Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee, 18 Mar 2003

Meeting date: Tuesday, March 18, 2003

Official Report 324KB pdf

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Entrepreneurship (Young People)

Item 1 concerns entrepreneurship for young people. I will not read out the names of all of our young witnesses because Sarah Hall of the schools enterprise programme will introduce today's team of witnesses and give an introduction to the programme.

Good afternoon. I thank the convener for the invitation to appear before the committee and for the opportunity the committee has given the young people to have this experience today.

I am the national project manager for the schools enterprise programme in Scotland. I will give a brief overview of the programme and of our activities throughout Scotland. The programme is a three-year programme that is funded jointly by the Scottish Executive and the private sector in the shape of Schools Enterprise Scotland Ltd. We are about to enter the third year of the programme—as of 1 July 2003, there will be one year left.

We employ 36 enterprise education support officers—or EESOs, as we call them—who are, in the main, seconded teachers. The role of an EESO is to train teachers throughout Scotland in how to deliver enterprise education in schools. EESOs also support teachers in putting together enterprise projects. The programme operates throughout Scotland, from the Western Isles and Orkney to Dumfries and Galloway, and it has proved to be extremely successful.

Since the programme was set up, we have trained 5,000 teachers throughout Scotland. The aim of the project is to offer each child in Scotland the opportunity to have three enterprise experiences during the five-to-14 curriculum. During the time the project has run, at least 38,000 children have had at least one enterprise experience. When members listen to the children's evidence, they will hear about the skills that they are learning, such as motivation, leadership, self-confidence and self-esteem—all of which are extremely important in an enterprise culture.

Careers Scotland manages the programme on behalf of the Scottish Executive and Schools Enterprise Scotland Ltd. Although I am the only staff member, the EESOs do the work. I now hand over to Marie Maclean, who is a class teacher at St Helen's Primary School and who will introduce the children.

Enterprise is a wonderful enhancement to the curriculum. Members will hear from the children what they have achieved in the enterprise programme and about their experiences of it, especially in the last year of the programme. As Lisa Naidoo, who is sitting beside me, is in her last year of enterprise, she has the most experience. When members hear what the children have to say, they will realise what a big place enterprise has in our curriculum at St Helen's.

We will start with the youngest children. Dionne Coyle will lead off for us.

Good afternoon. I am in primary 5 and I am nine years old. I am here to tell you about our enterprise, which started last year when Mrs Maclean asked the primary 7s whether they wanted to do decoupage for their enterprise. After they had done that for a while, she told all the classes that they could do all different things for their enterprise, such as making candles, fridge magnets and bookmarks. The primary 5s got to do bookmarks and were quite glad about that. There is also a personal stamp that a girl who was in primary 7 designed last year.

There was quite a lot of equipment involved, such as peel-offs, a computer for printing picture bookmarks, a guillotine and a mini Xyron machine. There was ordering card as well. Mrs Duffy helped us with the bookmarks and would stamp the back when we were finished, before putting them through the Xyron machine. She made a good job of it.

After about three weeks, we sold our bookmarks in a craft fair that we held. That was a good experience for primary 5. It was a good idea to let us take part. We all thought it was fun and enjoyable.

Jack Burns will tell you about his experience as a quality controller.

Good afternoon. I am here to tell you about my quality controlling work on the bookmarks.

I was interviewed by my classmates on what subjects I was good at, for example reading, spelling, creating things and drawing. They counted my score and I got a lot of votes for quality controller, so I got the job. There was another quality controller—a girl called Lauren—who also got a lot of votes after being asked the same questions. We both became quality controllers and have quality controlled a bookmark for a newspaper reporter.

Good afternoon. My name is Paul Moran and beside me is Rachael Kennedy. We are 10-year-olds and are in primary 6. We started our enterprise in September and started to make fridge magnets. We all made up logos and names and decided on Ice Cool Magnets. Then we had interviews for jobs, which included bookkeeper, secretary, quality controllers, order takers and so on. We wrote a letter to our head teacher, Mrs Quinn, to ask for a £50 loan. After that, we got £30 sponsorship from the mum of a girl in our class, Mrs Psaros, and £10 sponsorship from Mr Maclean, the husband of the primary 7 teacher, Mrs Maclean. One month later, we received a £50 grant, which meant that we could repay Mrs Quinn. Therefore, we made a profit.

After that, we bought wrapping paper and cut out shapes that would interest adults and children. Some people brought in magazines and we cut out pictures of famous people's heads to make into magnets. We also asked people to bring in photographs that could be made into magnets. We advertised by making posters and putting them up around the school, which made more customers order photo magnets. After that, we handed out one extra poster to every class. We got lots of coloured card and stuck the pictures that we had cut out onto it, then we used wave scissors and cut around the shape of the pictures, leaving a small border of card. We used the Xyron machine to make fridge magnets, but unfortunately we did not have a lot of the magnet cartridge left from the last time that the Xyron was used, so we used Mrs Psaros's sponsorship money to buy a cartridge.

When we were ready to make the magnets, we put the pictures that were mounted on card through the Xyron machine. When they came out, we cut off the excess magnet cartridge and used the wave scissors again to give them a nice edge. We wanted to sell the magnets at the Christmas fair to raise funds for the school. At the fair, we stuck our magnets on a magnetic board. It was a big success and we sold almost all of our magnets.

We are still selling photo magnets and making money for the school. Our class has really enjoyed making the magnets and we cannot wait until next year, when we hope to have another enterprise project.

Thank you for listening.

It was a pleasure.

The next project is a joint project, which Paul and Rachel from primary 7a and Caroline and Lisa from primary 7b will talk about.

Good afternoon. I am here to talk about the enterprise project that took place in my school. We started the project with funds from our previous enterprise project, a business enterprise grant of £50, a £50 loan from the school and sponsorship money from our business partner, the Happy Stamper, which also did workshops for us and provided materials. Margaret of the Happy Stamper also helped out at some of our card-making sessions and give us tips and new ideas.

At the start of the enterprise, posters that advertised the posts that were to be filled were put up in the area. Application forms had to be requested and filled out and there were interviews. Children who did not apply for the posts were on the interview panel. A person was not told immediately whether they got the job—they got a letter through the post about a week later. The posts were advertisers, bookkeepers, a secretary, quality controllers and stock order posts.

I want to talk mainly about our primary 7 enterprise, but also about our school enterprise. In our enterprise, we did decoupage cards, flower arranging, card making, decoupage pictures, yo-yos, gift boxes and candle making. We have had a lot of help from people in the community. The Happy Stamper was our business partner. As well as giving us money, Margaret of the Happy Stamper gave us materials and did workshops that included us, children from other stages, teachers and classroom assistants. Her workshops used a machine called a Xyron, which was bought from the profits from last year's enterprise in primary 6 and primary 7. The Xyron was used in three different enterprises. We used it to make our cards sparkle, the primary 6 class used it to make fridge magnets and the primary 5 class used it to make bookmarks.

This year, some of our parents also sponsored us. We sent out a newsletter to parents asking for financial support. When they sent in money, we sent handmade thank-you cards to them.

A number of primary 7 children decided to start up their own small businesses from home. They received loans from their parents and grandparents to buy materials. Some of them ordered materials from Margaret of the Happy Stamper, some used Mrs Maclean's catalogues and some ordered materials online, with their parents' support. As well as selling cards to their parents, families and friends, they booked tables at the craft fair. After that, they paid back their loans and bought more materials. Quite a few children got stamping things for Christmas.

Jillian and Erin formed a partnership so that they could split the cost of the stamping tools. They made up a name for their company and printed out order forms for their customers. As well as going to Mrs Maclean's lunch club for card making, some children go to the Happy Stamper after school for extra classes.

The teachers decided to have a wholesale craft fair before Christmas—even the nursery took part. I will go through all our enterprises. The nursery made sweet bags and candles in glasses; primary 1 made paperweights; primary 2 made notepaper and envelopes; primary 3 made notelets; primary 4 made Christmas gift tags; primary 5 made bookmarks; primary 5 and primary 6 made dried flowers; primary 6 made fridge magnets; and primary 7 made cards, candles, flower baskets, gift boxes and decoupage pictures.

The craft fair was a huge success. The advertising group put an advert in the local paper, put posters up in the local shops and school and sent out a newsletter. We sold out of everything—even tea and coffee—and we all enjoyed ourselves. The hall was beautifully decorated and our Christmas tree was up. We had a fun time.

I am the bookkeeper for a primary 7 enterprise called Crafty Kids. I had to apply for my job by filling out an application form. I then had an interview. I was given the job after a class vote. Once I was chosen, Mrs Maule—who is one of the auxiliaries—gave me a book in which to keep all the outgoings and incomings. Mrs Maule also showed me where the money should be kept.

Whenever we were given an order, Lisa Naidoo would give me the money, which I filed in my account book. When a lot of money built up, I would take it to the office to be banked, because having hundreds of pounds in one small box would not be safe. I also had to log sponsor money that had been given by parents or companies and I had to take it along to the office. I took care of outgoings as well as incomings. When the enterprise purchased something, I was given a copy of the receipt and the money was subtracted from our total.

That way, I could see clearly how much money we were making and whether we were running at a loss. At Christmas, our enterprise received a number of big card orders from companies in Glasgow, some for hundreds at a time. That happened first when the primary 5 business partner, Kevin Maguire of Linn Consultants—our business partner last year—saw some of our cards and ordered them well in advance. When some of Mr Maguire's clients saw his order they ordered their personalised Christmas cards from us as well. Each time a cheque came in the post I had to write it in my book and take it to the auxiliaries to be banked. We also had a big order from the school.

When we had our craft fair, I had the task of counting the money. We made £515.78 on that day alone. I added up all the other money we made from orders and subtracted it from the money we spent, which left us with about £550. All the classes in the school had a part to play in the craft fair, so overall we made around £1,600.

After the school fair, different classes put proposals to the school council on how we should spend our profits. Some of the profits were used to buy stock for the card-making lunch club, which Mrs Maclean runs every day. The rest of the money went on buying school benches with concrete bases. That is a good investment for two reasons: children who have special needs can use them, and vandals cannot carry them over the fence as they did with all the previous ones.

I feel that the job has taught me a lot and has given me a taste of what it would be like to work with money in a bank.

Good afternoon. In my spare time in school I participate in the Crafty Kids enterprise lunch club. I have been going to it for three years, and I now play quite an important role in the enterprise. For the past two years I have been in charge of orders, although this year it was a challenge to keep my post. Last year, Mrs Maclean appointed the job of looking after orders to me. My job was to take care of money that came in from the orders and assign orders to certain people. In that year, most of our profit was from orders. Soon the orders became too much for me alone, and Mrs Maclean and I decided to appoint an assistant.

When we returned to school in primary 7, I had doubts about whether my job with orders would be safe. I was unlucky and my thoughts were correct, so I had to re-apply for my post. It was very simple: all I had to do was to fill out an application form and face a grilling interview in front of the primary 7s. Then I had to wait for everyone to vote. I then had to wait for one more week before I received in the post my letter of congratulations or apologies. I am pleased to say that I was voted in for the orders post.

At the moment my partner is Jillian Reilly and the business for orders is still booming. My life as an orders person was hectic. As I may have said, I was responsible for the orders that I was given. It was my duty to get the information that was needed to create the card the right way and to make sure that it was finished on time. If that did not happen, it was my fault and my problem, because it was me who had to explain to the customer what had happened. As most of us would not want that to happen, I made sure that I appointed each card order to the right person. I had to make sure that the person knew exactly what they were doing and that help was at hand but, most important, that they knew their deadline.

The majority of our orders are for Charles Rennie Mackintosh cards. One girl—Jane O'Toole—specialises in that sort of card. She was always flooded with orders for Rennie Mackintosh cards. As Jane's cards were in such big demand, she sometimes asked someone else to help her to complete her orders to suit the demands of the individual customers. They could get that information from my order book. Jane's cards were so versatile that we kept a store of blank ones. When someone needed a card urgently we just had to put a peel-off message on the front and a typed insert inside.

Orders were checked by the quality controllers before they were delivered. They used my order book to make sure that the design and colours were correct, that there was a clean envelope of the correct size, and that the cards were bagged and priced. I delivered the cards with a receipt showing the price. Sometimes I had to chase the customers for the money. The receipt was duplicated, so I knew that if it was not ticked off in my duplicate book it had not been paid. That happened because parents and pupils would sometimes take a card without paying. The enterprise had to keep on top of those things. I then gave any moneys received to Carleen to bank.

Since starting the job two years ago, I have worked to my full potential, along with the other children. I have enjoyed earning every single penny and making every single card. I feel that the project and the job have opened up a whole new gateway to jobs that my friends and I can venture into.

I think that, when they listen to the children, members can tell that we take enterprise quite seriously at St Helen's. We ensure that we follow all the correct procedures. There is no favouritism; everything is decided by votes. I think that the children have had a great experience.

The children who did the project last year and who are now at St Maurice's High School might have moved on, but four girls at the high school are currently running their own businesses, which they started when they were with us. They keep in contact to get advice. I know from the suppliers that they use that they are running their businesses independently and are selling their cards; if you stood still for long enough, I assure you that you would buy more than one card from them.

Enterprise is a wonderful way to enhance learning. Because they are enjoying themselves, the children do not realise that they are learning maths, language and all the other skills that we are giving them. I recommend enterprise projects to every teacher and I am sure that Jean Shields will agree with me.

I definitely agree. The children get wrapped up in their projects and in what they are producing. They do not always realise what they are learning and what core skills they are using. Think about the children's self-esteem, and about the confidence that they are displaying in sitting and talking to you today—that is apparent to teachers, when they stand back and watch them. Enterprise projects are not just for the very able, nor are they just for the very poor—enterprise is for everybody.

Regardless of his or her ability, every child will have a really exciting experience somewhere in enterprise—no one is left out because enterprise can be tailored to any child's needs, which can be quite difficult to achieve in other areas of the curriculum.

An enterprise project is sometimes better for middle-of-the-road children because they can, in such projects, show what they are worth. Children do not need to be very academic to show what they can do. Such children are often the ones who shine, because they are the ones who can be depended on. The children also get to recognise one another's skills—not just their own—through their enterprise. They are quick at telling one another when they are not good at something, but they are also quick at recognising one another's abilities.

In enterprise, learning—rather than the product—is most important and of most value although, as Marie Maclean said, the children and the teacher must believe in their product; it does not matter whether it is a community project or an environmental project.

That was a fantastic presentation. It is just a pity that you were not here three or four years ago, because we could have got you to take over the project for the new Parliament building, which would have been kept well under control.

We have a few ideas about that.

I will open up the meeting to questions, to both the children and the adult witnesses. I start with two quick questions for the children—you can just stick your hands up. First, do you think that profit is a good thing?

Witnesses indicated agreement.

Good—nobody disagrees. I ask the lady who was a bookkeeper and who still has her hand up: why do you think profit is a good thing?

Because if we make a profit we can buy more things to put into our business, and we can extend the business and do more, so that more people enjoy our cards. We can do other things: if someone is just making cards but then buys a Xyron machine, they can do bookmarks and fridge magnets. More people would then be interested in what they were doing.

Great. Do any of you have an ambition to set up your own business when you grow up and leave school? Put your hands up if you do.

Lisa Naidoo indicated agreement.

Carleen Smith indicated agreement.

Only two of you? Would you not like to run your own business, Jack?

I would.

Before you took part in the enterprise programme, did you know anything about business? Had anyone spoken to you about enterprise?

No.

Do anyone's mums and dads run businesses?

Carleen Smith indicated agreement.

Are you the bookkeeper?

My dad is an artist. He sells paintings, does murals in hospitals and paints portraits and landscapes.

Does he make a profit?

Yes.

Good.

Of those who did not put their hands up, how many have an idea of what they want to do when they grow up?

Do not become an MSP—there is nae money in that.

However, you can build a better world.

I would like to go into medicine.

Would you now think of setting up a business in a way that you did not before you took part in the programme? Some of you are nodding. Paul Moran was nodding. What do you think?

I had never thought of running a business before, but when Mrs Maclean told us about the business enterprise programme I thought that I might try to run a business when I was older.

Lisa, what would put you off running a business?

Nothing would put me off running a business.

You do not know that. I am frightened of this girl.

Running a business would be great fun and would be something new to do. It would be a challenge.

Thank you for your presentations, which were really interesting. The enthusiasm of the group has shone through. Do you have suggestions to make to people who are operating businesses in other walks of life, outside the Scottish Parliament? Perhaps Carleen Smith has a suggestion. Most people working in business would be a bit scared of you, as the bookkeeper. What do you think? Have you seen businesses that you think you could improve and make a better go of?

I do not know.

I have a question for Sarah Hall. I enjoyed your presentation, which was fantastic. Am I right in thinking that there are a number of different enterprise programmes in schools—for example, businessdynamics and entrepreneurial Scotland?

There is also Young Enterprise Scotland.

Can you describe the support network that exists to enable young people to develop their enterprise skills.

You are right to say that there are many enterprise products on the market. I stress the fact that the schools enterprise programme is a programme, not a product. The main point is that we have the resource of the seconded teachers—the 36 support officers. Jean Shields is an enterprise education support officer who works with St Helen's Primary School. When an EESO goes into a school, they may find that a great deal of enterprise education is being provided, although the school is not aware of it. The EESO will suggest tweaking those projects so that they become enterprise projects.

In the first year, we focused mainly on primary schools, although the programme is for the five to 14 curriculum. The two principal products that we used were enterprising infants and go for enterprise, largely because they were in the primaries already. We are not reinventing the wheel. The schools enterprise programme will clearly identify good practice throughout the country—if something good is happening in Grampian or the Highlands, for example, we will roll it out. We also hold training events for all the EESOs throughout the country; one such event was held in Troon.

We found that there was a gap in secondary 1 and secondary 2. We have written new materials, called "up for enterprise". Most of the products, such as businessdynamics and young enterprise, focus on the upper school—they are mainly for S3 upwards. However, I repeat that we are a programme, not a product.

The fact that you have designed a new product for S1 and S2 is interesting. I read that if one asks young people in primary school if they want to run a business, a huge number say yes, but if one asks secondary school pupils the same question, they all say no. Something happens between primary and secondary school.

It depends on the level at which the question is asked. What we do in primary schools we will now take into secondary schools. The products will be launched in June, but they will be readily available in the market from March. It will be the job of the EESOs to deliver training to secondary teachers. Secondary schools are a completely different ball game from primary schools, given that there are disciplines such as French, mathematics and economics, so the products are written to be delivered within a discipline. Secondary kids in S5 and S6 do more enterprise education than is done by pupils in the lower school.

As all members have said, every one of you should be very proud of what you have done today and the way in which you have expressed yourselves. You are a credit to yourselves and to your families. You should keep as hard at it as you possibly can over the weeks and months ahead.

I ask you all to think back over what you have been doing in the last wee while. What is the most difficult thing that you have had to overcome? If you could do what you have been through on your projects again, what would you change? I ask Dionne Coyle to respond to those questions first.

I made a few mistakes last week when I started working on my speech. If I think back, I rushed it a little bit and I could have put a bit more into it.

A lot of us feel like that every week in Parliament—you are talking about our life's experience.

Speak for yourself.

The hardest thing was getting money from people to get started. I would not say that I would like to change anything, because I think that it has been a great success and we have done everything correctly. It has worked out better than we planned.

I would change the mistakes that I have made in the cards. I have mucked some of them up a wee bit. I would probably change that.

I should have said that if you are looking for a long-term, interest-free loan, Andrew Wilson is your man.

I will ask the teachers—including Mrs Quinn, the head teacher—a final question. You mentioned that this is not about enterprise in its narrow definition; it includes all the other skills and acumen that the kids develop as a result of the exercise. How does the current situation compare with four or five years ago, when kids of the same age did not experience enterprise education?

I see a tremendous difference, in that the children can work relatively unsupervised and manage themselves. The children form the teams, they decide who leads the teams and they recognise one another's strengths. It is also evident in the staff room—I am sure that members experience this in Parliament, too—that people recognise the leaders. Marie Maclean is a clear leader in enterprise education and she motivates the other staff to come along. She knows how to direct everyone else to the support that Jean Shields gives us through the careers department.

The children now have a lifelong skill: they have learned how to work as part of a team. That has broken down a lot of barriers as far as their abilities and social capabilities are concerned, from which the entire school has benefited.

One of the things that concerns me a wee bit about the future of enterprise education is that, currently, the classes can apply for a £50 loan, but I understand that that facility will come to a halt and that the money will no longer be available. Initially, the children wrote to me and asked me for a loan, so it was okay for me to write a cheque from the school fund. I have confidence in the children and I know that the money will come back. However, not all schools are able to do that. We may need to consider that matter carefully in the future.

The fact that five of the children who have left St Helen's to go to high school are running a business is testimony to the fact that lifelong learning starts at primary school. I am confident that at least three of those five children will carry their business into adulthood. None of those children's parents had businesses.

A generation of children have a goal that they are confident they can achieve. They go along to night classes and they phone Marie Maclean—I nearly described her as their old teacher—because they are confident that they can still contact her for support. The children are selling to businesses in the city—builders' merchants, architects and restaurants. Those high-profile businesses have such confidence in the children's products that they want to send their customers a Christmas card that has "Hand-painted by the children of St Helen's" stamped on the back—the stamp was also designed by the children. I am just proud.

I agree with everything that Mrs Quinn has said. Five years down the line, something else will stimulate the children to learn. Ten or 15 years ago, we got computers. When Mrs Quinn came to the school seven and a half years ago, schools did not yet have access to the internet. We had a needs discussion during which I asked whether we could get access to the internet in the school. When Mrs Quinn asked me what the internet was, I said, "Just trust me—it's wonderful." We had access to the internet in school before anybody else, and we used it to advance the children's learning. Five years down the line, we are seriously taking on board enterprise education. A further five years down the line, somebody will come up with something else to stimulate learning for children. That is not to say that, five years ago, children lost out on enterprise education. I hope that the high schools will pick it up for them.

When we meet people such as Jean Shields, who tells us, "Try enterprise—it's wonderful", we think, "Oh God—not more work." Then she sold the idea to us and we started work with our children and we found that enterprise education really is wonderful.

I am probably the granny of enterprise—I was doing enterprise in primary 7 10 or 12 years ago and it was fantastic. However, given all the new subjects that came into the curriculum, enterprise started to die. I remember saying at a meeting at Jordanhill that something would have to be done about the situation. At one time, I was allowed 10 weeks for enterprise education in primary 7. Then I was told that I would have to cut down to six weeks and then to four weeks. We cannot do justice to an enterprise project in four weeks and I was getting really frustrated. Then the schools enterprise programme came in, and it has brought enterprise education back into its own again. I can now go back into schools and say, "I have done it, you can do it and the support is there for you."

We will need to watch out that enterprise in schools does not die again. There was nobody more enthusiastic than I was 10 or 12 years ago, because I could see the benefits when I worked with the kids. However, because so much was being packed into the curriculum, teachers were not being allowed time for enterprise education. Now we can work out where we can use enterprise in the five to 14 curriculum. That, as much as training teachers, is what I feel my job is about. Enterprise is not an extra—we can get it into the curriculum—but if the schools enterprise programme finishes in 2004, we must watch that enterprise education does not die off again, given that it started to do so before.

We will move on to some very good news on that front later in the session.

I am interested in what the staff around you think about the divide between development and attitude. Teachers can attend to resource matters—paper, documents and the like—whereas we are getting quite strong evidence of a change in attitude among youngsters. Is there a core script that can be distilled down for teachers—almost a foreign exchange for enterprise education? Are there key points that you want to get across or should one adapt the process as one goes along, according to individual children?

I think that that could be death by a thousand documents. I do not want enterprise education to be delivered separately in the classroom. At present, we are delivering enterprise education in the right way. We integrate it in the five to 14 curriculum, the teachers attend the training provided by Jean Shields's department and cascade that training down to other staff in the school. Teachers and head teachers can become overloaded by other documents that can fragment the curriculum too much. That would make enterprise education look as though it sat on an island, but it is integrated into language, maths and everything else we do in the school.

It is fair to say that every party around the table is impressed with and enthusiastic about the schools enterprise programme. We will highlight to the minister some of the points you mentioned—such as the availability of small loans for the schools—to ensure that such small hiccups are not allowed to stand in the way of a very successful programme.

I thank you all very much indeed. I am sure that after the elections on 1 May, our successor committee will want to continue to pursue the matter and ensure that the schools enterprise programme gets all the support from the Parliament and the Executive that it so richly deserves.

I know that you would like to stay for the next evidence-taking session, so I will suspend the meeting for two minutes to give you time to get up into the gallery and to give the new witnesses time to take their places. I thank the witnesses from St Helen's Primary School in Cumbernauld very much.

Meeting suspended.

On resuming—