Plenary,

Meeting date: Thursday, May 2, 2002

Official Report 646KB pdf

---

First Minister's Question Time

Before we begin First Minister's question time, I invite the chamber to give a warm welcome to Señor Mas, the Prime Minister of Catalonia, and his delegation in the gallery. [Applause.]

---

Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)

To ask the First Minister when he will next meet the Secretary of State for Scotland and what issues he plans to raise. (S1F-1856)

I first join the Presiding Officer in welcoming our guests from Catalonia. I also inform the chamber that we have today signed the very first partnership agreement between the devolved Government of Scotland and a devolved Government elsewhere in Europe. I am delighted to say that we signed that agreement earlier this afternoon with Catalonia, which has become such a good friend of Scotland over recent years. [Applause.]

I last met the Secretary of State on Monday 29 April and we will meet again on 17 June.

I support the agreement with the Catalan Government that the First Minister has announced.

The First Minister will be aware that, on Sunday, I called for cross-party unity to combat racism in Scotland. Earlier this week, I wrote to the First Minister and to the other party leaders on the same subject, to suggest some ways in which we might take forward that cross-party unity to combat racism. I appreciate that the First Minister may not have had much time to consider the correspondence. Will he acknowledge whether he is, in principle, prepared to co-operate with the other party leaders to combat racism in Scotland?

I am delighted to hear that the letter has been sent. This morning, I checked with the people in my office, but to their knowledge the letter has not yet been received. We look forward to receiving it.

All my adult life I have been involved in cross-party campaigns against racism. Everybody on the Executive benches would be delighted to join anyone on either the SNP or the Conservative benches to campaign against racism in Scotland.

Will the First Minister develop some of what he said a bit further? In the preparations for next year's Scottish Parliament and local authority elections, are there any specific measures that we as politicians can take to ensure that we keep racism out of the political debate in Scotland?

We all have an individual responsibility for that. It is critical that, as we work towards next year's elections, we focus on the issues that matter to the people of Scotland. The best way to defeat racism in Scotland is to ensure that we focus on the issues that matter in communities across Scotland. That means that we must tackle poverty, unemployment, health problems, educational problems and problems of opportunity. We need to reduce the fear of a lack of opportunity, which can sometimes lead to the hatred of others. By focusing on those issues—I sometimes wish that all parties in the chamber would do so—we will not only make a difference but end the scourge of racism in Scotland.

I appreciate the sentiments of the First Minister's reply. As we approach next year's elections to the Scottish Parliament, is the First Minister prepared to go one stage further by making a specific commitment that his party, like my party, will not share a platform with anyone who espouses fascist or racist views in Scotland?

I have no intention of sharing a platform with anybody who espouses racist views. As we move towards the election next year, it is vital that we focus on the issues. In the course of the past 10 days, I have been involved in the announcement of one of the biggest new jobs projects in the west of Scotland for a long time. I have also opened a new hospital and a new school in the Western Isles and new airport terminals in the Western Isles and in the northern isles. In Stockholm and in Brussels, I have been able to represent Scotland's devolved Parliament and Government in an effective way. I have also visited the Ardler housing estate in Dundee.

I know that his party is opposed to housing stock transfer and the regeneration of housing estates in Scotland, but when I see the—[Interruption.] There has been enough bullying for one day, thank you very much. When I see the regeneration that is taking place in Dundee and elsewhere, the new hope in those communities, and the way in which people are coming together to represent themselves and those they live beside, I know that that is the best way for us to proceed—not just to combat racism, but to take on the fear, the lack of opportunity and the lack of hope that have bedevilled Scotland for too long. If we do that, we can build a much better Scotland.

---

Cabinet (Meetings)

To ask the First Minister what issues will be discussed at the next meeting of the Scottish Executive's Cabinet. (S1F-1865)

The Cabinet will discuss our main objective for Scotland, which is, as David McLetchie will be aware, closing the opportunity gap.

I hope that youth crime will be high on the agenda, now that the First Minister's own back benchers have awakened him to the serious problems that vandalism, theft and disorder are causing in communities throughout Scotland. Scottish Conservative attempts to make the Executive take the problem seriously frankly have been ignored in the Parliament. The Executive's pathetic response to the problem in its Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill is to extend the children's panel system to include 16 and 17-year-olds, at a time when the system cannot even cope properly with younger offenders. If the First Minister will not listen to me, will he listen to his own back benchers, and ditch that discredited policy from his Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill?

First, I put on record the fact that it is not the intention of anyone on the Labour or Liberal Democrat benches to take any serious offenders or repeat offenders out of the courts system and place them in the hearings system. That allegation is untrue and needs to be denied.

There are measures in the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill to secure new opportunities to force young people to face up to the crimes that they have committed. There are also new measures to secure proper services and support for victims—measures that have been outstanding in Scotland for far too long.

In recent months, we have seen not only an action plan to tackle discipline problems in schools, but other measures to secure the right environment for young people, so that they are diverted from paths of indiscipline and disorder on our streets, and so that they face up to their actions when they go off the rails. A concerted programme of action against youth crime and a policy of zero tolerance of disorder and violence on our streets are the only ways in which we will clear up the problem in Scotland for good.

I do not doubt for a moment that there is a need for concerted action, but I am disappointed that the First Minister is not prepared to reconsider the policy. I will illustrate why the public and the police are so angry and frustrated.

Last Saturday night, along with other MSPs and councillors from Edinburgh, I was out with Lothian and Borders police for an on-the-streets briefing. We were all horrified to be told of the case of a 15-year-old boy, who, since January 1999, has accumulated 297 offences against his name, who, frankly, has cocked a snook at the whole justice system and who was found a place in secure accommodation only in the past week. According to research carried out by the Prince's Trust, that one-boy crime wave will have cost our justice system more than £600,000 in the past three years alone, quite apart from the cost to his victims and the community in which he lives.

Does the First Minister recognise that there is an urgent need for more secure accommodation, to deal with this scandalous situation and to take persistent offenders off the streets and out of the hair of people in the communities in which such offenders live?

Those are easy and simplistic slogans, but they do not do the issue justice. Scotland already has a significantly higher level of secure accommodation for young people than there is in England. In Scotland, measures are already in place to ensure that young people are forced to face up to their actions.

It is only by ensuring first that we have the right number of police officers, not just in our police forces but in our communities, and secondly, that we have the programmes in place that not only keep young people off the streets, but get them back on the rails as quickly as possible when they go off them, that we are able to tackle youth offending, and in particular repeat youth offending, as quickly and effectively as possible. We have secure accommodation, but we also have the other placements that are needed to tackle the problem. It is also important that we ensure that as many young people as possible stay in school, get a proper academic career and leave school with hope and opportunity.

Yes, the issue is about being tough and hard on those who offend. I have heard of cases—including one I heard about during my visit to Lothian and Borders Police at Torphichen police station—of repeat youth offenders who are not picked up by other agencies when the police refer them. Those cases have to be tackled more quickly. There is nothing more dispiriting than for somebody in Scotland to report a crime and have the young person lifted, for the person then to be put back on the street that afternoon. We need to tackle such instances, but we have to have the infrastructure in place to ensure that the system works. That is exactly what we are working towards.

---

Vaccination

To ask the First Minister what reassurance parents have received about the safety of vaccinations. (S1F-1875)

A guide for parents issued by the Health Education Board for Scotland makes it clear that immunisation is the safest and most effective way of protecting children against serious diseases. I would urge any parent with questions about the measles, mumps and rubella vaccine to read the report of the MMR expert group, which was published this week, and arrange an early discussion with their GP or health visitor.

I thank the First Minister for his comments and for the welcome given to the report of the expert group on MMR, which was published earlier this week. Does the First Minister agree that the only way to resolve all the questions about the safety of the MMR vaccine to the satisfaction of everybody concerned is to conduct further research into the causes of autism? Does he further agree that, in the meantime, the priority for the Parliament must be to put in place the services and support that adults and children with autism, their carers and their families need?

Yes. It would be plain daft for anybody in the chamber to disagree with the need for more research and not to support the call for improved services. That is the rational way ahead. Ministers will continue to work towards that objective and I am sure that we will have the support of members in the chamber who care about the issue.

Does the First Minister agree that, although much in the expert group report is to be welcomed, and much work is to be done based on its recommendations, it would be honest to say that it has gone a little way towards alleviating the fears that many parents have about the use of the MMR vaccine? Does he also agree that the only way to produce real confidence among the population of Scotland and other members of this disunited kingdom is to get an honest answer from the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom about whether his son Leo was given the single vaccine in France last summer or whether he has been given the triple vaccine?

That is certainly a reserved matter. I do not know whether the First Minister wants to answer.

That is the new, non-moaning SNP. That is the kind of question and statement that demeans Scottish politics. There are genuine concerns about vaccinations among parents. We in the chamber need to take seriously those concerns. That is why the work of expert groups is important. That is why it is important to listen to the advice of those most closely involved in the health service. That is why it is important not to distort the debate and not to induce further fears and worries among parents.

I hope that we can now unite behind the work of the expert group and the action being taken by ministers and the Health and Community Care Committee of the Parliament—an important institution—to ensure that, in the months and years to come, we get the vaccination rates for children back up to a safer level.

Does the First Minister agree that the term "single vaccine" misleads parents into thinking that the vaccination will involve a single jab when it will mean children having six injections? The likelihood is that, if they knew that, it would lead to a fall in immunisation levels as we have seen in other countries and as we saw in this country in the 1970s in relation to whooping cough vaccinations

There are those in the chamber who have tried to run down the work of the expert group that was published on Tuesday. They have been wrong to do that. They should listen to other bodies: the Faculty of Public Health Medicine; the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health; the Royal College of Nursing; the RCPCH public health medicine environmental group; the Community Practitioners and Health Visitors Association; and the public health laboratory service.

All those bodies care deeply about our health service, children and parents and would not advise us to continue with the strategy if they did not believe deeply that it is right. I genuinely hope that members will avoid the temptation to score political points. Instead, in the months and years ahead, they should get behind the expert group, its report and the action that is required on research and services to ensure that we rebuild confidence in the health service's vaccination programme.

Does the First Minister agree that, at 66 per cent and 73 per cent respectively, the uptake of the MMR vaccine in the Western Isles and the Highlands is now at a critically low level? Will he consider offering the single vaccine to people who, despite all the advice from GPs and others, are not choosing any vaccine at all?

As the convener of the Health and Community Care Committee has said, the evidence is that, if we did that, it would reduce vaccination levels even further, which would be damaging for children in Scotland. It is important that we use the clinical judgment of our GPs and doctors. Where they think it appropriate for someone to receive a single jab, they already make such a recommendation. However, it is most important that we stick with the national vaccination programme and encourage people not to put their own and others' children at risk by choosing not to take the vaccine. I hope that the expert group's report, which was published this week, encourages many more people to take it.

---

Social Harmony

To ask the First Minister whether the Scottish Executive plans to introduce any new policy or programmes designed to promote social, racial and inter-community harmony. (S1F-1871)

Racism must have no place in modern Scotland. Later this year, we will launch an anti-racism campaign to help to stamp out racist attitudes and actions. I hope that all parties in the chamber will join that campaign.

I am delighted to hear that. Given the current situation, is the First Minister willing to accept responsibility for a more sharply focused anti-racism, anti-sectarianism campaign? Last night, the Finsbury Park synagogue was desecrated in a way that might well be copycatted. Although the Scottish Parliament is not responsible for immigration policies or for any of the other foreign policy attitudes that might underlie such behaviour—if they do not encourage such behaviour, they certainly do not prevent it—I ask the Executive to accept more responsibility, to ensure that no such copycat behaviour takes place in Scotland. I have lodged a motion on the subject, and I invite the Prime Minister, I mean the First Minister—oh gosh, that was Freudian.

Order. You can speak to your motion when we come to it, but at the moment we are taking questions.

I crave your indulgence, Presiding Officer. We all know about the current situation, and I ask the First Minister to set a precedent by putting his signature to a motion on anti-Semitic behaviour in Scotland.

Order. Ministers do not sign motions anyway.

First Minister, do you want to take that question?

Yes. First of all, we have to continue with the programme of work that is already well under way. In the area of justice alone, we have introduced a new and rigorous equal opportunities programme for police, and the Crown Office is tightly implementing a policy of monitoring racist crime. We will publish a code for reporting and recording racist incidents across the public sector, and the money is now in place to tackle institutional racism in the national health service. Furthermore, just a few months ago, Nicol Stephen published a leaflet on tackling the bullying of asylum seekers' children in Scotland's schools. We are taking action to combat racism across the areas for which the Executive is responsible.

I wish to make one point: we cannot be complacent about racism in Scotland. There is a myth that such attitudes do not exist in this country. Although in recent centuries Scots have travelled all over the world and have been welcomed in many countries, we need to be as welcoming in return. Moreover, we must recognise that a multicultural society in Scotland that welcomes people from different backgrounds, races and countries will be stronger and more confident to take its place in the modern world. The Executive and the whole Parliament should back that job.

---

Euro 2008

To ask the First Minister what progress has been made in the bid for the 2008 European football championships. (S1F-1857)

Good progress has been made with the Scotland-Ireland bid for Euro 2008. Mike Watson, Ireland's Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation Dr Jim McDaid, and I visited the Union of European Football Associations congress in Stockholm last week. The Scotland-Ireland bid was highly rated and we are on schedule to submit the technical bid to UEFA by the end of May.

I am sure that the First Minister will accept my welcome for that, but will he also assure me that, given the serious financial situation that many Scottish senior league clubs are facing, the bid for Euro 2008 will not disadvantage them in any way?

If I did not believe that the success of bringing the championships to Scotland and Ireland in 2008 would benefit Scottish football clubs, and youth football in particular, I would not support it. It is vital that we campaign for that bid to succeed, not just to promote Scotland as a venue for international events and not just for the economic benefits that it will bring, but for the boost to football and sport in Scotland that it will give. As members will be aware, we have agreed with the Scottish Football Association that a substantial proportion of any profit made from a successful championship in 2008 will be invested in youth football and youth sport.

Does the First Minister agree that one of the benefits of a successful bid would be to reinvigorate interest in local community teams? Will he join me in expressing sympathy with the fans of Airdrieonians Football Club and wish them well in their endeavours to retain a senior football club in Airdire?

All members will agree that it is a tragic shame for the town of Airdrie, as well as for the football supporters, that the football club has reached the situation that it is currently in. Football clubs in local communities in Scotland's small towns are a vital part of those towns' identity on the national map. I hope that, in Airdrie and elsewhere, the name of Airdrieonians Football Club will be retained in years to come.

It is important to recognise that, for all that is occasionally said about the work of MSPs, this case is a good example of a local member who has worked tirelessly to try to secure the future of the club, and I praise Karen Whitefield for that. I hope that all members will join me in wishing the fans and other local people all the best in trying to resurrect Airdrieonians Football Club in the months ahead.