the cabinet secretary is not prepared to get involved in speaking to Scotland’s representatives of teachers.

We are 312 days in, and it is clear that the cabinet secretary’s policy is to do nothing. Despite what we have just heard, there is now a very real threat to the exams timetable. The cabinet secretary has no intention of settling the pay dispute in this financial year. It is her deliberate policy to do nothing, and her inaction is letting down Scotland’s children and young people. She is showing disdain for teachers. The cabinet secretary has no interest in negotiating a deal in this financial year. Can she tell me that I am wrong?

I am not entirely sure that Mr Kerr listened to my original answer. If he had done so, he would have heard that I met the general secretary of the EIS on Friday—that is the latest of many meetings—and that I had discussions with the other trade unions on the same day. We have an on-going commitment that that dialogue will continue.

It does no one—not Scotland’s children and young people, in particular—any use whatsoever to continue the scaremongering around the exams. I dealt with that in my previous answer.

I say once again that the Scottish Government, councils and teachers came together during the pandemic to do our utmost to support young people preparing for exams. I appreciate and respect the fact that unions have a mandate to take continuing action should they wish to do so, but there is a shared endeavour to support our children in the build-up to and during exams. That remains in place with the Scottish Government and our agencies, and I am confident that, working together, we will have contingencies in place so that the exam diet is not threatened.

Only last month, the Tory education secretary at Westminster snubbed striking teachers down south by saying that

“We didn’t negotiate the pay”

with teaching unions because

“that’s not what we’re there to do”,

while at the same time trying to crack down on collective action with draconian anti-strike legislation. Can the cabinet secretary provide a renewed commitment that no stone will be left unturned in Scotland to find a fair and sustainable agreement with the teaching unions?

Jackie Dunbar is quite right to emphasise that the resolution must be fair, affordable and sustainable. The Government is absolutely committed to the continuation of the Scottish Negotiating Committee for Teachers, and we are resolutely opposed to the anti-trade union legislation that is being proposed by Stephen Kerr’s colleagues in the United Kingdom Government—something that, I note, Stephen Kerr has not come out against today, and nor have other Tory MSPs, as far as I am aware.

Yesterday the cabinet secretary took to the airwaves to warn unions not to disrupt exams. The Government has a brass neck to warn anyone about the conduct of exams. It is the teaching workforce that has bailed the Government out of its SQA disaster for the past three years. The response to that rhetoric today is more strike dates, and those who are unfortunate enough to have the cabinet secretary as their MSP are among the worst affected.

We are back in the 1980s, are we not? Michael Forsyth, George Younger, Peter Fraser and Malcolm Rifkind were all targeted by the teaching unions. How on earth did we end up here? When will the cabinet secretary do the job that taxpayers have sent her here to do? When will she sanction an offer, get it on the table and get a deal done?

With the greatest respect to Michael Marra, I return to the point that I made earlier: if the pay dispute were to be resolved today, the Scottish Government and local government would have to agree to union pay demands that are unaffordable and unsustainable. Is that actually what Michael Marra is asking us to do? That is the reality of the situation that we are in.

We will continue to work very closely with councils and the SQA to ensure that contingencies are in place. There are, of course, the support mechanisms that were already in place through Education Scotland to provide support for the national e-learning offer, for example, as we work towards the exam diet and provide support for it.

I would say in response to the escalation of strikes that has been proposed by the EIS today that, while it can choose to target action that impacts on some children and young people more than others, and while it can choose to escalate the strike, none of that changes the financial reality that we are operating in, and it does not change the need for all parties to compromise accordingly and find a settlement that is fair and affordable.

Week after week, no offer has been made to the teachers, and they have been insulted with claims that they are paid quite enough. Is the education secretary not even a little bit worried about the deep damage that she is inflicting on the special relationship between the teaching profession and the Government? Does she not understand that this situation could last for generations and that it could ultimately damage our pupils?

I appreciate that the Scottish Government and trade union colleagues remain some distance apart on the matter of pay. However, I would point to the continued work that we are all doing on other issues, with the exception of pay. That is an important point. I pay tribute to the fact that, despite the fact that we have a dispute around pay, we are continuing to work together for the benefit of children and young people in other areas. That is the important and responsible thing for the Scottish Government to do. It is also the important and responsible thing for the teaching unions to do—which they continue to do, and I pay tribute to them for that.

I listened to the cabinet secretary at the weekend with utter dismay, and I have to say that I did the same today. Does she not realise the damage that is being done to children’s education across Scotland? What the cabinet secretary said at the weekend suggested that the Government is willing to allow the strike to run and run, doing more and more damage.

Does the cabinet secretary accept that, in the end, it is for the Government to resolve the dispute, which it will do only by taking a better pay deal to the table? The sooner it does that, the better it will be for all children across Scotland.

We all—the Scottish Government, local government and the teaching unions—want to see the pay dispute resolved. I reiterate what I have said about the financial reality of the situation, which is the financial reality that we all have to deal with in trying to compromise and find a way forward. It is very important that, as a Government, we find a way through this situation that is fair and affordable for teachers and for other colleagues in the public sector who have already settled their pay disputes with the Scottish Government.

Every single day and every single week, we will continue to endeavour to ensure that the dispute is brought to an end. In the meantime, my work will also focus on protecting the education of children and young people in the run-up to their exams.

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M&Co (Closure)

To ask the Scottish Government what its response is to reports that M&Co will close all of its 170 stores, resulting in almost 2,000 job losses. (S6T-01171)

The people affected by that development are our immediate priority. This is, of course, a difficult time for the company’s staff, their families and the local areas that are affected. I met the administrators of M&Co on 19 January to discuss the situation and to consider what support the Scottish Government could offer. Regrettably, the company has not secured a buyer.

The Scottish Government is in contact with the administrators and stands ready to offer what support it can to those facing redundancy in Scotland, including through our partnership action for continuing employment—PACE—initiative for responding to redundancy situations.

M&Co has been an iconic Scottish brand and a welcome presence on our high streets for decades. Although I acknowledge that the brand will be retained by AK Retail Holdings, jobs in stores are set to go by Easter. That is a devastating blow for nearly 2,000 M&Co employees throughout the United Kingdom, which includes around 600 in Scotland and those at the headquarters in Renfrewshire, which is also set to close.

I know from my experience—and the minister will know from his experience—that those workers have provided a friendly and helpful service to their customers over many years. If any other industry was to lose that many jobs, the Scottish Government would rightly be all over it. Retail should not be any different. As my Labour colleague Katy Clark suggested, is the Government considering setting up a ministerial task force to support the workers in order to lessen the blow of this devastating news?

I echo Mr Bibby’s sentiments in recognising the tremendous workforce at M&Co. I have given an undertaking, and I am happy, to consider any proposals for further action that the Scottish Government can take.

On the request for a task force, task forces often respond in a place-based manner. Given the disparate nature of the workforce across multiple sites, a task force might not be the best means by which to respond. However, I do not want to preclude any options at this stage, and I am more than happy to meet the member and Ms Clark to discuss in further detail what action could be taken.

I have to disagree with the minister. I think that the disparate nature of the workforce across many communities in Scotland reinforces the need for a task force.

The workers at M&Co have demonstrated excellent customer care skills and they need our support to find other employment. Stores such as M&Co have been the lifeblood of our town centres for decades, but high street retailers are struggling to survive, given the unfair competition with online giants and rising energy costs, and their customers are struggling in a cost of living crisis.

There are nine M&Co stores alone in the west of Scotland. The minister will be well aware of the stores in Johnstone and Paisley.

We must have a question, please.

In addition to helping the affected workers, what new action will the Scottish Government take to reverse the economic decline of our town centres?

Mr Bibby eloquently outlined many of the systemic challenges that our retail sector is facing, from changing consumer habits to the growth of online sales.

We are taking a range of action through our retail industry leadership group, which is taking forward our retail strategy. We are progressing our town centre action plan. Indeed, I am co-chairing the first meeting of the town centre action plan forum with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities tomorrow. We are also progressing proposals around community wealth building. Next week, we will formally adopt national planning framework 4, which embeds the town centre first principle. That will help to ensure that we see a greater concentration of economic activity in our town centres. One way in which that will be supported is to have a bigger population in our town centres; increasing population density in our town centres is vital to secure the demand for local services, including retail.

In addition to extending an invitation to Neil Bibby and Katy Clark to discuss the specific challenges around M&Co and the immediate response to those, I am also happy to engage with them—and with any other member, for that matter—more generally on how we ensure that Scotland has a thriving retail sector for years to come.

The news is another devastating blow to our high streets and to those who work for M&Co. There is real pressure on retail businesses and communities across the country. The Fraser of Allander Institute has reported that 75 per cent of firms expect weak growth in the coming years and just 5 per cent of Scottish firms feel more confident about the outlook of their business after the budget. Given that it is clear that the Scottish budget has provided little encouragement to Scotland’s businesses, what new action is the Scottish Government now considering to prevent further closures on our high streets and the loss of more jobs and livelihoods?

The proposed budget, which the Parliament is considering, provides the most generous package of support in relation to non-domestic rates, with 95 per cent of subjects in Scotland liable to a lower tax rate than they would be liable to elsewhere in the UK. About 50 per cent of retail and hospitality subjects will pay no rates at all because we provide the UK’s most generous small business bonus scheme.

I will not rehearse the points that I made in my response to Mr Bibby, but I refer Jamie Halcro Johnston to that answer, in which I highlighted the range of strategic and co-ordinated action that we are taking in partnership with local government and directly with the sector. That action is buttressed by significant funding, which is being delivered in partnership with local government through, for example, the place-based investment programme and the vacant and derelict land investment programme.

This news will be of significant concern to many of my constituents who are employed at the M&Co headquarters, which is based in my Renfrewshire North and West constituency. I have requested a meeting with the employer to establish what support it is providing to those whose jobs are being cut.

Can the minister provide any further information at this stage regarding the steps that the Scottish Government can take to provide support to people who face redundancy and to help them to find similar employment locally?

At this time, there are no dates for when individual stores will close and redundancies—including at the distribution centre and among the remaining head office staff at the Renfrew site—will occur. However, the administrators have assured us that it is their aim to provide as much notice as possible to the Scottish Government and the impacted individuals.

The administrators have already notified PACE, Jobcentre Plus, the Insolvency Service and the redundancy payments service in order that they can provide support to people at the relevant time. In December, the PACE national team met the administrators to discuss support for staff who are made redundant, and it has provided further information about the help and support available.

The administrators have confirmed that no offers have been made that would result in the transfer of the company’s stores or staff. Of course, those job losses are in addition to the proposed job losses at the Amazon site in Gourock, which is also in the west of Scotland.

I am very grateful to the minister for his offer to discuss the creation of a task force. Does he agree that, as well as ensuring that we provide every support to any staff affected, we must prevent more buildings from becoming empty in town centres in the west of Scotland?

Absolutely. I thank Katy Clark for the constructive way in which she has engaged on the issue. She makes a very important point about the cumulative effect in the west of Scotland of recent announcements.

I will not repeat the points that I have made, but we are taking a range of actions to address the issue of vacant shops. Shortly, I will publish the Government’s response to phase 2 of the permitted development rights review. I will not anticipate what will be in that, but it is another strand of the action that we are taking to support our town centres. I look forward to picking up this conversation when we have the opportunity to meet.