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Chamber and committees

Education, Lifelong Learning and Culture Committee, 23 Jan 2008

Meeting date: Wednesday, January 23, 2008


Contents


Subordinate Legislation


Individual Learning Account (Scotland) Regulations 2008 (SSI 2008/1)

The Convener:

Agenda item 3 is consideration of a Scottish statutory instrument under the negative procedure. Members have a cover note and a copy of the draft SSI in their papers. No motion to annul has been lodged. The Subordinate Legislation Committee determined that it did not need to draw the Parliament's attention to the instrument. Do members have any comments?

Mary Mulligan:

I note from the information that is before us that the instrument does not need to be approved until 18 February. Would the committee be interested in seeking more information on the instrument? Although at this stage I do not think that we will want to recommend that it not be approved, there are a number of questions that we could pursue. For example, why has the Scottish Government decided that a grant of £500 should be made available to part-time students, especially on a day when we have just completed consideration of the bill that will provide for the removal of a burden of more than £2,000 from some of our full-time students? Are we being ambitious enough in the support that we are giving to part-time students? Are we treating them with an equality that emphasises the worth of education, rather than the educational route that people choose? Is the individual learning account the right and best vehicle for introducing such support?

The Executive note states that the

"course fees for a complete part-time degree programme"

are "around £4,800". That is substantially more than the £500 grant that will be made available. The committee has recognised that we want to encourage more people into education and training and to ensure that people from less traditional backgrounds, who are often part-time students, take up that opportunity. Such people, especially older people with other financial responsibilities, may be deterred by course fees. I want to ensure that we are doing our best to encourage people into education and training. Perhaps the committee could take a bit of time out of its busy agenda to pursue some of the issues that I have raised.

The Convener:

In the light of Mary Mulligan's comments, would the committee like to take evidence on the instrument? There is scope for us to meet next week for a short evidence-taking session on the instrument. Do other members think that that would be helpful and enlightening?

Ken Macintosh:

I think that it would be. Like Mary Mulligan, I welcome the fact that additional funding for part-time learners in Scotland has been found. This is an important subject. Committee colleagues will have been impressed, as I was, by the evidence that Peter Syme from the Open University gave to us on the subject recently. I recall a lengthy inquiry into part-time learning by the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee in a previous session. If the instrument is the outcome of the Government's deliberations on part-time education and is the solution that it is offering, there is merit in our discussing the policy. We need to establish how the Government came to its conclusion and what its long-term objectives are. As Mary Mulligan pointed out, there is still huge inequity in how we treat part-time students as opposed to full-time students.

The measure that we are considering is welcome, but we ought at least to explore the thinking behind the Government's policy on part-time education. I think that significant funding was found recently for part-time education in England and Wales and I am not sure whether the measure will place students in Scotland on a par with students in England and Wales. We could explore such issues. We are talking about an important policy development, which we should explore with the minister. As Mary Mulligan said, vehicles other than ILAs, such as fee waivers, might fund part-time education.

I am conscious that the committee will not meet next week. What is on the agenda for the following week? There is no hurry, given that 18 February seems to be the backstop.

The Convener:

There is no reason why the committee cannot meet next week if it wants to do so. It might be easier to have a short meeting next week, rather than discuss the issue on 6 February, when we will meet for an informal session with Executive officials to discuss the Protection of Vulnerable Groups (Scotland) Act 2007. The minister offered that meeting some time ago because she is aware that the issues are complex, so the meeting might be lengthy.

Ken Macintosh:

I appreciate that, but my preference is for a clear Wednesday morning, to be followed by a busy one. I would prefer it if there were no committee meeting next week and informal and formal meetings on 6 February, even though our agenda that day would be full. As the convener knows, having a clear morning makes quite a difference, given that we have to travel from our constituencies. I would rather come for a full morning. I think that there will be enough time on 6 February to have an informal discussion on vulnerable groups, which will last for about an hour and a half, and a chance to explore issues with the minister in what need not be a long discussion. We would need to ascertain whether the minister would be available.

Officials, rather than ministers, normally attend such meetings.

Rob Gibson:

I agree that we need to find out as much as we can about the approach to getting more people into education, but I am conscious that the committee has a wide remit. The alacrity with which some members want to pursue issues to do with education is not matched by keenness to strike a balance and consider our other areas of responsibility. My interests have been met with comments like, "We'll do culture in our last week", and we do not seem to be striking a balance in our consideration of the country as a whole.

Given that culture was an add-on to the work of the Enterprise and Culture Committee in the previous session of the Parliament, we have a responsibility to take a much more balanced approach to how we plan the time that we spend on culture. Another session on education might be useful and politically important, but we should bear in mind our other areas of responsibility and consider our wider programme of work. I hope that members take that on board.

Elizabeth Smith:

We should discuss part-time education further. The issue is extremely important—and increasingly so. It is vital that we get behind the Government's thinking, which I support in this context, and compare our approach in Scotland with approaches in other nations, so that we get a clear idea of how what we do benefits education and the economy. Therefore, I support the suggestion that we spend a little more time on the matter. It is important that we give it due consideration.

I take Rob Gibson's point, which is a matter for the convener, but culture and education are not mutually exclusive. Many people who study part time are involved with cultural issues and it is important that they should be able to access courses.

Mary Mulligan:

I agree with Rob Gibson's concerns that the committee has not done enough on culture. Perhaps he wants to fill next week's vacant slot with something on that—I am sorry; that was not a serious suggestion. I was not on the committee when the work programme was discussed at the beginning of the session, but the convener has said that committee members can suggest ideas for what the committee could usefully investigate and I would be happy to consider our remit on cultural issues more thoroughly. However, I hope that that will not overshadow the suggestion that support for part-time students is important and that the committee might want to consider it.

Ken Macintosh:

On whether officials appear or the minister appears, I am keen that we discuss the policy background and we cannot really quiz officials about that. That would be unfair, as they would not be in a position to answer. Officials can explain some of the thinking behind the regulations, but they cannot go into explanations of policy. If the regulations are the conclusion of a process of policy development, it would be beneficial—for the Government as well as for us—to have the minister here.

Could we get some written evidence from the ministers on the policy background and take oral evidence from the Government officials? Would that be acceptable to the committee?

The Convener:

I will respond to those points. The committee as a whole agreed its work programme. We probably would not have been taking evidence on support for part-time students if the Government had not laid legislation before us. It has done that, so the discussion becomes about whether we want to take additional evidence. If the Government had laid cultural statutory instruments before us, we may well have wanted to take additional evidence on those.

The Convener:

We need to bear in mind that our work programme will be shaped in a number of ways: by us as committee members; by civic Scotland, which will make representations to us about the issues that the committee should consider; and by the Government, which will bring before us legislative proposals in the form of primary or secondary legislation. We need to reflect on that. I hope that, when the Government publishes its culture bill, which will come to the committee, we will spend a little more time on cultural matters. Evidence-taking sessions on the creative industries are planned for before the summer recess.

We are agreed that we would like to take further evidence on the regulations prior to having to report to the Parliament on 18 February. Mr Macintosh has suggested that we could do that on Wednesday 6 February. I have no objection to that and, if committee members are happy to have a longer committee meeting that would allow us to do that, there is no reason why we cannot combine a formal, on-the-record meeting on the SSI with a private session with the Government officials on the Protection of Vulnerable Groups (Scotland) Act 2007. I take it that the committee is content for the clerks to explore that.

Members indicated agreement.

The Convener:

It is my understanding that the only measure that the committee can take with a negative SSI is to annul it. That has generally been the reason why ministers have not come before committees on such instruments but officials have. We should ask officials to come, and I am sure that they will comply with that request. We can also request that a minister come. If no minister can come, that will not prevent us from taking additional evidence on the regulations or hinder our consideration of them, as it is highly unlikely that we will annul them. Most committee members think that the regulations are worthy of support, but they would like to explore some of the policy issues.

We will make an approach to the Scottish Government, ask whether the cabinet secretary or one of her ministers would like to attend along with officials, and revisit the issue on Wednesday 6 February at our next meeting. I thank members for attending.

Meeting closed at 11:20.