Official Report 173KB pdf
The next item of business is a statement by Màiri McAllan on phone-free classrooms. The cabinet secretary will take questions at the end of her statement and there should be no interventions or interruptions.
15:02
My priority is to ensure that our school environments support pupils to thrive and to reach their full potential. There is no doubt that new and evolving technologies can provide opportunities for learning and communication. However, they also bring the risk of a spectrum of harm. We need to recognise the negative impact of mobile phones and screen time and, frankly, to protect our children and young people from that.
That is why now is the time for phone-free learning environments. I am pleased that there is cross-party consensus on the issue and that we can work together on it. We owe it to our pupils and teachers to do so, and to create an environment that is conducive to learning and teaching. This Government has already been clear that any school or education authority that wishes to introduce restrictions on mobile phones in its classrooms or across the school estate will have ministers’ full support. That is the position set out in our national guidance, which we introduced in 2024 in response to the 2023 report on behaviour in Scottish schools that highlighted the disruption caused by mobile phones in our classrooms.
Since we introduced that guidance, many schools and education authorities have acted to restrict the use of mobile phones, and I welcome that. However, there is too much variability. We have listened carefully to calls from parents, carers and teachers to ensure greater consistency across the country so as to support children’s learning and development.
We continue to hear concerns about classroom disruption where restrictions are absent and about the wider impacts on pupils’ wellbeing of excessive screen time, exposure to harmful online content and the effects of online bullying. That is why we will shortly publish a consultation on legislation to make our learning environments phone free, thereby meeting our commitment to do so within the first 100 days of this Government’s being in office.
Last week, in one of my first school visits as Cabinet Secretary for Education, Culture and Gaelic, I went to James Gillespie’s high school, where I met staff and young people to discuss the school’s mobile phone policy. It is clear about allowing no phones during school hours on school grounds, which include the campus, the classrooms, the corridors and the cafeteria. The rules for the school’s young people are clear: see it, hear it, lose it.
When I spoke to the staff and the young people, which I did separately, they highlighted the benefits of that policy, including fewer distractions during class, reduced conflict among pupils and between staff and pupils, and more interaction among peers. The young people reflected on how much they welcomed the break from otherwise addictive apps and content.
I want to hear from more pupils through our consultation. Scotland has been a pioneer in the advancement of rights for children and young people, and it is vital that their views be front and centre in the decisions that we take. We also want to understand the range of views from parents and carers, school staff, education authorities and interested organisations, which will help to shape our legislation and allow us to deal with multiple complex issues.
For example, as our current guidance makes clear, there will be occasions when exemptions are required, such as where young people use their phones to monitor medical conditions or where young carers need to maintain contact with home. Schools that have already implemented phone-free policies per our guidance are managing exemptions well. We will fully explore and understand all those issues to inform sensible legislation.
Legislation is the only way in which we can mandate learning environments to be phone free. Until then, existing guidance allows all schools to introduce such a policy now. Therefore, to signal our intent that schools should move to introduce restrictions while we prepare legislation, we are working with education authorities to refresh our current guidance to support and encourage more schools to introduce restrictions ahead of a change in the law.
We are working with the Scottish advisory group on relationships and behaviour in schools so that the updated guidance will be informed by the views of organisations including the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, the Association of Directors of Education in Scotland, the main teaching unions and representatives of parents and carers. As will be crucial, it will also be informed by the views of young people.
The guidance will set out expectations for key areas, including the engagement with the whole school community—pupils, staff and families—that will be required if we are to build support for such policies. I am pleased to inform members that the updated guidance will be published by the end of this month to support schools in considering their approach from the beginning of the next term.
This issue rests within the wider public health approach to online harm that the Government is committed to taking. We recognise the spectrum of harm that is associated with the significant intensification that we have seen in children’s and young people’s use of online platforms and smartphones. That spectrum includes—but is not limited to—loss of concentration and the waste of precious childhood years, at one end, and it goes right through to the absorption of harmful and often violent, misogynistic or radicalising content, incitement to self-harm, extreme bullying and, in some cases, grooming.
Taking a public health approach means being clear about such harms and taking a holistic approach to addressing them. Therefore, when considering the impact of mobile phones in schools, we must think not only about distraction in the classroom or bullying during the school day but about the higher risk of depression, anxiety, poor sleep and poor health in adolescence that can arise from smartphone use in general. Taking such an approach means engaging the whole school community so that schools can create the conditions to get things right for school wellbeing, learning outcomes and long-term health.
Schools are only one part of the solution, and I will highlight action that we are taking to support parents and young people to ensure that social media companies are held to account. Although the main policy and legislative levers, such as measures that can be taken under the Online Safety Act 2023, are held by the United Kingdom Government, in Scotland we are taking all available steps to act here and now while we wait for the UK Government to step up.
Let me be clear: we support the UK Government’s consultation on the banning of social media for under-16s. However, we do not think that that will solve the problem of online harms. We need more concerted action to force social media and tech giants to do more to protect our children. That is a fight that I will not shy away from.
We have also already taken action to provide guidance for parents of younger children and babies by publishing advice on screen time on our Parent Club website for parents of children aged under 5. That advice is in line with the World Health Organization’s guidance. We also continue to fund resources such as the Mind Yer Time website, which gives children and young people advice on social media use, screen time and sleep, and on the impact of all those factors on their body image and mental wellbeing.
We will now build on that work by funding a national public health campaign to make young people and their families aware of how to use social media, screen time and online time in a safe and healthy manner, which might mean not using it at all. We need families to be aware of the harmful consequences and the risks to mental health, sleep and body image of online time, as well as the benefits of spending time with friends and family in real life. Parents must be supported in that effort and never shamed.
We will also use the example of Ireland’s successful pause before you post campaign to make parents and carers aware of the potential harms of what is called sharenting—sharing images and details of their children on social media that can be pieced together and so inadvertently create a digital footprint for young people.
We can take that action—and are taking it now—but Scotland does not have the powers to act in areas such as the regulation of internet services. We will take steps to push the UK Government to take more action, including ensuring that Ofcom uses its powers to hold technology companies and social media providers to account. Regulation has fallen substantially behind where it needs to be. We will advocate for a social media levy on companies, to be invested in programmes to support safer online engagement for young people, thereby improving mental health and supporting online literacy.
I was very interested in the comments of the former UK safeguarding minister, who, in her resignation letter to the Prime Minister, said that she knew of solutions that could end the ability of children in the UK to take naked pictures of themselves
“on every phone and device in the country.”
If that technology exists, it must be rolled out without delay. The Minister for Children, Young People and The Promise, Siobhian Brown, has written to the new safeguarding minister to ask about that technology, to confirm our support for such a move and to reiterate our desire to work closely with the UK Government on the important issue of safeguarding.
Our children and young people are growing up in an online world that was unimaginable 20 years ago when I was at school. I recall the first smartphones emerging then. The rapid evolution of technology means that our thinking must also adapt. The Government is clear that a public health approach is appropriate to respond to those changes. Creating phone-free learning environments is an important part of that holistic approach. Our schools should be safe and nurturing environments for our children and young people, where they can learn free from the distractions of mobile phones. Teachers will benefit from that, too.
I look forward to working constructively with members on that issue and the wider issue of freeing our children from intensifying online harm.
The cabinet secretary will now take questions on the issues that were raised in her statement. I intend to allow about 20 minutes for questions, after which we will move to the next item of business. It would be helpful if members who wish to ask a question were to press their request-to-speak buttons now.
Thank you for your speech, cabinet secretary. We support the ban of mobile phones in schools to help to ensure focus in classrooms and to support teachers in delivering lessons. I appreciate the level of consultation that there has been—I am impressed to see how much work has gone into that, and I think that it is the right approach and the right way forward.
I want to look at how we ensure on an ongoing basis that the policy is delivered effectively. We are having a ban and we are stopping something from occurring, but we need to support the delivery in a way that will allow staff to have autonomy and control in their classrooms and to ensure that the appropriate discipline and consequences are in place. How do we get the balance right between providing support and resources and allowing a level of autonomy in classrooms and schools?
I thank Angela Ross for her question and her support for the policy. I hope that we can continue to garner that support right across the chamber. I also acknowledge her comments about the preparedness and the preparations that have gone into the policy. I give credit to my predecessor in the education portfolio—the Deputy First Minister, Jenny Gilruth—for the very considered manner in which the policy has been adopted and for getting us to this stage.
Angela Ross is right to ask about flexibility. One problem with the current situation, and one reason why we need to change the law, is that some schools have adopted the approach and others have not, and that variability across the country will be letting down some pupils. We cannot have that and we have to correct it, but flexibility will continue to be an important aspect. The guidance as it stands allows for school-appropriate flexibility, including on whether the ban applies in the classroom or to the whole campus, and what exemptions might be made available.
Another thing that is critical to making the policy work practically, which is what Angela Ross’s question was about, is the whole-school-community approach to its development. That has to involve the heads of schools and teachers working with parents and carers, and, crucially, with young people. When I visited James Gillespie’s high school, I found that it has put a great deal of emphasis on the whole school community’s buy-in to the policy, and that was bearing fruit in its implementation.
I thank the cabinet secretary for the advance notice of her statement.
We welcome the Scottish Government’s commitment to making progress on mobile phone-free classrooms. Scottish Labour campaigned on the issue for some time and it was found to be hugely popular with parents. Can the cabinet secretary give the Parliament some detail about when the consultation will open, when it will end and when the legislation will be brought forward?
It was positive to hear about the cabinet secretary’s visit to James Gillespie’s high school and her keenness for schools to roll out the measure now, but what support and guidance will be given to headteachers who wish to remove phones from classrooms when they perhaps face obstacles? How do we ensure that we are sharing best practice?
I would reflect a similar experience to that of Katherine Sangster. She mentioned having spoken with a number of parents who are keen to see this carefully developed policy move to the next stage and to a nationwide position. I, too, have had that experience. Most teachers who I spoke to in a constituency capacity, prior to coming into my current role, reflected that desire for a central position, and that is what the Government is now moving to deliver.
Katherine Sangster is right to ask about timelines. In the first 100 days of this Government, we have committed to opening the consultation on the legislation and publishing the updated guidance, which we are encouraging schools to adopt now, in advance of the change of the law.
I welcome the cabinet secretary’s statement. As a former English teacher of 25 years’ experience, I have front-line experience of how destructive and distracting mobile phones in classrooms can be to the teaching and learning process, and of the range of harms that they cause, to which the cabinet secretary has alluded. Many teachers have longed for a statutory ban to be put in place and will also welcome the measures.
What powers and support does the cabinet secretary envisage that schools will be able to access in enforcing a ban on phones in classrooms, especially in view of the fact that there could well be some parental pushback, beyond any exemptions that are in place, as has been reported recently in some parts of the country where schools have tried to enforce such bans?
It is not at all daunting to have one former teacher sitting next to me and one over my shoulder, but that helps to stress how much I hope that we can deliver the change in the law in a way that takes on board the views of the teaching profession, parliamentarians across the chamber, parents and carers and, of course, our teaching unions and local authorities. I recognise that each school will have to seek to overcome different aspects of the issue, whether there is a classroom ban or a campus ban, and I have alluded to some of them already.
Personally, I saw a campus ban working really well at James Gillespie’s high school. The teachers and young people reflected to me that that not only helps to remove distractions in the classroom but frees the young people from what we know can be the malign influence of the online world throughout their day. Some of the young people reflected to me that, because their phone had been off in their bag, increasingly, when they were going home, they were not turning it back on as quickly as they might have done before. That is breaking the addictiveness that we know tech companies build into many of their platforms.
In response to Patricia Gibson, I would say that flexibility will be built in and we will consult carefully on what everybody involved thinks needs to be reflected in the eventual law change. However, I am keen to ensure that what we finally pass in the chamber reflects the gravity of the potential harm that could impact our young people and operates as a bit of a line in the sand for how we see the correct use of smartphones in the online world for our young people.
Deputy Presiding Officer, congratulations on your election, and congratulations to the cabinet secretary on hers.
Does the cabinet secretary agree that given that many teachers are already implementing their own de facto bans on smartphone use in the classroom, many more would appreciate the formalisation of such a ban, thus removing the onus from them?
In my response to Katherine Sangster, I reflected that, anecdotally and in a constituency capacity, parents and teachers have said to me that a national position would be helpful. In developing this policy, we have been clear that we do not have the powers to unilaterally implement a ban across the country, which is why a law change is now required, and that is what we are working towards.
I return to the variability point. That is probably the main thing that we as a Parliament and as a society could not tolerate—the idea that some pupils in our schools learn free from the influence of smartphones, while others do not. There is a lot of consensus in that area. Provided that we can get the framework right, I think that we will, as a Parliament, enjoy quite a lot of public support for the policy.
Deputy Presiding Officer, I also welcome you to your role.
As doctors have recently warned that social media can be just as harmful to children as smoking, I welcome the Scottish Government’s action to introduce phone-free classrooms and mitigate the impact of phone use on learning. Can the cabinet secretary set out what more can be done in the classroom directly to tackle social media’s harms? For example, does she believe that encouraging more outdoor learning can be a helpful tool to mitigate those harms?
I hope that, when the changes come into force, we will find that disruption in the classroom is lessened, that concentration in the classroom is heightened and that teachers find themselves more able to conduct their professional duties without distractions from phones. As I said in response to another question, I also hope that the policy is part of a wider public health approach that challenges the real intensification of children and young people’s use of the online world in recent years.
Fulton MacGregor’s point on outdoor learning was absolutely right. There is nothing like getting outside, exercising or just spending a bit of time in nature to remind us all that the online world is not the real world. There is a real world out there, and it is to be enjoyed.
I thank the cabinet secretary for advance sight of her statement today. I am very glad that the Scottish National Party has shifted its position on the issue. As a former French teacher, I know the huge level of disruption and distraction that phones can bring into our classrooms, but I also know that my former colleagues are under immense pressure due to rising violence in schools and an ever-increasing workload. What assurances can the cabinet secretary give that our overworked teachers will be able properly to contribute to the consultation without ever more duties being piled on them?
I thank Jenny Young for her insights, and I will add her as another teacher whose input I look forward to getting in this role. I assure her that teachers’ views are central to how we develop the policy. I have listed the range of stakeholders with whom we have been working on the development of the guidance, and with whom we will continue to work as we develop the legislation.
Violence in our classrooms is something that I and the Government are concerned about. On Thursday, I am attending the Educational Institute of Scotland annual general meeting in Dundee, and I expect to discuss the issue with teachers then. I have no doubt that bold policy changes such as this can have a big impact on behaviour in the classroom—again, not only because of the disruptive tendency of phones but because of what we know that our young people absorb, on a really repetitive and addictive basis, when they are online.
If I have time, I will reflect that people have talked to me about starting social media accounts with a completely blank canvas and very quickly finding that the algorithm is sending them countless images of young boys engaging in violence and highly sexualised content of girls. That is what we are dealing with here, and we need to arrest that.
Introducing phone-free classrooms will provide greater consistency across Scotland, but will the cabinet secretary say more on what exemptions might be made to the national ban, particularly for pupils with additional support needs, disabilities, medical conditions or caring responsibilities who need access to technology?
I am pleased to note that the guidance that my colleague the former education secretary developed had exemptions at its heart. The guidance provided a strong statement of intent, but it explicitly included exemptions to take into account instances in which phones will be needed. There are medical exemptions and exemptions for young carers, and there is also an exemption for staff-led learning activity on digital devices. I will discuss the extent to which such exemptions will need to be reflected in the legislation.
The policy that James Gillespie’s high school produced was clear and concise, and it explicitly stated that exemptions would be considered on a case-by-case basis.
I call Kayleigh Kinross-O’Neill, who will be followed by Marie McNair, who will ask the final question.
The cabinet secretary has outlined that existing guidance gives schools the power to ban the use of mobile phones, with the Government’s support. Although we look forward to reading the proposed bill, we believe that the emphasis should first be on placing trust in teachers and providing them with resources so that they can do what is best for their own classrooms, as well as on ensuring that guidance is implemented as uniformly as possible. How will children and young people from across the country—especially those with additional support needs, who have already been mentioned—be effectively and meaningfully consulted beforehand?
Trust is vital, and we absolutely trust our school leaders and teachers to lead the policy. That is why the Deputy First Minister’s guidance put them front and centre and put our support behind them. Support is also vital. As I have reflected, we have heard calls for increased national support, which will now be provided.
Ms Kinross-O’Neill is absolutely right to remind us of the importance of the views of children and young people. That is central to the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child and our belief in getting it right for every child. Children and young people have already been engaged through the development of the guidance, and I assure her that that approach will be front and centre as we take forward the legislation.
However, it is also worth saying that, as adults in society, we have an obligation to act when we believe that something is harming our children.
We actually have a bit more time for questions. Marie McNair will be followed by Meghan Gallacher.
I welcome you to your role, Deputy Presiding Officer, and I congratulate the cabinet secretary on her new appointment.
The vast majority of Scotland’s pupils are hardworking and well behaved, but we must acknowledge concerns about the antisocial behaviour that occurs in our schools. How will introducing phone-free classrooms contribute to efforts to promote positive relationships and behaviour, supported by the relationships and behaviour in schools national action plan?
I associate myself with Marie McNair’s question. Recently, I spoke to a guidance teacher who said that, almost exclusively, she begins her mornings by dealing with the emotional upset or turmoil of one young person, or a number of young people, as a result of something that has emanated from the online world. It might be communication between pupils or something that someone has seen and cannot get out of their head.
We all need to reflect on the fact that this situation has intensified very quickly. Technology is ever-evolving, and we will have to be nimble as we seek to grapple with it. Our responses to such issues should be clear and always proportionate. We should empower young people, parents and carers, and we should support our teachers and headteachers to implement what is right for their schools.
We are all aware of the negative impact that mobile phones can have on young people, from bullying to disruption and violence in our classrooms. The Scottish Conservatives have been calling for a ban on mobile phones in classrooms for quite some time. Does the cabinet secretary accept that teachers, parents and pupils have waited long enough for action? Does she understand that some might feel frustrated that, instead of action now, we have yet another consultation, which could mean that the can is kicked down the road?
I would reflect to Meghan Gallacher that the law in Scotland is as it stands, and the Government’s position has long been that we cannot unilaterally implement the policy nationwide without a change in the law. As has been reflected, the development and co-development of guidance that has gotten us to this point has been helpful preparation for the next step that we will take together.
Meghan Gallacher is absolutely right to highlight the difficulties and the potential harms of the online world, as I have done. We also need to remember that navigating the online world can provide communities for certain young people and can be an outlet for their needs in life, but they will not be able to navigate it well and get those benefits unless we help to protect them from the harms, which is exactly what we will do.
Legislation to control the use of mobile phones in schools is certainly a welcome step, but I ask the cabinet secretary to look further at the use of digital devices in schools. A growing body of parents are concerned about their unregulated use, which is not based on the best practice and best evidence. I urge her to consider that and potentially to include that in any proposed legislation.
I would certainly be interested to engage with Willie Rennie on the growing body of concern that he has spoken of regarding the use of digital devices being unregulated. There is a distinction to be made between personal mobile devices and digital devices that are provided by a school, which will often have firewalls and other technologies, meaning that pupils stay squarely focused on the learning outcome of the use of the device.
As part of the consultation on the proposed legislation, I will seek to understand more about those concerns over a lack of regulation. Given that the aim is to help with the learning environment, I am keen to ensure that we are not removing tools that help teachers to further our young people’s education.
Previous Scottish Government guidance on mobile phones in schools was developed by listening to the voices not just of headteachers and school staff but of our young people. It is crucial that we continue to engage with those affected. Will the cabinet secretary outline any plans to consult our young folk on the changes that she is proposing?
Jackie Dunbar is absolutely right. The principle of meaningful participation is central to the adoption of a children’s rights-based approach and is a general guiding principle of the UNCRC. We are developing our approach to engagement with children’s organisations to ensure that children’s voices are heard as part of the consultation process.
We have rightly focused on children and young people, our pupils and our school environment today, but it bears saying that, as adults, we could probably all benefit from thinking about our social media use, too, and about the distinction between the online world and the real world. I often reflect that I might like it if someone took my phone off me for six hours a day.
We will stick to the remit of the task at hand with our education and learning environments, and perhaps adults can learn a thing or two from young people.
Thank you, cabinet secretary. My apologies to the members I could not call in the time that we had allotted.
The rest of this Official Report will be published progressively as soon as the text is available.
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