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Chamber and committees

Education Committee, 29 Oct 2003

Meeting date: Wednesday, October 29, 2003


Contents


Youth Organisations

The Convener:

The next item is youth organisations, which we dealt with at our meeting on 8 October. The clerks have produced a note of some of the issues that emerged. When we heard from the panel of uniformed and non-uniformed youth organisations, we were conscious that we were unable to give a full inquiry's consideration to the matter. Nevertheless, colleagues will agree that many interesting and important issues arose from the representations that we heard. Subject to the committee's agreement, I am minded to ask the Executive for its observations on a number of the issues that arose.

The relevant issues include training and the resourcing of headquarters; they should be viewed against the background that the uniformed organisations in particular are proud of their independence and their long-standing ability to fund themselves. Other issues were raised—is there anything that colleagues would like to take forward?

Rhona Brankin (Midlothian) (Lab):

I was struck by the statistic that showed the number of youngsters who are involved in uniformed organisations. Like you, convener, I believe that those organisations very much value their independence, but there were a couple of areas in which they felt that the Executive could take some action. The first such issue was the organisations' place in the scheme of things. The Executive is developing a youth strategy, and it is important that the role of those organisations in the community is recognised.

Another issue was the changes and challenges that face those organisations, such as the increased need for training and volunteer development, especially with all the disclosure work and the additional requirements for adults who work with young people. The organisations would like to have some sort of support, especially in the areas of training and volunteer development and support.

I had not realised that funding was going from the Ministry of Defence to uniformed organisations, such as the sea cadets and the combined cadet force. We need to get a handle on where that money is being spent. I know that the combined cadet force is only a small part of the uniformed organisations, but for the Ministry of Defence money to be spent virtually exclusively in private schools in Scotland is a bit of an anomaly in this day and age. I would like the Executive to answer questions about where that MOD money is being spent.

The MOD money is not specifically a matter for the Executive. Perhaps we can take up the matter elsewhere, but it is not for the Executive to respond to such questions.

Rhona Brankin:

I disagree with that. Colleagues in Westminster could raise the issue, but it is absolutely an issue for the Scottish Executive to deal with where, for example, that money is used as part of devolved areas of responsibility—in schools or youth work in our communities. That information should be held by the Executive.

The Convener:

There is an overarching strategy in the youth programme that will be presented by the Executive. We should ask when that programme will be available and whether we can have input in the form of a committee inquiry. Training in volunteer development and insurance are issues that have emerged from a number of the organisations. In addition, there is the point that Rhona Brankin made about the combined cadet force.

Although Wendy Alexander is unable to be here this morning, she raised the issue about whether some of the organisations should be talking to the voluntary issues unit in the Executive. We have not mentioned that in the paper.

The Convener:

An issue arose about the extent to which the organisations had access to voluntary sector core funding provision. I was not sure that we got to the heart of the matter, but perhaps we could inquire about that situation. There was a general feeling among some youth organisations that they are under-resourced and undervalued, and we can see where they are coming from. It would be helpful to know whether they have full access to that funding.

Fiona Hyslop:

I am interested in paragraphs 5 and 6 in the paper, which deal with the stability of membership and the great demand for people to join the uniformed organisations. Have we reflected those points properly and have we perhaps been a bit pessimistic in the face of the organisations' evidence? We seem to have been more negative than the organisations were. I am happy for the clerks to check that.

The Convener:

We will leave that one out. I note the suggestion that, were there support for training and resourcing, the problem of voluntary recruitment might be overcome and the girls and boys who are currently unable to access the groups could have that opportunity.

Fiona Hyslop:

The emphasis is on the fact that although the demand exists, there is not a supply of adult volunteers. The paper reads as though there has been a decline in demand from young people, which I do not believe to be the case from the evidence that we heard.

Some of the points in the paper will be covered by the national youth strategy, which will take a more strategic look at what we can do for young people in Scotland. Many matters will be dealt with by the strategy, but we should address some of the immediate issues. We will want an immediate response from the Executive on some of the issues—for example, the insurance, training and health and safety issues.

Paragraph 11 is about concerns that were raised by the Scout Association, which said that it is not aware of any scouts meeting in a school that is financed by a public-private partnership. The second tranche of PPP allocations and contracts will start to be drafted soon; we would like early comment from the Executive about whether there is any mechanism in a standard PPP contract to ensure that community facilities are let to such organisations. I presume that we want an early response to that rather than waiting for the development of the national youth strategy.

Would it be fair to say that that problem is not restricted to PPP schools? There was a suggestion about the difficulties of accessing schools in the summer, at weekends and in general, so the issue is broader than you suggest.

Ms Byrne:

One of my concerns is the funding of generic youth work. The national youth strategy is about to be launched and I am not sure what it will contain, but we should make the point strongly that there is a need for funding of generic youth work. It backs up the volunteer system if there are good core workers to encourage volunteers and to be part of the training system.

Sport is mentioned in the paper, but I wonder whether any evidence was taken from people who run local football teams, for example. Such sport makes up a huge part of the activities for young people in our communities. From my experience, I know that little funding is available to people who run boys', or girls', football teams. They spend half or three quarters of their time fundraising and get tired out very quickly, and the teams fold because of lack of support and lack of money to keep them going. Those activities take place right in the middle of our communities and are crucial to the kind of services that we want for young people.

The Convener:

I suspect that Rosemary Byrne is right on those issues but, in fairness, I do not think that we have much evidence about that kind of thing. That might be one of the issues that we could take up. My feeling is that, once the youth strategy is available and we know the context in which it will operate, we should undertake a more thorough inquiry into youth work generally and follow up such issues at that point. I am not sure whether we are ready to ask the minister specifically about that issue on the basis of the information that we received at our previous meeting.

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton:

I would like to follow up a point that was made by Rhona Brankin. She touched on the relevant point that there should be more opportunities for cadet corps to be based in state schools, wherever there is demand. We could make that point gently to the Ministry of Defence, even if the subject is reserved. It takes a number of years to build up a successful cadet corps, but the opportunities should be spread much more widely throughout the state system than they are at present.

Mr Macintosh:

I was unsure, after hearing the evidence at our previous meeting, how much of the resource that the Ministry of Defence makes available is school based. I know of cadet groups in my constituency that are not linked to schools but are what I would describe as working-class-based organisations.

Is there a distinction between the combined cadet force people and the other three more mainstream groups?

Mr Macintosh:

Yes, that is right. There is a cadet corps in my constituency that is part of the Territorial Army. It is community wide and not linked to a specific school. It provides a valuable opportunity for young people to participate.

I would like to raise a couple of issues. First, is the committee paper that we are discussing a list of observations rather than the committee's view? The points that it contains were all raised, but I do not agree with them all.

The Convener:

No. It is my intention to reflect today's discussion, based on the evidence that we heard last week, in a letter from me to the minister, asking for observation and further feedback on some of the points that we have homed in on—pretty much as we have listed them this morning.

Mr Macintosh:

That is good. I am not sure that I agree with all the points that were made, although the points are worthy of further discussion.

On the issue of funding, there is definitely a problem in youth groups' being treated as groups that are separate from voluntary and adult groups. Indeed, the majority of the support—not just the funding—for voluntary groups is adult oriented and bypasses youth groups. The biggest thing that we could do for those groups is to help the adult volunteers, rather than the young people. That idea came across in the evidence from all the uniformed organisations.

A couple of useful suggestions were made. One was that there should be not just more support, but equity of treatment across local authorities. Some local authorities give support to certain organisations and some do not, and the level of support differs throughout the country. There may be opportunities for the Executive to prescribe local authority best practice or national guidance.

The Convener:

That is one of the ideas that we touched on in our discussion, although we did not get too far with it. We could ask the Executive whether it has any plans to issue guidance or to pursue the matter with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities.

Mr Macintosh:

Exactly. We are flagging up issues that the Executive may wish to address.

On the same note, I think that there is quite a contrast between the best practice that we heard about and our more mixed experience. There is a need for the best practice of the organisations that have been successful in re-branding or re-imaging to be circulated and for all youth organisations to share it.

We should bear it in mind that uniformed organisations operate differently from informal youth clubs. It is a different market, to some degree.

Mr Macintosh:

Indeed. Some things would be shared and some would not, although all organisations share the burden of regulation. That is a complex issue for the whole of government. While it may not be desirable to reduce the burden of regulation—because regulation exists to protect young people—it would be desirable to simplify it and make it more understandable, so that it is less of an obstacle to volunteers and young people.

Many people spoke about the fact that when someone moves from one local authority to another they cannot take their qualifications or Scottish Criminal Record Office check with them. For example, if someone worked as a scout leader in one area and moved after 12 years of volunteering to another local authority, they would have to start from scratch. It would be desirable if they could take their qualifications and SCRO check with them.

We must have been asleep at that point.

Mr Macintosh:

I do not think that I made it up. It was a useful point.

Finally, I would like to know from the Executive what point it has it reached in developing the youth strategy. Will the strategy go out for consultation? Does the Executive wish to have any input from us? We should put down a marker that we would like to have input.

That is a good point.

Rhona Brankin:

I have one last question on volunteer development, which is addressed briefly in the report. Lifelong learning is important in attracting and retaining volunteers. Mention was made of some areas in which there is accreditation for people who work with young people. We should ask the Executive what opportunities are available for voluntary sector workers in youth settings to acquire some sort of accreditation. As well as the regulatory framework that protects young people, it is important that there is some sort of—I do not want to use the term "quality control"—volunteer development to ensure that there are opportunities for volunteers to develop their skills.

The Convener:

Interestingly, the cadets had quite a well-developed system. Shortly after the meeting in Stirling castle, I went to an exhibition on the work of the cadets, such as the outreach project. They had gone some way in developing accreditation for young people and, I think, for their adult leaders as well. That was an interesting development.

Yes. If, for example, guides want to go on and become guiders, they could take bitesize chunks of learning that have some level of accreditation that can be built on to something else outside the movement.

Other groups said that they were doing something with that.

Rhona Brankin:

Our paper on youth organisations mentions that accredited training is available to sports volunteers, so there is some development work in that area. The Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee picked up on the opportunities for the informal lifelong learning sector. Youth organisations regard themselves as organisations that promote lifelong learning.

The Convener:

I was struck by two other points. The first is that Jim Duffy of the scouts said that the training grant had been withdrawn without notice two years ago and had never been replaced. That was all to do with the linkage into adult volunteering money. We might want to address that point, because it is germane.

The other notable feature was the relative lack of contact between the informal youth organisations and schools. That came through quite strongly. They seem to operate in parallel universes. When we are considering the curriculum and enterprise, we should not ignore the contribution of the different sorts of youth organisations to leadership development. We should examine whether the links and interrelationships between schools and the informal network can be strengthened. I am sure that those links must be good in many areas, but that did not emerge strongly from the evidence.

Is it acceptable that we should home in on the national youth strategy and that I write to the Executive, on behalf of the committee, expressing the points that have been discussed this morning and asking the Executive to comment? If I may say so, I thought that we had a good discussion and got good input from the youth organisations. Do members agree with my proposal?

Members indicated agreement.