Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee, 08 Oct 2002

Meeting date: Tuesday, October 8, 2002

Official Report 266KB pdf

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Tourism Inquiry

Item 3 concerns our inquiry into tourism—in particular the case study visit to Copenhagen and Malmö that Tavish Scott and I undertook recently. Tavish Scott and I made notes on the visit, with the able assistance of Judith Evans, who kept Tavish and me on the straight and narrow. She prevented us from coming to grief and attended meticulously to our every requirement. I would like to record our thanks to Judith for her welcome help.

One of the reasons for the selection of Denmark as a case study destination was its emergence as a good practice model in relation to tourism. We had several meetings. We met the British Tourist Authority, the Danish Tourist Board, Wonderful Copenhagen—the name for the area tourist board for the city of Copenhagen—and HORESTA, which is the tourism industry representative body. It was interesting to encounter HORESTA, because I do not think that there is a comparable composite body in Scotland.

We took an exciting trip on a train over a bridge to Sweden, which enabled us to meet the Malmö tourist board and the director of a Danish academic research centre on tourism, who works between Denmark and Sweden.

Although we will provide a fuller report of the case study, which we intend to put on the website to allow people to get information, I would like to pull out the main points that Tavish and I identified. In relation to Scotland, the position was far from negative or pessimistic. Scotland is perceived as having a high recognition factor. In other words, when people in Denmark who are considering a holiday hear mention of Scotland, they have no difficulty conceiving a positive impression of what the country is about.

However, that positive outlook was qualified slightly by a concern about the accessibility of packages to overseas tourists. In relation to off-the-shelf packages—packages for golf tourists, for example—there seems to be a gap in the product line. There is a gap between the image that people have, which is the image that we want them to have, and the existence of a product that they can procure to enjoy the experience.

The fact that VisitScotland has no staff in Denmark—all overseas work is undertaken by the BTA—is a positive aspect. That was expanded on when the BTA gave evidence at our committee meeting in Inverness. The opportunity exists for a highly constructive partnership between the BTA and VisitScotland. It was said that VisitScotland could piggyback on the BTA's presence to considerable effect. There might even be the opportunity for a roving presence, to represent Scotland in large areas such as Scandinavia.

A comment was made about the quality of accommodation and service. Although it would be wrong to depict the comment as totally negative, it raised a slight concern. The fact that Scotland is seen as a high-cost destination rather than as a cheap place to holiday means that people have certain expectations about what they will find when they come to Scotland. It was suggested that the quality of accommodation and service did not quite match people's expectations. In defence of the tourism industry, I should point out that other people were quick to say that they had visited Scotland and had had positive experiences of accommodation and service.

On the structures and functions of tourism in Denmark, we were struck by the strong strategic drive for the tourism industry, which is partly the result of Government focus. As other economic activities have been challenged and, in some cases, changed as heavy industry has declined, Denmark and Sweden have recognised the need to concentrate on tourism as a significant contributor to their economies.

We were very impressed by three things that really shone out. The first was dynamism, the second was knowledge, and the third was professionalism. There was a distinct buzz about what was being done by the people whom we met, regardless of the strand of the industry they represented. There was a sense of engagement with all sectors and no confusion about who was operating in what role or who was trying to achieve what. The industry seemed to be significant as a driver of the whole process, and the influence of the industry at a national level is marked. The tourism industry representative body, HORESTA, embraces the whole spectrum of activities in which the industry is interested.

The focus at a national level is very much on larger businesses and the strategic players, such as Scandinavian Airlines. The tourism industry is totally engaged with the airline and everybody works together to determine how they can bring more people to Denmark. We were surprised to hear that training and development is an issue, as the product in Denmark is of a high quality. However, the industry is concerned that training and development could be disregarded, and there is an active campaign afoot to ensure that training is recognised and that the significance of training to maintaining its place in the market and developing that market is not lost sight of.

The public agencies seek to strike a balance between innovation and sustained industry ownership. That is not always an easy balance to maintain, but it seems to be essential for success. Another interesting fact is that significant sums have been invested in infrastructure. From the moment we arrived in Denmark, the evidence of that was apparent to the three of us. There are links from the airport to Copenhagen and to the Øresund bridge, which links Denmark and Sweden, with a journey time of half an hour. A metro development has also been proposed in Copenhagen. Investment in those infrastructures has been made and will have a direct relevance to the enlargement and development of the tourism industry.

An interesting synergy has developed in the industry in Denmark. Copenhagen has enjoyed spectacular success as one of the top conference destinations and Malmö, in Sweden, is trying to develop that business as well. Instead of competing with each other, the two countries have got together and work in partnership. We were struck by the demonstrable effect of that partnership.

That kind of collaboration extends beyond Copenhagen and Malmö; the Scandinavian countries are marketing jointly on an international basis, especially in the far east and the US. We posed the question whether there was the potential for Scotland to market in collaboration with some of the countries that we regard as competitors. Perhaps we could start to engage with them as potential allies in creating a big brand for the type of destinations that Scotland and Ireland, for example, are.

There are challenges, as in e-tourism, for example. Interestingly, Denmark is facing the same difficulties as we have encountered. The Danish have used the Scottish web portal as a benchmark in developing their own portal. So, praise where praise is due. Nonetheless, the approach that is taken by Denmark seems to differ from the Scottish approach. Danish tourism businesses have their own online booking facility, which is hosted by the industry representative body server, for which they pay an annual fee. The regional tourism agencies operate that service free for small businesses, such as farm-based bed and breakfasts. When there is no commission to pay, businesses seem much happier to sign up to that—for obvious reasons.

It was thought in Denmark that such an approach would help sustain small, traditional businesses, such as inns, which are under threat from other commercial pressures.

Co-financing with airlines is, in the context of a rapid increase in low-cost flights, a key part of the strategy for Denmark. There is a telling message for Scotland in that. Having a single national airline helps Denmark in that respect.

The approach to marketing countries is changing. Denmark has quite consciously embarked on marketing a branding strategy, rather than promoting individual things, and is trying to make something of an emotional impact on consumers. It uses that to focus on particular areas of tourism and encourage visitors.

All in all, it was an enjoyable and positive visit. There was a lot to learn and there are a lot of useful examples in the Danish experience. We will post a full report on the website, but the factors that I have outlined are, I think, the significant ones as far as distinguishing what happens in Denmark and what happens in Scotland is concerned.

Tavish Scott cannot be here today, but if anyone has any questions about the visit, I will be happy to deal with them.

I was pleased to hear what you said, convener, about the BTA presence. I hope that your report will provide some information on what is available from the authority. I firmly subscribe to the notion that two and two can equal five. It would be interesting to know what market knowledge the BTA has. Such information offers a huge resource for VisitScotland and we should seek to tap into that as best we can.

You mentioned an interesting point about the emerging city region that is Copenhagen-Malmö. I wonder whether we should consider getting a piece of work done on the city region as a driver of tourism activity. That could feed in on a number of levels. For example, it could feed into any work that we do on area tourist boards. If we take the predominance of Glasgow and Edinburgh for arrivals in Scotland, it is clear that there is something going on in those two cities. There are obvious links too between the west of Scotland and Ireland, which might usefully be explored. Anyone who goes to Ikea in Glasgow will notice the number of Ulsterbus coaches there.

Although they may not know exactly what the greater Glasgow and the Clyde valley area is, tourists are more likely to have an idea of what the west of Scotland is, just as they have an idea of what the north of Scotland, Edinburgh and the Lothians and the kingdom of Fife are. We perhaps need to fit in a piece of work on the significance of the city region. I believe that the city region will be the economic driver of this century, if it is not already.

You mentioned the gap in the market for packages. I hope that we will go no further than simply reflect on that position. My strong view is that although issues around infrastructure and help in relation to skills and training and to the promotion of Scotland as a place and Scotland as a brand are all important, innovation in the tourism product must be driven by the industry. We should not set off on a prescriptive tour and focus on the kinds of packages that we as a bunch of parliamentarians would like imposed.

Those are well-made points, Brian. The lady in charge of the BTA office in Copenhagen, which we visited, not only has fluent English—which was a standard during our visit—but a personal knowledge of Scotland, which impressed me. She has been to Scotland on a number of occasions and is knowledgeable about Scotland. It struck me that the quality of information that she can give inquirers about Scotland will be well informed.

I think that the BTA demonstrated that it can work very effectively for Scotland. As I said, I think that VisitScotland is receptive to that. The potential for a very sound partnership is being developed in Copenhagen.

It may be that we should investigate a case study on the city region aspect. I do not know what the budget or time scale for that would be, or whether the clerk has any comments to make.

I might be able to help. Quite a lot of work on that topic is already under way at Scottish universities. In particular, the University of Glasgow has a project on the Øresund region. It may be possible to ask for evidence in the form of a paper.

Substantial work on that subject has also been done by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, which organised a conference on it in Glasgow last year. A literature search could be done.

Does the committee agree that we ask the clerk to research what is currently available? It is clear that material is around. Interestingly and quite by chance, we met two representatives from the University of Glasgow on the train coming back from Sweden.

This is where you declare your interest as a member of the court of the University of Strathclyde, convener.

It would be helpful if the clerk could investigate those matters further and see what information can be provided to the committee. I entirely agree with Brian Fitzpatrick that it is not our job—as a committee or as parliamentarians—to start second-guessing the market. We have to leave that task with the industry.

When Alex Neil and I did the e-tourism case study, Eddie Friel from the Greater Glasgow and Clyde Valley Tourist Board gave us quite an exposition on the city region. I am not sure whether he has submitted that formally as evidence.

He has.

He certainly sent me—and I think he sent other people—copies of a lecture that he gave on that topic. There is a lot of material out there.

Are there any other questions?

Is there any more information on how the Danes support their airline industry and on the co-financing deals? It would be interesting to know how they balance the support they give various airlines with the desire not to give favoured status to one or to contradict competitive status.

I suggest that I ask the clerk to make further inquiries about that, via the Danish authorities. I do not have specific information on it.

Okay.

If there are no further questions, we will move on. We will now take evidence from two witnesses. I see that the body of witnesses has diminished into one. On behalf of the committee I welcome Denise Drummond, director of Tourism People. We thank you for coming to see us. We are happy to have you before us so that we can take evidence. Would you like to make a brief preliminary statement or would you just like the committee to ask questions?

I would be delighted just to answer questions.

That is very accommodating, given the constraints on time that we are confronting this morning. Without further ado, who would like to ask a question?

I have just come back from Paris. I was struck there, as one often is in other parts of Europe, by the fact that the people who are engaged in the industry—waiting staff and others in hotels and restaurants and so on—are mature individuals, whereas in Scotland and in the UK that is generally not the case. Here, they tend to be young people, who tend to move on, people who are working on a part-time basis and, in the case of Edinburgh, a lot of foreign students. Clearly, working in the industry is not seen as a career and people's participation is not long term. How do we turn that round?

The issue is cultural. In Scotland, service is not seen as a career or a proper job. Service and servility tend to get mixed up. We must go back to primary education and ensure that youngsters are aware that the service aspect of tourism can be a job and a career.

How would that work? The suggestion of doing the same job for 20 years might not appear attractive when compared to other careers.

The suggestion might not be to do the same job for 20 years. Someone who has been in the business for 20 years, even if they are only a waiter—although we must get away from that attitude—will have 20 years' experience of dealing with people. Such a person will probably be very good at what they do. We must get across the message that people skills and people management skills are worth acquiring.

Other than through primary schools, how can that aim be achieved?

It can be achieved by talking up the industry. Many of us who have been in the industry all our lives look back affectionately at exciting times working in kitchens with wacky chefs. We tend to look back with great nostalgia at how bad those times were. We must look forward a bit more. The bad old days are gone; there are some great operators who do good work and who train and develop their staff. Those are the operators with whom we ally ourselves.

The cost of staff is an issue. You say that people should be paid more, but how can we change the pay-price structures if, as we have heard, Scotland is already perceived as being expensive?

If one considers only profit and loss accounts, one will see that in most tourism businesses staffing is the biggest cost. If businesses consider staffing merely as a cost, they will try to drive down that cost. We must change that and convince operators to consider how to treat people as an investment rather than simply a cost. If the way things are going in Edinburgh is a guide, in future operators will have to pay staff more because of competition for skilled or unskilled staff. Perhaps the market will dictate that.

I am interested in the skills agenda. There are differences between young people's perception of tourism in Scotland and their perception of tourism outside Scotland. Page 4 of your submission mentions young people's perceptions and the philosophy of avoiding the industry and looking for a proper job. How are you working with organisations such as Careers Scotland and Future Skills Scotland to try to change those perceptions and to point out that there are good careers in the industry?

In recent discussions with the Scottish Qualifications Authority we found that one of the recommendations of its assessment committee is that there should be a compulsory unit on Scottish tourism for those who study hospitality or tourism. The unit would be on the economic impact of tourism and its importance to Scotland. If we can have that, younger people might realise that there is a career in tourism, rather than simply thinking that tourism is what they see on television about sunnier climes such as Ibiza.

That is positive. Would the industry accept and look favourably on that?

I see no reason for a negative reaction, because we are at least letting young people know that an industry exists. Even if they want to take their talents abroad for some time, we hope that they will return.

That is good. How do you link with your partner organisations? Does a good structure exist for discussing the identified skill shortages with Future Skills Scotland and Careers Scotland, to ensure that people know the options and the product?

My submission says that meetings with Careers Scotland and Future Skills Scotland are scheduled for the next couple of months before Christmas. We will get together, because we must work together. Many organisations are involved in skills in Scotland and it is important that we all sing from the same hymn sheet.

Is that working?

Yes. I believe that that can happen.

I will ask only one question. You will have heard of the experience in Denmark, where the industry is represented by a composite body that is called HORESTA. Would such an organisation commend itself to Scotland?

It probably would. Anybody who entered tourism in Scotland as a rookie would take a long time to get their head round all the organisations. If that amount of time is taken by someone who has chosen tourism as a career, one wonders how long a new operator would take. Anything that can pull organisations together should be pursued.

Three committee members want to ask questions. The clock is even more challenging than usual, for obvious reasons. If members kept their questions pretty pithy—I do not say that with a lisp—that would help.

I will be pithy but not couthie. What does your organisation do that was not done by Tourism Training Scotland? What has changed?

What we do that is different is develop the training that Tourism Training Scotland provided, such as the welcome host initiative and the Scotland's best initiative, which provided training for operators. We have built on that and are looking towards the management side of training, which Tourism Training Scotland did not deal with. We are building on and expanding Tourism Training Scotland's work.

The organisation's agenda changed, but nothing changed organisationally. Was the organisation merely rebranded?

No. The organisation became industry led and leaner. It has more voice from the industry than before.

That is terrific. What will be the difference between the work that you do and the sector skills council's work?

The sector skills council, which is being created, is London based. I expect that we will have the same relationship with the sector skills council as we had with the national training organisations that represented elements of tourism. That partnership will continue.

I am interested in and applaud your organisation's efforts to promote tourism as a first-choice career. At the outset of our inquiry, the committee's adviser gave us a report that said that such a thing as a tourism research consultant existed. I wish that someone had told me when I was taking my highers about such a job, instead of about lawyers or doctors.

What a loss to the legal profession that would have been.

What can be done to promote such career options among younger people and particularly among disadvantaged youngsters? Of all industries, tourism involves an entrepreneurial flair and an advocacy of one's business that can speak volumes in primary or secondary schools, especially to children who might not follow an academic career path, but who might be interested in knowing that they can start as a commis chef and end up running OKO. What can we do better? How can we raise our game more?

It all comes back to talking up the image and we have to get to the influencers. It is regrettable if a parent dies of shock at the thought of their child becoming a chef rather than going into one of the professions. All we can do is use the agencies and the partners with whom we work to ensure that we can pass on the message that there is a bright future. The greatest advantage of our business, which is also the greatest disadvantage, is that someone can enter it with no qualifications and come out at the top as a general manager on £70,000 a year.

It strikes me that the best evangelists are the people who are actually running the businesses. As part of an earlier, more general entrepreneurial effort, David Murray tried to get young entrepreneurs to go to schools, particularly in disadvantaged areas, to tell young people that they had the option of becoming entrepreneurs. Do you envisage doing anything like that?

Springboard Scotland does that on our behalf. We believe that it does a good job so there is no need for us to duplicate that work.

Do you co-fund that initiative?

Yes.

What is the relationship between your organisation, Springboard UK and the sector skills council? What is Springboard UK? Is it a Government agency?

Springboard UK is a charitable organisation that is owned by the industry and by a charity whose name I cannot recall at the moment. It has a mission to make hospitality a first-choice career. We have no relationship with it other than the fact that, as a co-ordinating body, we encourage and fund Springboard UK to do a job that is part of our remit.

Will the sector skills council develop a Scottish arm or will your organisation fulfil that role?

I understand that it is developing a Scottish arm.

I am still confused about your relationship to that body. Do you play a similar role to the sector skills council?

Yes, we do, but Tourism People works exclusively in Scotland whereas the Sector Skills Development Agency works throughout the UK.

Would you like to make any further points?

No. I am delighted to have been here. If members wish to write to me with further questions, I will be happy to answer them.

Could you keep us up to date with developments in relation to the SQA?

Yes, I will do that through the clerk.

Thanks for coming. I am sorry that the committee was sparsely attended. However, your information was helpful.

I welcome Marc Robertson, who is from the Hospitality Training Foundation, and Geoff Fenlon. I know that Mr Robertson is the HTF's manager for Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, but I seem to have mislaid the note about Mr Fenlon.

Geoff Fenlon is here as a member of the board of the Travel, Tourism Services and Events National Training Organisation. He is also part of the employer consortium that is putting together the bid for the new sector skills council.

He sounds like a very impressive addition to the panel of witnesses.

We are very grateful to you for agreeing to give evidence to the committee. Normally we invite witnesses to make a few preliminary remarks, if they wish. However, given that you have made a written submission, you may want just to take questions from committee members.

I have something written down, but given that we are behind time I will make only a very quick statement.

That is very understanding of you.

The Hospitality Training Foundation is a wholly owned charitable trust. It is owned by the British Hospitality Association, the British Beer and Pub Association and the Restaurant Association. It has been in operation for the past 30 years throughout the United Kingdom. As well as being a former national training organisation, it owns a very successful UK-wide awarding body called the Hospitality Awarding Body and a consultancy and training division called Stonebow. In Scotland we have operated very successfully over the past few years with only three members of staff. We hope to expand our staff in due course.

The HTF ceased to be recognised as a national training organisation in March this year, when the Government changed its priorities by creating skills councils and the Sector Skills Development Agency. It is not my intention to say much about the SSCs. Geoff Fenlon, who is part of the employer consortium, will do that.

I am here as a representative of employers. I am employed by the Edinburgh International Conference Centre and I am a director of the Travel, Tourism Services and Events National Training Organisation. Like the HTF, TTENTO was in effect disbanded in March this year. However, it continues to operate until the new sector skills councils are set up.

I sit on the employer consortium that is putting together the bid for the new sector skills council that will cover hospitality, leisure, travel and tourism. The SSDA, which the Government created to set up sector skills councils, has given us approval to move forward to the development phase of the new sector skills council. We anticipate that the council will come into operation in March 2003.

A great deal of discussion must take place during the development phase. We want to discuss how best to address skills issues without reinventing the wheel. We will set up a Scottish arm, just as we will set up arms in Wales, Northern Ireland and the regions of England.

There are several key differences between the new sector skills council and the national training organisations that Marc Robertson and I previously represented. The key difference is very much in line with the committee's Copenhagen experience. This is an employer-led and employer-driven initiative. The NTOs—both the HTF and TTENTO—were very successful in securing investment from the industry to move things forward. However, there was duplication and a lack of efficiency—different things happened in different parts of the UK. How we address problems on the ground varies from region to region and from area to area, but basically we face the same problems.

The SSC for hospitality, leisure and tourism will act as a clearing house. It will provide leadership and pull together for the first time tourism and the skills and developments that it requires. We will seek the best way of delivering those skills and developments, either through existing structures or by introducing new structures. I ask the committee to urge the Executive to support the new SSC. The Executive should support the SSC not only at a strategic level—the council will be set up by Westminster—but at a local level. The committee should encourage the Executive to assist us in providing delivery mechanisms and, more important, to participate in discussion about what is needed.

From your evidence, I am not at all clear why we need a sector skills council with a clear Scottish arm and Tourism People, both of which appear to be doing precisely the same thing, albeit that you are employer or industry led.

I have responsibility for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, as well as some additional responsibilities in England. The issues that the industry faces are UK-wide. One of the interesting aspects of my job is the mechanics of dealing with issues across the devolved nations. The SSC will bring a UK-wide perspective to the issues and, as it will operate in a devolved context, it will be able to engage locally.

It is the Hospitality Training Foundation's aspiration to work closely with our partners, including Tourism People, to ensure that that happens. The sector skills council will have a number of products, including modern apprenticeships and vocational qualifications, which are offered by the NTOs at present. It will also have a remit to undertake labour market intelligence and skills foresight work alongside the work of a sector skills council in Scotland. The modern apprenticeship framework for Scotland, which I have just finished writing, is an example of that aspect of its work.

What will you be doing that Tourism People is not doing or cannot do? In other words, what is Tourism People doing that you cannot do?

Tourism People has a broad remit whereas we will focus on the particular areas of vocational qualifications, vocational delivery, labour market intelligence and skills foresight work. We will engage with people on the ground to ensure that those products make a difference in the marketplace.

Tourism People is doing that as well.

Although there are key differences, we should make no mistake that there will be large areas of overlap between the SSC, which has been set up by Westminster, and Tourism People, which has been set up by the Scottish Executive. In the period up until the SSC comes into operation, we need to decide what is best kept at UK level and what should be devolved.

For example, internet and information technology training is a UK-wide activity. However, as a result of the activities of bodies such as Scottish Enterprise, Scotland is further ahead in elements of that training than the regions in England and Wales, which means that some of the delivery and focus needs to be shifted in Scotland. That is where bodies such as Tourism People, with their specific remits, come into play.

As an employer, I have been working closely with Tourism People on bigthistle.com in order to push out industry recruitment and change other aspects of our business. That activity is particular to Scotland and to the needs of my own company. I have also been heavily involved in the Scottish tourism excellence programme. Scotland has some world-class venues that are excellent at training and development. Let us use those venues.

Tourism People provides a focus for the hospitality sector in Scotland. It enables us to identify the world-class venues and to put the people who want to be better managers where they can gain real experience. It is not possible to do that throughout the whole of the UK, but the size of the country makes it easy to do in Scotland.

The SSC will enable a partnership between Scottish Enterprise, Highlands and Islands Enterprise, the training agencies, colleges and Tourism People. Over the next few months, we will determine the best way of delivering that.

Are you open-minded about that being delivered in Scotland by Tourism People on behalf of the UK-wide sector skills council or do you need another body to act as a Scottish arm?

We do not want to reinvent the wheel. Discussions are going on between the SSC and its potential partners. I am the chair of the sub-group that is discussing partnership arrangements in our sector. We kicked off that process in November. We want to do whatever the industry thinks works best, but we are doing so by looking at things through the eye of our customers. The key element for us is to examine what our customers are asking for today, tomorrow and in the future. We can then work on developing the skills that we need. We are totally open-minded about that.

I welcome John Farquhar Munro, who has just joined us. He is the substitute member for Tavish Scott. I thank him for attending.

First, what do customers say is required? Secondly—on an issue that we have discussed generally—at the moment, provided that someone has the money, there is no barrier to their entry to the industry; they do not have to be any good at dealing with people, be able to cook or serve food, or whatever. How can that be combined with what you are doing, when anybody can just turn up and do it?

That is an issue that we cannot get away from. Our business is a people business and, as Denise Drummond said, the people are the biggest resource and the way in which they develop is key. That attitude has to start in the schools; Denise alluded to that, and we support it totally. The chairman of Springboard is part of the steering committee of the sector skills council. We will see how we would work within schools—that is still to be done by Springboard. The work of the steering committee has been hugely successful, but a lot more work needs to be done. We must change people's attitude. That is the key and that is what our customers tell us.

Our customers tell me that we are doing a fabulous job at the Edinburgh International Conference Centre. We undertake comparisons with other conference centres and we have found that there are two differences between the EICC and other conference centres: one is the attitude of our staff; the other is our professionalism. Those two things are lacking in some areas of Scotland and the UK and that needs to be addressed.

The industry is also saying that the qualifications for which financial support is offered—predominantly modern apprenticeships and vocational qualifications—need to be extended. Modern apprenticeships and vocational qualifications are great qualifications, but they are not the answer to every training need. The one-size-fits-all approach needs to be considered; other qualifications should perhaps be offered.

You talked about there being no barriers to entry to the industry. The current debate in the industry regarding the licence to practice concerns whether that is desirable for the industry. If it is desirable, we must consider how such a licence might be constructed and what might be the requirements for a licence to practice. For example, should we licence places or people? That debate needs to take place, and it is going on at the moment in scotexchange.net and the industry.

Are you saying that, although modern apprenticeships are good, a wider range of qualifications is needed, or that the current flexibility needs greater support?

We could do more to increase flexibility in modern apprenticeships. The week after next, I will have a meeting with the Scottish Executive to discuss how we might do that, and hospitality will be one of the pilot areas in which we will explore that possibility.

There is a case for core skills' being delivered outwith a modern apprenticeship framework, in addition to their being level 1 or level 2 Scottish vocational qualifications. Those are issues that the industry might want to consider in future. Core skills are especially welcome in our industry because our work force has rather a low level of academic attainment. Core skills must be welcomed as a route for improving the situation.

Entry qualifications that are not SVQ-based—for example, food hygiene certificates, customer care courses and health and safety courses—could also be introduced, so that people who are getting a taster of the industry will go through three short courses to give them some basic skills. They can then perhaps progress to a modern apprenticeship or a level 2 SVQ.

Is the barrier to increasing the training and skill level of the work force in Scotland in the hospitality sector an attitudinal one, or is the barrier the range of qualifications and the support that is available from Government?

It is a combination of both. Denise Drummond is right to say that there is an attitudinal problem. My parents were horrified when I decided to go into the hospitality industry—they thought that I was making a duff choice. To a degree, that hurdle will always exist.

The Government-assisted suite of qualifications has limitations. For example, we must consider our approach to management education, particularly for small businesses, and the funding mechanisms that might support that work. At present, we offer people £5,000 to do a modern apprenticeship, but the financial support might not exist to help people who run small bed and breakfasts to develop themselves and their businesses. How can we engage with and support those businesses? The sum of £5,000 may not sound like much, but it is a lot to small operators—such an amount is a big investment for them to make. Perhaps they could be given some financial assistance to improve their businesses, which would improve the industry at the same time.

We have already started to make our way down that route. In my industry, we have set up an SVQ level 3 on the events side, but that is not sufficient for what we were looking for as far as management education is concerned. We have had an opportunity through the NTO, which we will continue through the SSC, to move that up to level 4. Use of the internet is key to deploying that qualification—that is where support is needed. We have used European funding to enable people to work from home to develop knowledge that they can apply to their work. That is the future for Scotland and we must support it.

Over the past four years, the HTF has in partnership with Thurso College been developing modern apprenticeships that are being delivered through the internet using learning support and assessment materials. What amazes me about the project is not that it has been successful—we always hoped that it would be—but that the kids get so much out of it, particularly 16 and 17-year-olds. They have greatly enjoyed their learning experience—much more so than those whom we evaluated who have undertaken modern apprenticeships through traditional mechanisms.

Tools such as information technology can revolutionise the way in which we deliver training, not only at skill level—levels 1 and 2—but at management level. Perhaps management development courses could be made freely available over the internet, so that people can start to develop their own skills and businesses.

I am intrigued by the fact that those young people enjoyed the course. Why was that, and what was so special about the course?

They enjoyed the course because it was new and innovative and because we were doing things that, at that stage, had perhaps not been done before. For example, instead of watching someone truss a chicken, they watched a video that showed them how to do that. The course had lots of interactive elements, looked lively and colourful and was user-friendly. The students in our sample came from throughout the north of Scotland, so there was a good geographic spread. They worked closely together in teams, using IT as the classroom, if you like. Having started the project in one college, we now run it in five colleges. We hope that the project will continue and that it will start to make more of a difference in each of those colleges.

Does John Farqhuar Munro wish to ask any questions?

No.

In that case, I thank the witnesses for their evidence and for accommodating the time constraints that we faced. We have managed to lurch back on to our timetable.