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I welcome everyone to this meeting of the Equal Opportunities Committee. I apologise profusely for the half-hour delay in starting the meeting. Some members have had problems in getting here—there have been some traffic problems. Other members will arrive. We have received apologies from Tommy Sheridan, Elaine Smith, Jamie Stone, Kay Ullrich and Lyndsay McIntosh.
I inform members of the public that I will be attempting to pronounce some Greek words. If anyone laughs, I will have them ejected.
I thank Gil Paterson. I think that I forgot to mention that Gil is the disability reporter for the Equal Opportunities Committee. He has asked the committee to agree that I should send letters on behalf of the committee to acknowledge the hard work of the many groups that were involved. Are members agreed that I should do so?
Michael, do you have any questions for Gil?
No.
As Gil Paterson said, the full report on the launch will be presented to the committee and will be posted on the Equal Opportunities Committee's website. I am sure that, if any members of the public or any organisations that are present have any questions for Gil Paterson about the launch, they will be most welcome to e-mail him once the report has been posted on the website. Thank you, Gil.
I will start. Thank you for inviting us along today. I hoped that one of our service users or a member of staff from one of our projects would be able to come. I apologise for being unable to arrange that. I extend an invitation to committee members to visit some of our young people during the year.
I concur with most of what has been said. Any raising of awareness is good, if that awareness is sufficiently wide to cover all groups of people. I suppose that I would have liked some young people to be represented here. When I gave evidence previously to a parliamentary committee, I took a youngster from my school. His evidence was infinitely more powerful than that of the professionals, who were paid to be there, if you like.
I agree with everything that has been said. From our perspective, awareness is a big problem. Many workplaces and employers seem to think that awareness raising is a gimmick, but it must be a great deal more than that. It must be something sustainable that addresses many issues across society.
Douglas Hamilton suggested a visit for the committee, but, unfortunately, the committee dissolves at the end of March—that is not as uncomfortable as it sounds. However, we are preparing a legacy paper for a future Equal Opportunities Committee. The clerks will take a note of the invitation and I am sure that a future committee will want to take it up. We invited some young people to give evidence, but they were not able to come.
I do not think that the year has been well publicised to the people who need to know about it, although I do not know what steps have been taken to publicise it. People watch television and youngsters go to places such as McDonald's. I wonder whether the publicity has been too formal to reach the people who might say, "Great, that is about me and this is an opportunity for me to do something."
That is an interesting point.
Barnardo's Scotland received money through the European year of disabled people to run a project. However, even though I am in the system, I was not aware of the Scottish launch until after it had happened. I was aware of the UK launch and I was invited to it, but we did not receive any word about the Scottish one. I admit that we must take steps to connect with what is happening in Scotland, but, at the early stages, the communication did not work both ways.
Your answer pre-empts my next question. I was going to ask what involvement the witnesses' organisations had in the preparation for the European year of disabled people, either at a Scottish or UK level. When the committee first discussed the matter, we were concerned to encourage the participation of organisations that are heavily involved in the issues.
We have been given around £10,000 through the European year of disabled people for project work in three of our services. The project encourages the participation of children and young people through the snakes and ladders training game, which some members might have played at party conferences. We hope to use that model to allow the views of young people with disabilities to be heard in the wider community. The groups in Dundee, Inverclyde and West Lothian aim to provide a safe environment in the community for young people to tell local authorities, employers, schools and health workers about the issues that affect them. The money that has come through the European year of disabled people will focus on that.
I am fortunate because I have been involved in the Scottish steering group for the European year of disabled people. I disseminated information about our activities as widely as I could, but some of the work has been limited. A classic example is that, on the day of the launch, there was a newspaper supplement about the European year of disabled people, but, as far as I am aware, it appeared in only one format in one newspaper and so was not accessible to many people. The supplement was not even in the newspaper that the Scottish steering group had been advised it would be in, so even we were not aware of where to find out what was happening. Moreover, the supplement was not trailed on the front of the newspaper but hidden in the middle. I accept that it is early days, but we clearly must do more to raise the profile.
We have had no involvement.
I have been hogging the questions, so I will let Michael McMahon in.
Thanks, convener. I apologise for being late this morning.
My experience of dealing with employers has been somewhat confrontational, which is unfortunate. One side tends to be looking for something, while the other side is costing it. There is a lot to be said for a partnership approach to exploring the benefits of long-term support for disabled people who are in the workplace or trying to re-enter it. We need to think more about partnerships than about "them" and "us". That agenda is being taken on board quite effectively by the public and voluntary sectors. We need to maintain that momentum.
A few years ago, I attended the launch of an initiative by the Confederation of British Industry. The CBI had identified that it was losing out on the potential of a large section of the community because it was not sufficiently aware of disabled people's needs. Have you any experience of a change of attitude in the business community, even if that has been because of the regulatory demands on it? Has any progress been made?
I shall hand that question over to Iain Montgomery.
That is called delegation.
There have certainly been improvements in attitude. Some of that has been the result of regulations, but there is a growing awareness that benefits can be gained from doing more than the minimum.
We have to consider access, and what we mean by it, carefully. For people with whom I work—most of them are profoundly deaf—access to work is limited by access to post-school education, which enables people to compete effectively. We get into circular arguments when young people leave us and there is little or poor post-school support. For example, we have observed that there is a shortage of people to train our hearing staff in British Sign Language; we want them to be trained by deaf people, because BSL is their language, but no courses in Scotland train deaf people to do that work. A problem for industry is that there are not enough trained deaf people to run courses on deaf awareness in firms that could easily employ deaf people.
I shall change tack a little. On numerous occasions, when the committee has discussed in general terms initiatives to promote any one of the range of equalities, young people say, "Where do we fit into this?" Is enough being done for young people? Are they being represented in the initiatives that you mention? Specifically, how does the EYDP assist young people and what sort of representation do young people have generally in disability groups?
A couple of years ago, I was involved in some research that examined the participation of children and young people generally throughout Scotland. Three groups of young people who were not participating in existing structures were highlighted. They were children from ethnic minorities, very young children and children with disabilities. There have been attempts to find ways of working with children and young people with disabilities, such as those with communication difficulties and learning disabilities, to enable them to participate. The organisation Children in Scotland has been carrying out a project on that issue, which will also be a focus for our work this year.
Government has to make the legislation that it introduces in relation to disabled people accessible to the disabled person. This week, I asked a profoundly deaf, sign-reading sixth-year pupil who was going to a university for an exam whether the university had arranged for an interpreter. He said that he did not know, as his letter did not say. I told him to contact the university to tell it that he required one, but he said that it would not listen. I told him that the Disability Discrimination Act 1995 requires it to provide one. Enabled by the knowledge of the law, he was much more confident and I hope that he has told the university that the bill for the interpreter should go to it, not to him. The point is that he did not know what his rights were. Government must ensure that legislation is understood by the people whom it affects.
We know the good work that Capability Scotland and Enable do, but do young people feel that they can engage with national organisations? Can they get involved and ensure that their voices will be heard by such groups?
That is a challenge. In the trade union movement, a lot of work is done to encourage young people to become more involved, but the initial visual impact of national organisations, particularly the trade union movement, is of a lot of old fuddy-duddies who have been around for years. Young people cannot see the relevance of such organisations, but it is important that they do. We need to make them aware of the fact that the organisations are not only relevant to them now, but will continue to be so as they grow up and mature.
As a former chair of the Scottish Trades Union Congress youth committee and now a fuddy-duddy, I can sympathise with what you are saying. The problem that you talk about can mean that children do not have access to the mechanisms that allow their voices to be heard.
A lot of disabled people and young people are not involved in groups. Within Barnardo's, we have seven dedicated services that work with children with physical or learning disabilities. However, we would not be seen as one of the groups that you are talking about. There is a responsibility on organisations such as ours to try to provide links where we have them at other levels. We have to reach out to children and young people where they are and enable existing structures to make themselves accessible to those children and young people.
Will the European initiative enhance what we already have or kick-start something that people have been looking for for a long time?
To an extent, we are looking for things that we can get going—a lot of national work is being done in relation to that, although it is at an early stage. As Janet Allan said, we have to get the message out to children and young people that they can get involved and we have to provide them with opportunities to do so. That would be a positive outcome from the European year of disabled people.
There is also a large group of children and young people who, realistically, will not be able to have an influence themselves, and their parents will be important as their mouthpiece. For the parents I deal with, one of the great difficulties is finance; they cannot work because there is no specialist child care. Another problem is simply getting their act together, because there are so many people to see. To empower parents, we need better child care and facilities for specific things, such as getting tuned into any of the initiatives that their children need help with. That would help.
I am sure that we will take that on board.
One of the objectives is to raise awareness of the multiple discrimination that faces people with disabilities. How do you feel that the issues of multiple discrimination are being addressed, if at all, and what changes would you like to result from this year's activities?
Reference has already been made to our Apna project in Glasgow, which involves working with children with disabilities from ethnic minorities. As far as I am aware, the project is one of very few such services in Scotland, if not the only one. It is certainly the only project in Glasgow that has that focus. I was speaking to the service manager earlier this week and discovered that there are plans afoot to increase the service. There are bilingual workers who provide an appropriate and culturally aware service, but there is now a waiting list.
I wholly support that. We were discussing a colleague who is taking up a position with Scottish Women's Aid, which provides a service for disabled women and women with disabled children who are looking for refuge. That sort of facility is unique. There is a tendency for society to put people into categories, and if someone crosses over one or more categories society finds it difficult to accept the issues or to realise what they are. We must be far more aware of dual discrimination and how we can address it.
The Madrid declaration recommends that local authorities should draft plans of action on disability in co-operation with local representatives and organisations, so that they can spearhead activities in their communities. Do you feel that that would be a constructive way forward? If so, how could people work more closely with local authorities? We are concerned that those very people do not have information, so perhaps that would be better addressed at local level. It is important that local authorities are proactive, but how do we encourage them to be proactive?
It would depend on which branches of local authorities—social work, education and so on—you were dealing with. When I think of multiple discrimination, I think of young infants who have no access to services. Disabled parents of disabled children have been mentioned. We have a wee one in school who was not picked up by any service until her mother went into Department of Health and Social Security bed-and-breakfast accommodation with five children, including that child, who had very complex needs. We load discrimination on discrimination as those babies become children, then adults, and more and more opportunities are missed. Education starts at three, but we need to provide services earlier than that, perhaps through health departments.
You are talking about delivery through education or through health. Do you agree that, with local authority plans, we should be looking at mainstreaming and working across departments? It is too easy to pass issues relating to disabilities to the social work department, for instance, when they could involve everything from planning to education to housing. All departments that deliver services to communities need to be aware of the services that they need to deliver to people with disabilities.
I would not argue with that. Joined-up thinking in local authorities is important, but there is a danger that the departments create a superstructure of industry, in which they talk to each other yet the actual delivery to the person who needs the service does not happen, because the structure is so complex and it is not clear who takes responsibility.
That was my point. How do local authorities then engage with their communities and with local voluntary organisations?
Local authorities already do some very good work in this area, and some of it is joined up. That work is about engaging with groups of disabled people or people who are discriminated against and involving them in the process. Children's services plans, which already exist in local authorities, are quite a good model, because they involve a full range of departments, but they also involve the people who ultimately benefit from the services that are provided. Again, it is about profile and awareness. It is about letting groups and individuals know that the opportunity exists, and making the opportunity accessible to them in terms of communication and physical access, and ensuring that their views are taken on board and that they drive the agenda.
I agree. Children's services plans are probably the logical place to start, because children with disabilities should be counted in those plans as children in need. Services plans are supposed to be corporate documents anyway, so that is the logical route. New structures do not need to be created. We should ensure that those plans work effectively.
As an MSP, most complaints that I get from parents are from those who have younger children with special educational needs. They complain that local authorities never listen to them and that they feel excluded from such plans. How can we encourage local authorities and others to listen to those parents?
Without beating them with a stick?
I do not care what we beat them with.
We hope that the provisions in the draft education (additional support for learning) (Scotland) bill to allow a supportive person to be alongside will go some way to addressing those concerns and will place more focus on listening to those people who are affected.
Sometimes there are issues with the parents of disabled children in that they want specific education services for their children, but the authority, which is the provider and is responsible for paying, turns them down for one reason or another. If the parents want to appeal, they appeal to the authority, and find themselves going round in circles. For every one child who comes to us, we probably have three parents who would say, "We were not listened to." Choice should be available, but it is not, and because the appeal body is the local authority, the parents go round in circles.
My background is in the voluntary sector, and I am reminded of the many years with this or that theme, or the flavour of the month or the flavour of that year, and everyone getting really excited that this would be the year to challenge a particular issue. How do we ensure that this year's flavour of the year does not disappear to make room for next year's flavour of the year? How do we ensure sustainability on issues relating to disability? How do we ensure that some of the issues that have been raised or are starting to be raised this year are kept on the agenda?
I can think of a number of ways to ensure that. Indeed, it is a shame that the Equal Opportunities Committee will be dissolving soon. Hopefully, those issues could be covered in your legacy paper and it would then be a matter of continuing the work that is being done now. You could set goals and call for certain things to be achieved by the end of the year. In relation to the participation of children and young people, for example, you could aim to have the structures, or at least the plans, in place by the end of the year for that to happen in the future.
There are certainly plans. There is also the more cynical approach, whereby we ensure that we engage people's self-interest. At the launch of the year, we heard a very good presentation from an employee of B&Q, who spoke about the benefits to her employer of being more disabled aware and disabled accessible. If it is possible to engage people in that way, that will maintain the momentum and ensure that people keep their interest after the European year and the pat on the head, and after all the bunting has gone back in the box. It is important to view people's actions as positive: it is not just about having to do things, but about wanting to do them.
How will we be able to tell whether we have achieved the aims of the European year of disabled people? I will throw another question on top of that, for people to think about. I have deliberately used the acronym "EYDP" in my report. Using the acronym might seem like using shorthand, or being lazy, but does the use of "EYDP" instead of "European year of disabled people" in full make the year more sexy and highlight it better? If I am lazy and use the acronym—I will do so if I know that I am talking to people who know about it—am I missing out some folk, or does it encourage people to take note of the year?
The targets that are set need to be measurable. When targets are set for the end of the year—as Douglas Hamilton was describing—it is important that we know what the measure of success will be.
We should be slightly cautious, in so far as some of the measures of success will not be apparent over the 12 months. If the successes are truly to be long term, some of them will not become apparent immediately. We need to let people know that, so that they are not disheartened if, at the end of 12 months, they do not see a fundamental change in society, in the public sector or voluntary sector or wherever. We should set milestones rather than targets, and we should build on those. One of the things that we should ask at the end of the year is what we are going to do next. We should remind ourselves at the end of the year that the work is not finished, and we should keep it going.
Do you expect a difference to develop from what is, effectively, a pan-European campaign?
I would like more disabled people to become involved locally. I would like them to realise that what is involved is not just some groups of people speaking for them; they can speak for themselves and become involved locally, then feed their views through those structures. I have always been guilty of thinking that there is just me and that I am all alone. If we use a pan-European campaign properly, people will become involved and will feel stronger for doing so.
Janet Allan spoke about targets. What targets should we aim for? That question is open to everybody.
I agree with Iain Montgomery that a target is not the end point. Targets should cover the inclusion of young people in decision making. How many young disabled people were involved in the conception of the year? Is it what they wanted? Is it the best way to do what they want? I have no idea how the Scottish steering group works, so it is hard for me to specify targets, but the people whom the year is about should be involved in the decision making on it.
Is the year an opportunity for a wider discussion on the definition of disability?
Yes, very much so. The experience is personal. Finding an all-inclusive form of words will be difficult, but the current legalistic form of words is also a difficulty. My trade union is unhappy with that wording and feels that it excludes as many people as it includes. However many amendments are made, people will always be excluded. Rather than legal protection, we should talk about full civil rights, which are the subject of a long-standing campaign that will continue and could run in parallel with the European year of disabled people. We need to consider rights and civic involvement.
As an outsider on such issues, I sometimes feel that it is best not to spend all our time focusing on definitions and that we should recognise needs. Whatever definition is used, the children and young people in question have needs. How do we meet those needs? Regardless of the labels that are attached, I would rather that we raised awareness of those needs, took action to provide services where they are not provided and listened where we do not listen. Sometimes, matters such as definitions can be a distraction from people's needs.
Do any objectives miss a target or have we missed out any objectives?
In the UK's objectives or in the European objectives?
Both, but I suppose that what is happening in Scotland and the UK is more important.
I highlight poverty issues, although they are probably included in the objectives. Poverty is a great need that could be addressed this year. The report that we published last year and sent to all MSPs highlighted the impact on a family of having a disabled child. It can cost three times as much to raise a child with a disability as it costs to raise a child without a disability. A family with a disabled child is less likely to be in work, and Government policies make work the route out of poverty. Because of the condition of a child, work is not an option in many families. How do we deal with that? We need to grapple with such issues.
Is that where the Scottish Parliament can make the difference?
I hope so. Obviously, the Parliament does not have much power over issues related to benefits and social security. However, we have raised issues about the lack of specialist child care that is available for families who have disabled children. The Scottish Parliament could make a difference on issues such as housing adaptations and service provision.
Douglas Hamilton and Janet Allan have talked about the lack of participation of young disabled people in planning and structures such as the Scottish steering group. It occurs to me that, when my daughter and son were young, I would have been vaguely worried about them sitting on steering groups and being involved in committees that were planning things to do with Government initiatives—or anything at all, for that matter. If they had come home and said that they would be sitting on a steering group, I would have been vaguely worried. Would such participation put terrible responsibility and pressure on disabled young people that perhaps they do not want? Is there a desire among disabled young people to be involved in planning at that stage? Would they prefer—as do a lot of younger people—that adults talked to them and took on board their points of view? I suspect that my kids would not have wanted such pressure.
I do not particularly want to sit on planning committees and I would not expect any child or young person to want to do that. I do not think that we have said that the young people should be members of the committees; we want to ensure that their views are heard when the committees make decisions and that things are being done appropriately for them. One of my big bugbears about the participation of children and young people is that it must be fun and the activity must be good.
I agree with Douglas Hamilton to a large extent. I do not think that the young people want to be on committees.
Thank you very much. That has clarified that matter.
Meeting suspended.
On resuming—
I reconvene the meeting and welcome Stuart Duffin from Scottish Chambers of Commerce, Robert Mooney from the National League of the Blind and Disabled and Jim O'Rourke from the Scottish National Federation for the Welfare of the Blind. We had hoped to take evidence from the Minority Ethnic Learning Disability Initiative, but we have received apologies from its representative.
As far as the business community is concerned, such a year is important for raising awareness. We need to build up knowledge, skills and understanding within the business community and across the range of initiatives that involve employees, employers and customers. Raising awareness throughout the business community would be a key outcome of such a year; it is certainly an achievable and laudable target.
Many media issues concern disabled people. Even if all that the European year of the disabled does is open up forums in which such issues can be discussed, that will be a major step forward.
It is important to have a European year of disabled people; however, it is more important that, once the year is over, we do not have to wait until the next year of disabled people for more positive steps to be made. We must ensure that the message gets through to business, employers, employees, education and benefits organisations that disabled people are out there and must be respected as much as anyone else in the community.
What is your response to my question about publicity, which I asked the previous panel of witnesses? Are people in general aware that this is the European year of the disabled, or is it mainly the people in this room who have an interest in the issue? If the people whom we really need to make aware of this event are not aware of it, what more can be done to publicise it and to make people realise what we are trying to do?
For a start, one has to ask where the business representation on the steering group is and, indeed, how we can raise the business community's profile in all the key issues. I speak this morning on behalf of Scottish Chambers of Commerce; however, in my day job, I am chief executive of West Lothian Chamber of Commerce, which has been trying to raise awareness with employers and business through developing links and working with key voluntary sector agencies. By doing so, we hope to develop a toolkit for the small to medium-sized enterprise sector. Such links and the promotion of issues locally are helping to raise awareness, but we are talking about more of a bottom-up approach than a national campaign.
Is awareness being raised of the fact that disabled people have money to spend and that businesses should therefore be made more accessible to disabled people, or is awareness being raised in terms of disabled people needing to earn money so that they can spend it? Has awareness been raised among employers about the importance of being good employers?
Awareness is being raised about both. Business is beginning to recognise that there is an untapped market of customers out there. Let us again take the West Lothian example: the retail sector in West Lothian, especially in Livingston, which is a new town, has the Almondvale shopping centre and the McArthurGlen designer outlet centre. Those are large retail regional outlets that are on the level. It is interesting to look at those developments in relation to the increase in disabled customers that has resulted from the retail community developing its awareness.
I work with Glasgow City Council, and I have been disappointed that the EYDP has not been publicised more within the council. It could have included such information in its monthly magazine or on the notice boards that it has all over the place. Those would be ideal places to publicise the year. I also feel that we should be publicising it to children through education and the schools, in order to raise their awareness.
I am retired and I feel that the issue has not been publicised enough through the media of television, radio, newspapers and advertisements. As a blind person, I feel that the year could also have been publicised more through talking newspapers.
My question is primarily for Stuart Duffin, but Robert Mooney and James O'Rourke may comment. You heard me earlier asking about initiatives in the business community; I mentioned one that the CBI kicked off a few years ago. What is your interpretation of the success of that initiative? Can you give us any examples of other initiatives that have been used by the business community to attract people with disabilities into the work force and to meet their needs?
The CBI initiative was successful for a period, but that success was not sustained. A number of good outcomes could have been achieved if additional support had been given to the initiative, which could have embedded itself in good employment practice. One of the initiatives that we are considering in relation to disability in the work force is to encourage it to be seen as part of the corporate social responsibility agenda; we want to marry those two elements as a key policy directive for business.
Do James O'Rourke or Robert Mooney want to comment on any initiatives?
As far as online buying is concerned, more companies should try to make their websites more friendly to visually impaired people, so that they can use them. There are websites from which visually impaired people can buy online without a problem, but there are many websites that are not visual-impairment friendly.
I have a specific point for Stuart Duffin. I know in general terms that the business community would like education authorities to ensure that the people who come through the education system are ready for employers to take advantage of at the end of the day. However, do you think that the education authorities are aware of the needs of young people with disabilities in ways that allow them, at the end of their schooling, to enter the work force on equal terms with their peers?
There is an issue about capacity building in terms of young people with disabilities—for example, in building their confidence to go into the workplace, which is a new environment in which they are different from their workmates. There is an issue about education of the work force. Our terminology refers to the education of the work force for diverse work forces, so that people and work colleagues can understand the needs of disabled people. There is a multilayered need for education and awareness development that simply does not exist among businesses or employees.
Do you think that education as it stands is geared to ensuring that young people come into the work force prepared in any way for such diversity?
No.
It is obvious that education is important in people eventually becoming employed. I think that most people know that a disabled person is twice as likely not to have any formal certificates when they leave school. I hope, and believe, that that is beginning to change. My son goes to a unit for the visually impaired within Penilee Secondary School. He has gone through the whole mainstream education system. Three pupils who attended the visually impaired unit left school last year and all have got university places—the situation is improving. The majority of children who left school the previous year got university places, so I hope that the situation is beginning to change through that. That is only one example, but I hope that it is being mirrored throughout the country.
My point is on the issue of accessibility to jobs. Robert Mooney is right that more and more young people with disabilities are going to university. I have a young local constituent who is an honours graduate who is hard of hearing, and he is finding it difficult to get Scottish Enterprise to understand and to help him to fund a postgraduate course in information technology. He feels that he could develop his career.
The development of potential must be put on the agenda and sold to people. We need to break down the physical and social barriers that exist and we must develop the skills and potential of young disabled people. We must also consider what type of economic structure we want in Scotland. We talk frequently about social inclusion, but we should also consider economic inclusion as part of that agenda. Perhaps local economic forums have a key role to play in taking forward that economic inclusion agenda; they aim to move the economy forward and employees or potential employees are a key element of that process.
I asked the other witnesses whether they believe that young people's voices are being heard in a way that enables them to gain access to the services that they require within the witnesses' organisations, to the representation that they need and to links with other organisations. Will the European year of disabled people assist in improving matters?
Young disabled people must be encouraged to speak their minds and that encouragement should start at school. They must not feel overawed by their able-bodied counterparts, but should be encouraged to discuss what they want out of life and how they would like to get it. The previous panel of witnesses mentioned young disabled people not wanting to sit on planning committees, but there should be a structure in which young people can speak to local forums, which could then bring their ideas forward. As young disabled people grow more confident, their involvement can be encouraged. There are many clever disabled people out there. I have worked in supportive employment all my life and there have been many opportunities to develop potential. We need to be more aware of the needs of young disabled people.
The issue is about getting beyond the usual suspects, which is difficult. However, there are a couple of initiatives in Scotland. The Scottish Youth Parliament could be a good vehicle for developing the debate about young people, disability and access. We are all aware that the elections are approaching; the Hansard Society Scotland is running mock elections in schools and, in the European year of disabled people, such elections are a very good vehicle for young people to drive the agenda on particular election issues.
Confidence is one of the most important things for disabled people, including disabled children. It is important to try to build confidence; that can be done by integrating children at nursery school level. If disabled children are integrated at that stage, it helps raise their confidence and it is important in helping able-bodied children to accept disabled people. I went to a school for partially sighted children and was taken right out of the community. The school was miles from where I lived and my disabled friends went to schools all over the city. Integration is really important for building confidence.
One of this year's key objectives is to raise awareness of the multiple discrimination that people with disabilities face. How is that being addressed? What changes would you like to result from the year's activities?
In general terms, I would like the disability agenda's becoming a firm part of the community planning agenda to be a key outcome of the year, which would give the agenda a sense of longevity. There must also be engagement with local groups. The best way to embed any idea or policy change is to get people talking about it, regardless of the medium. It is very positive that we are beginning to talk about the issue this year.
I have a multidisabled, visually impaired boy and I would say that there is more awareness in this area now. In particular, a lot of good work is being done with visually impaired people with multiple disabilities through the Royal National Institute for the Blind in Scotland.
I am interested in your opinion on the suitability of any key messages to do with awareness raising that should be conveyed over the year. Which are the important issues to raise, and how do we do that?
The most important issues are employment, education and integration. Forums such as the committee are important. The matter is about getting together with different organisations, including national Government, local authorities and voluntary organisations. We should use this year in particular to get together and talk.
I agree. I add that one of the key messages that needs to be conveyed from the business community's point of view is the message about developing potential. That is about reducing employee turnover and instilling the attitude that people with disabilities are good employees. Keeping good employees is key to the economics of business these days. The corporate social responsibility agenda is also about enhancing industry's corporate reputation, which is a key element that we could achieve this year. The type of business that we want to see in Scotland will determine the sustainability of our economy.
I agree with that. We must ensure that consumers and businesses realise that disabled people are good employees and that they can work, provided that facilities exist for them, which does not always mean paying a lot to enable access or to change things around to make it possible for people to work in a certain environment.
The Madrid declaration recommends that local authorities have draft plans of action on disability and that they work with representatives of local organisations to help to develop those plans and find ways forward. Do you feel that local authorities are able to engage with organisations and individuals with an interest in disability?
That goes back to the point about being more heavily involved in the community planning process and having disability as a key agenda item for the modernisation of local government. Local authorities are beginning to consider area co-ordination teams and to develop joint centres, such as for health and Jobcentre Plus, to create an integrated, connected approach. That is key.
How do you ensure that local authorities are not just paying lip service to an idea? Sometimes people have wonderful plans relating to disability, but the voices of people with disabilities have not been heard in the making of those plans. Local authorities have sometimes been guilty of that. I would be interested in what James or Robert think about ensuring that their voices are heard.
You are probably right. Local authorities throughout Scotland are going up hills and down dales as far as disability is concerned. I have been asked by the organisation that I am representing today to become involved in two local authority task groups on the visually impaired. One is making significant progress, whereas the other seems to be bogged down. People tell me that there are no services at all in some areas; when they ask why, they are told that it is all down to money.
Local authorities are striving to improve their relationships with voluntary organisations, and there are one or two good initiatives. However, I feel strongly that the way forward for local authorities in disability awareness is for them to employ more disabled people.
Absolutely.
How will we know whether the European year of disabled people has fulfilled its aims?
I hope that whatever we bring forward this year continues next year and the following year. As I said at the beginning, we need to ensure that we are not here in three, four or 10 years' time saying exactly the same things that we are saying today. We held a conference on rehabilitation training for the sensory impaired at which we heard rehabilitation officers saying what rehabilitation officers had said 20 years ago. It is important that the agenda moves forward.
It is key that we make links across the sectors. Today's evidence is a testament to that, given that Scottish Chambers of Commerce has given evidence on European year of disabled people. A successful outcome for the European year of disabled people would be the establishment of sustainable links.
As I said earlier, it is important that voluntary organisations, national Government and local government talk together. I hope that if that is achieved this year, it will continue for years to come.
Do you anticipate that that will help to make a difference, particularly for your own organisations or groups?
My organisation is the National League of the Blind and Disabled, which is a division of another trade union—we amalgamated only recently. We will raise awareness of the issues faced by disabled people within the trade union, and that will help.
I hope that this year's Scottish National Federation for the Welfare of the Blind conference, the theme of which was the European year of disabled people, raised the profile of disabled people. We have also set up a rehabilitation sub-group to consider the services that rehabilitation workers give clients. We are considering those services from the point of view of the employee, the client and the employer. We hope to be able to produce some proposals that we will advance through our contacts in the Parliament.
One key hope for the year is the development of an information hub of everybody who has been doing something in the European year of disabled people, so that the information and connections are available for any organisation or business that wants to take a step up the learning curve. It is often difficult, particularly for small businesses, to make such leaps, and having the information available is part and parcel of the year.
I was going to ask whether you thought that setting targets was appropriate, but it is implicit that all three of you have already set some targets. Should the Scottish Parliament set targets? If so, what type of targets should we set?
We are not necessarily setting targets but outcomes—there is a subtle difference between them. If we set targets, we almost set ourselves up for failure, because circumstances might mean that we might not achieve them.
I would like the Scottish Parliament to examine the services that local authorities give disabled people, which often help to get disabled persons into employment. I speak for the visually impaired, but I include all the disabled in what I say. The visually impaired need rehabilitation training—mobility training using a long cane or a guide dog. That training is most important for getting visually impaired people into employment but it is also important for life in general.
I agree with Stuart Duffin. We should not create targets that we might not meet, but we have certain aims, such as more employment for disabled people and a better deal in the education of our disabled children.
So perhaps the definition is to do with goals rather than targets.
Yes, I think so. I think that any year is a good year, but this year in particular is a good opportunity to do that. What everybody should realise is that disability can come to anybody's door at any time. It can come when somebody is born or through illness or accident. A lot of people shy away from disability. You may remember the BBC programme, "Does He Take Sugar?" Many a time, as my disabled colleagues know, somebody will speak over your head to the person who is with you without consulting you at all. If this is the year when we can really raise the profile of disability, let us do it.
This year is a particularly good year, given that there is an election looming—people with disabilities do vote.
Let me write that down.
There is something that we spoke about earlier in relation to access. Access to buildings is obviously important, as is access to reading material for blind people, but it is also important to educate the staff of Government departments and national companies. Access is not just about getting into a building. If I, as a visually impaired person, go into a pub for a pub meal and the menu is written only on a blackboard, I cannot access that information. I can ask a member of staff what is available, and if they read out the menu for me then the accessibility is there and that is fine, but if the member of staff says, "Sorry. I don't have the time. I'm really busy," that becomes a problem. Training is important.
I would like to comment on integration and on understanding and awareness of disabilities in the curriculum. We have mentioned the curriculum and, in particular, the key role of civic education in schools in focusing on the broad disability agenda. Initiatives with the business community can also help to support awareness of disability in small and medium-sized enterprises.
There has been—quite rightly—discussion about business having the toolkit to be able to provide appropriate support for work placements. There are also issues about training. Do you agree that the best people to provide awareness training are groups who have an interest in disability, rather than people who have no experience? Do voluntary sector disability groups have a key role to play, and should they be resourced to do some of that work?
That is vital. We cannot all be good at everything, so we need some areas of specialism. That is a key element in developing a partnership role between the voluntary, public and private sectors in delivering awareness training. In West Lothian, we work with Into Work in delivering and supporting disability initiatives for employees. That partnership needs to be strengthened and facilitated.
I think that Gil Paterson has a short final question.
As much for my own benefit as for anyone else's, I want to take a straw poll of what people think about using the term EYDP, which, as I said earlier, I use as shorthand. Is it a big mistake to use EYDP rather than the longer form? Perhaps anyone in the audience who has a view on that could write to us and let us know.
EYDP sounds like an American medical soap.
So it might work.
It sounds more like a police programme, like "NYPD Blue".
I feel that the long version should definitely be used. If I were to refer to our organisation as the NLBD, most people would probably not know what that is. It is important that we use the longer version.
I agree. If I said that I was from the SNFWB and you did not have the information in front of you, you would have said, "What is that?"
I would have thought that you were here to arrest me.
The use should depend on the context. If the term is being used in a big document, it could sometimes be abbreviated. Perhaps every two or three pages, the term should go back to the full name, so that people can get used to it.
I thank the witnesses for coming along. I also thank all the Parliament staff for organising today's meeting—most people will not be aware of the amount of work that goes into getting us out of the Parliament chambers and into other venues. I also thank the interpreters for facilitating today's meeting
Meeting closed at 12:06.