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Chamber and committees

Meeting of the Parliament

Meeting date: Thursday, December 2, 2010


Contents


First Minister’s Question Time


Engagements



1. To ask the First Minister what engagements he has planned for the rest of the day. (S3F-2747)

The First Minister (Alex Salmond)

Later today I will be taking forward the Government’s programme for Scotland.

I should say to the chamber that we applied yesterday evening for a derogation on the limits on drivers’ hours, initially in the interests of securing animal feed supplies, although it may be extended today to fuel deliveries. It is not something that we do lightly, but I am sure that members will appreciate that it is a wise move to make in the current circumstances in Scotland.

Will the First Minister agree that, if his much-promised 1,000 extra bobbies on the beat are actually bobbies stuck in the back room, his promise on police numbers is just a con?

The First Minister

No. We have a record number of police officers in Scotland—1,190 more than when we took office and 1,190 more than we were promised by the Labour Party at the previous election. Despite the extraordinary pressure on Scottish budgets, thanks to our deal with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities—except the Labour Party, unfortunately—we have every opportunity to maintain the record numbers of front-line police officers in Scotland. Everyone should welcome that achievement.

Iain Gray

I am all in favour of police officers; I just think that they should be out on the beat, policing. The reality on the ground is as described to me by a civilian custody support worker who contacted me to say that he is to lose his job, but only after he has trained a new police recruit who will replace him. He said:

“When you hear that my force has recruited 100 new officers, 80 or more will then be taken from that and placed within the custody area doing jobs already being done by Custody security officers.”

The First Minister trumpets his 1,000 extra police, but they are being used to fill civilian jobs. Is not that a con?

The First Minister

The only cons that are going down in Scotland is the number of criminals, as we have a 30-year low in recorded crime. The test of front-line policing is in the crime statistics. That is what should convince even Iain Gray that there are 1,190 more police officers on the streets and communities of Scotland than there were in March 2007.

Of course, Iain Gray’s track record in these matters is not very impressive. On 29 August 2008, as a novice leader, he forecast that it would take the Scottish National Party 13 years to keep its promise. Here we are, only three years later and 10 years ahead of Iain Gray’s timetable, with the achievement of 1,190 additional police officers in Scotland.

The crime statistics are not testament to the First Minister; they are testament to the work of police officers, like—[Interruption.]

Order.

Iain Gray

The figures are testament to the work of police officers such as Detective Inspector Paul Swinburne from East Kilbride. He has 30 years’ service, and this year he has seen 10 murders solved, 50 house break-ins solved, and eight drug dealers brought to justice. He has received five commendations, a Royal Humane Society award, and two police medals. Surely he is exactly the kind of dedicated police officer we want. No: he is being released. Why? So that he can be replaced by cheaper probationers, so that the SNP can get its 1,000 police officers. Does the First Minister think that the police should be protecting the public or protecting his election pledges?

The First Minister

Yes, of course the drop in the level of recorded crime, which gives us the lowest crime statistics for 30 years in Scotland, is due to the work of front-line police officers. Thankfully, there are 1,190 more of them than there would have been under the Labour Party—and the process goes on. In our negotiations with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, as we negotiated to maintain the number of front-line police officers, every other party in Scotland saw the priority in keeping that number in place except the Labour Party, which does not regard it as a priority. A political party that went into the last election promising zero extra police officers, that then forecast that it would take 13 years for the SNP Government to achieve the target of 1,000 extra police officers and was proved wrong, and that now, in local authorities, is doing its best to scupper the deal that will maintain police numbers can do many things, but it cannot come along to this chamber with a shred of credibility and start weeping crocodile tears for police officers in Scotland.

Iain Gray

It is the real experience of real experienced police officers and civilian support staff that I bring, but which the First Minister treats with contempt. When I was a justice minister, we worked to release hundreds of police officers from back-room work in order that they could do their jobs on the streets, and we worked to keep experienced police officers in place. Every time we hear the First Minister talk about 1,000 police officers, we should remember that it is a con. Support staff are being sacked so that they can be replaced by police officers who are taken off the beat, and experienced officers are being forced out. Grampian Police have called it “naive”; Unison has called it “a cosmetic political exercise”.

Last week, the First Minister admitted that he was not telling the whole story on tax powers. Yesterday, he had to admit that he was not telling the whole story on The Gathering 2009 Ltd’s loan. Today, will he admit that he is not telling the whole story on police numbers, either?

The First Minister

If I were Iain Gray, I would not remind the people of Scotland of the days when he was a justice minister. When he was a justice minister, the level of crime in Scotland was much higher than it is today.

Iain Gray claims, despite not backing a single extra police officer in Scotland and despite his extraordinary misforecast, that he is the voice of Scottish policing. Why do we not listen to the real voice of Scottish policing—the Scottish Police Federation? It stated:

“Today’s decision to maintain existing levels of front line Police numbers confirms our feeling that the politicians listened to our plea, shared our concerns and have responded accordingly. We now call upon local authorities to step up to the mark and match the Government’s commitment.”

That was on 17 November, two weeks ago.

There is no doubt where the voice of front-line police officers stands. The only doubt is that some local authorities—the Labour ones—may not share the commitment of COSLA and the Government to maintaining the record 1,000 extra police officers in Scotland so that we can continue to force down the level of recorded crime to levels that were unheard of when Iain Gray was a disastrous justice minister.


Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)



2. To ask the First Minister when he will next meet the Secretary of State for Scotland. (S3F-2748)

I have no plans to meet the secretary of state in the near future.

Annabel Goldie

We have seen the worst winter weather in November for 40 years. I pay tribute to all our public service workers in transport, in our hospitals and in our general practitioner surgeries. I pay special tribute to our care workers, who have battled through the snow to reach the most vulnerable people in our communities. Does the First Minister agree that a powerful message can be sent from the Parliament that there is a duty on all of us who are fit and able to keep an eye on our elderly and frail neighbours—to lift the phone and see whether we can help? The First Minister and I do not always agree but, on this occasion, will he join me in saying that this is a time for us all to muck in?

The First Minister

I congratulate Annabel Goldie on turning to the dominating issue of the week and on the way in which she made her comments.

I agree with her points. Perth and Kinross Council, despite the extraordinary conditions, has managed to reach all but two of its social care clients, who are being cared for by neighbours in exactly the spirit of volunteerism that Annabel Goldie mentioned. I know of one of this Parliament’s security guards who got up at 4 am, long before the crack of dawn, picked up four of his colleagues in his four-by-four and brought them in for the early shift.

I do not like to single out individual newspapers, but The Sun’s double-page spread today on sub-zero heroes includes example after example, from around Scotland, of people in public services and others contributing above and beyond the call of duty. Everyone in this chamber should read the article, as it gives excellent examples of what should be done, which we should all try to emulate. That is exactly the sort of spirit that is required to get Scotland through these difficult times.

Annabel Goldie

We read that four out of five people have made it to work this week; that is, indeed, incredible.

One group that is particularly challenged by this weather is parents. Tens of thousands of them, who are willing to battle their way to work, have found themselves coping with the result of the decision of numerous councils to impose a blanket closure of every school.

The safety of children and teachers is paramount and, of course, individual judgments must be made. However, surely the point is that we should trust our headteachers to make the right decisions for their schools and their pupils.

Does the First Minister agree that a blanket closure policy is obstructive and inappropriate, and causes huge and avoidable disruption to thousands of families across the country? We need local judgment. Why cannot we trust our headteachers?

The First Minister

I know that Annabel Goldie will have seen the advice from the Cabinet Secretary for Education and Lifelong Learning that has gone out today to every education authority, which stresses the importance of the headteacher as the key decision maker in this regard and the importance of the decisions being made as early as possible, in order to give parents notice.

The position of schools around Scotland is significantly better than it was yesterday. Thirteen of our 32 authorities have all their schools open. In schools in which the decision has been left to headteachers, there are some extraordinary stories of best practice. In Fetterangus primary school in my constituency, the headteacher, John Black, has heroically kept his school open despite mountains of snow—until today, I should say, when the elements finally overcame him. His efforts have been deeply appreciated by the parents and others in that village. That example stresses the point that headteachers should be the key decision makers, as they are best placed to assess the conditions. Obviously, no child should be sent to school in dangerous conditions, but the parents are in the best position to assess that, just as the headteacher is in the best position to assess the conditions around the school.

The education secretary is encouraging all local authorities to follow the best practice that is evident in some local authorities. Although I agree with the tenor of Annabel Goldie’s question, we should remember that people have had to make extremely difficult decisions in extremely difficult timescales, and we should reflect on that, as well as on the advice that the education secretary has sent to education authorities throughout Scotland.


Cabinet (Meetings)



3. To ask the First Minister what issues will be discussed at the next meeting of the Cabinet. (S3F-2749)

The next meeting of the Cabinet will discuss issues of importance to the people of Scotland.

Tavish Scott

The First Minister will know that, this morning, the United Kingdom Government announced that there is to be a review of how transport operators are coping with the weather, which will report before Christmas. The weather was forecast—operators who are responsible for roads, railways and runways knew that snow was coming and that it would last. What action is the Government taking to consider how ready Scotland is to keep people, goods and emergency services moving?

The First Minister

After last winter’s conditions, we reviewed all parts of our resilience, which is why, for example, we have two months’ supply of grit and salt in Scotland at the present moment, even under heavy usage conditions.

Like Government ministers and many others in Scotland, I am concentrating on getting through these conditions. We will be perfectly happy to have any number of reviews or parliamentary examinations but, right now, the priority is to get on with the job and to allow as many people in Scotland as possible to get on with their jobs.

Tavish Scott

Aberdeen and Dundee airports in the east of Scotland are open. They have had constant snow in recent days, but to the operators’ credit they are open. The Highlands and Islands airports, which are owned by the Government, are—to its credit—also open. Scots fly to Oslo, Stockholm and Amsterdam in winter, and those airports are geared up for snow.

Edinburgh airport, however, spends millions on drop-off charging lanes and ever more shops, but not enough on essential equipment. The First Minister’s Government is pushing Scotland as a winter fun destination. That is good for tourism, the economy and jobs, but not if visitors cannot get here.

What will the Government do to ensure that all Scotland’s airports have appropriate winter contingency plans? Would not the best thing for Scotland be a capital city airport that operates 365 days a year and which invests in essential equipment—and especially in hard-working staff—to make that happen?

The First Minister

As Tavish Scott well knows, despite the extraordinary efforts that have been made by the airports in the Highlands and Aberdeen, even they are not open 365 days a year, 24 hours a day. Sometimes the weather overtakes them.

In defence of the British Airports Authority, which also owns Glasgow airport, I know—because the Minister for Transport, Infrastructure and Climate Change has been in fairly constant touch with the airport operators—that Edinburgh airport has had five times the amount of snowfall that Glasgow airport has had. That has made for extremely difficult circumstances.

With regard to the general tenor of Tavish Scott’s question, if we take away his lack of allowance for the extraordinary conditions—I witnessed, as we all did, what seemed to be very extensive efforts yesterday to clear the runways at Edinburgh airport—I have some sympathy with one aspect of what he said. There are certain areas and airports in Scotland that, because they are more used to the sort of conditions that are now being visited on all of Scotland, perhaps by definition have better preparation in line.

That may be a lesson for Edinburgh airport, but I would argue that the overall position is that it has been subject to exceptional conditions. I see that substantial efforts are being made to clear the runway, and we all hope that Edinburgh airport will be open later today.

Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green)

I echo the comments that have been made about the commitment that many people are showing to keeping normal life going through the tough weather. However, I have heard—I wonder whether the First Minister has—of public sector employees who have been told that they could face disciplinary procedures if they are unable to get to work.

Does the First Minister agree that for any employer—public or private—to threaten to use disciplinary procedures against employees whose child care falls through or for whom transport is unavailable or unsafe, is a completely inappropriate response in the current situation?

The First Minister

If Patrick Harvie furnishes us with detailed examples, we will take whatever action is required. However, most of the information that is coming to us reflects exactly the opposite situation. It shows that public sector workers—in particular those in the health service—are making exceptional efforts to get into work. Indeed, many health service workers, particularly in Tayside, have been staying in the hospitals during the past few days.

One of the assistant directors of Stirling royal infirmary walked 6 miles in heavy snow today to a ward at Falkirk community hospital. An accident and emergency consultant at Stirling infirmary gave up her whole house to let nurses from the hospital stay there while she went to stay with a colleague.

Across our public services, people are making exceptional efforts. If Patrick Harvie has details of circumstances in which people are being treated unfairly, the Government will take appropriate action. However, that should not deflect from our recognition of the snow sub-zero heroes and the heroism that is going on around Scotland.


Sectarianism



4. To ask the First Minister whether the Scottish Government has further plans for tackling sectarianism. (S3F-2761)

The First Minister (Alex Salmond)

The Scottish Government is committed to tackling sectarianism—and all forms of religious intolerance—wherever and whenever it arises. Sectarianism is never acceptable.

In Scotland this year we have seen some examples of good progress. The country united in welcoming His Holiness the Pope to Scotland, and the all-faith commemoration of the 450th anniversary of the reformation took place.

Those two events, and the reception of an overwhelming vast majority of the people of Scotland to them, indicated that Scotland is perhaps beginning to win the battle against sectarianism, which people of good will are uniting to win.

Ian McKee

I thank the First Minister for his reply, which is particularly appropriate in Scottish inter faith week. Does he agree that the key to eradicating religious sectarianism is to influence the young? Does he agree that while it seems not to be possible to have Scotland’s children share a common educational experience, all efforts should be made to encourage faith and non-denominational schools to engage in a wide range of joint activities? That will allow children of all faiths and none to work and play together, thus forming friendships across the religious divide that are based on familiarity and mutual respect.

The First Minister

Yes, I do agree with that, and that is happening across many of our schools, as indeed are anti-sectarian programmes on the ground. This week, for example, Fergus Ewing attended the launch of Nil by Mouth’s project to address sectarianism in the workplace in Scotland, and a range of other initiatives are being supported by the Government, not just in education but across a range of areas of society. Those efforts are laudable. I agree with Ian McKee in the support that he expresses for them, and they will most certainly continue despite the financial pressures that are facing the Administration.

Does the First Minister agree that it does little to douse the flames of sectarianism in football when chairmen of prominent Scottish clubs go on television to demand the sacking of individual referees?

The First Minister

I will shimmy or sidestep around the request to interfere in the internal affairs of the Scottish Football Association, except to say this: the Scottish Football Association, like every responsible organisation in Scotland, has rules and regulations covering such matters. Incidentally, I believe that, following due process, it has come to the right decision.


Physical Education



5. To ask the First Minister when the Scottish Government will meet the Scottish National Party’s manifesto pledge to ensure two hours of PE in schools. (S3F-2757)

The First Minister (Alex Salmond)

I know that Bill Butler would be the first to acknowledge that the number of schools delivering two hours of physical education in primary has gone up from 5 per cent under Labour to 55 per cent now. What is more, Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Education reports that about 60 per cent of secondaries are delivering two periods of physical education, generally of 50 or 55 minutes each. That is a significant improvement, but we want to do even better. That is why we have embedded the physical education pledge within the new curriculum and made delivery of the curriculum part of the budget deal that we have struck—apart from with Labour—with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities.

Bill Butler

The First Minister might recall that the SNP’s 2007 manifesto stated:

“we will ensure that every pupil has 2 hours of quality PE each week delivered by specialist PE teachers.”

In reality, all that the SNP has ensured over the past three and a half years is that fewer children have two hours of PE than when it took office. In 2006-07, it was 43 per cent, which declined to 37 per cent in 2009-10. That decline applies across the school system with an especially deplorable fall in special school provision from 14 per cent to 10 per cent last year.

Given that, in his own back yard, Aberdeenshire Council stands 25th out of the 32 local authorities at primary level and is bottom of the league in respect of secondary provision, will the First Minister do the decent thing and apologise to parents and children throughout Scotland for yet another broken SNP promise?

The First Minister

First, I remind Bill Butler of the real figures and just a little bit of history. I was not in this Parliament, although Bill Butler was, when Labour’s Peter Peacock, the then Minister for Education and Young People, made the pledge in 2004. The Labour Party then surveyed schools in 2005, which resulted in the finding that 5 per cent of primaries were allocating two hours to PE. Even by Bill Butler’s arithmetic, he will surely come to the conclusion that 55 per cent now is 50 per cent greater than 5 per cent under the Labour Party. [Interruption.]

Order.

The First Minister

I forgot to mention another important point. In response to the 5 per cent finding, the Labour Party’s dramatic action was to cease having any surveys.

I will mention just one more little bit of counting. In Labour’s last year—2006—there were 1,963 physical education teachers in Scotland. Under the Scottish National Party, there are now 2,017, which is more than 1,963.

Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP)

Notwithstanding and certainly not understating the serious consequences arising from the prevailing wintry conditions referred to earlier, does the First Minister share my delight at seeing Scotland’s schoolchildren enjoying fresh air and vigorous exercise in the snow? Does he agree that winter sports should be on the school curriculum and that that would undermine the resistance of some children to compulsory exercise?

The First Minister

May I always agree with Christine Grahame whenever I am able to, which is surprisingly often. Like me, she agrees that one of the key things happening now is that the active schools programme is continuing in Scotland, which is an extraordinary contrast with the attempt to abolish the schools sports partnership in England. Yet again, we see in that contrast real commitment to deal with these difficult times and to prioritise physical education in Scotland, whereas south of the border, the Con-Dem coalition seems to be in considerable difficulty on that and many other issues.

Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD)

Does the First Minister agree that, as well as getting enough PE in schools, it is important that children are able to get it in their local communities? Does he further agree that it is important that decision makers such as Edinburgh Leisure, which is currently considering the future of Kirkliston leisure centre in my constituency, have regard to the medium and long-term health benefits of sport and resist the temptation to accept closures as a short-term fix? Will the First Minister support the work being undertaken across the community to try to secure that important sports facility for an ever-expanding village?

The First Minister

I agree with some of the tenor of that question, but I know that the member would be the first to recognise that public services in Scotland—this Government, local authorities and every public service—are under extraordinary budget pressure at present. As I recall, the source of that budget pressure comes from the Conservative-Liberal Democrat coalition in London, which is handing down severe public sector cuts to Scotland that are a third greater even than the extraordinary cuts suggested by Alistair Darling when he was in office. Although I agree with the tenor of the member’s question, let us recognise that every public authority is under severe budgetary pressure at present.


Police



6. To ask the First Minister whether the Scottish Government supports the creation of a single police force for Scotland. (S3F-2756)

The First Minister (Alex Salmond)

The Scottish Government is considering reform options to ensure that we can protect front-line policing in the face of unprecedented financial challenges. We will continue to prioritise keeping police officers on the beat. The interim findings of that work will be considered at the Scottish policing board meeting on 6 December.

Robert Brown

I am sure that the First Minister is aware that the report to that working group talks about the abolition of the current eight forces to

“provide the greatest platform to enable investment in front-line policing”.

Is he aware that that view is vehemently opposed by a number of the interests in the field? For example, does he share the view of the Association of Chief Police Officers in Scotland that the findings for a single police force are

“based on flimsy evidence and focus too much on saving money rather than delivering better policing”?

Or does he share the view of the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, that there is no

“robust evidence in favour of a single police force.”?

Will he now state clearly that the Government’s policy is not to have a single police force in Scotland?

The First Minister

I do not know whether I am correct, but the interim report should amplify Robert Brown’s remarks. It identifies four options: a single police force; a regional model of three or four forces; the existing eight forces with more collaboration; or a combined police, fire and ambulance service. That work delivers the analysis and evidence that will be the foundation of future decisions on police reform.

Robert Brown is entitled to set his face firmly against one aspect of potential change, but he should remember and reflect on why that thorough examination of the efficiency and delivery of public services is necessary. It is necessary in the face of extraordinary public spending pressure. Given that that pressure emanates from the Liberal Democrats, not in the comfort of Opposition but from the responsibility of Government, a little modesty and constructive engagement with those changes will be required from that party.

Richard Baker (North East Scotland) (Lab)

Does the First Minister agree that a single national police force for Scotland, structured correctly, could improve on the current arrangements for local accountability for policing decisions and better deliver sustainable community policing—police on the beat—at a local level? [Interruption.]

The First Minister

The Liberal Democrats encourage me to agree with Richard Baker, but I can do no such thing at question time. As we deliver necessary structural change, it is crucial that we take society and all social partners with us. The engagement process that the meeting in the next few days represents—and which the Christie commission will allow us to undertake—is a far better way of making a considered move to reform than perhaps Richard Baker would allow.

I am tempted—but of course, I would not do it—to remind Richard Baker that, on 27 April 2010, he made a press statement about increases in racist crime in three of our seven police force areas. Of course, Scotland has eight police force areas. It might be useful to know how many forces Scotland has before he considers abolishing them all.

12:30 Meeting suspended until 14:15.

14:15 On resuming—