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Chamber and committees

Enterprise and Culture Committee, 05 Oct 2004

Meeting date: Tuesday, October 5, 2004


Contents


Arts in the Community Inquiry

The Convener:

I welcome three witnesses from the Scottish Arts Council: Jim Tough, deputy director; Caroline Docherty, head of planning and area development; and Maggie Maxwell, visual arts officer. I invite the witnesses to make opening remarks, after which I will open the meeting to questions.

Jim Tough (Scottish Arts Council):

Thank you. We are delighted to be here and we welcome the committee's interest in arts in the community, which is a valuable area of work that we have advocated for a long time. The Scottish Arts Council funds such work and all three of us have worked in the area at various points in the past. Arts in the community are not on the margins of our thinking or activity and in Scotland we have much to be proud of, because our activity in the area often has an international reputation.

The Scottish Arts Council has three corporate aims: to increase participation in the arts; to support artists; and to place creativity at the heart of learning. There is interplay between all three aims in relation to arts in the community.

There are three dimensions to arts in the community. The first dimension is people's right to have access to quality cultural experiences, which might be targeted to overcome particular geographical, social or economic barriers. For example, we will introduce our getting there programme to many arts organisations, to help such organisations to overcome attitudinal and physical barriers to access to the arts by disabled people.

The second dimension is the power of the arts to have benefits for the individual and the community, which is sometimes described as the instrumental value of the arts. For example, we have encouraged Greater Glasgow NHS Board to work with the Dance House. If I may do a bit of audience development, let me say that the play "A madman sings to the moon" is being performed this evening at the Royal Lyceum Theatre as part of our partnership with the Scottish Executive Health Department. If members are not busy this evening, I recommend that they go along.

The third dimension is about having a good time—I hope that we can all retain our enthusiasm for arts and culture. We often provide assistance to the voluntary sector at strategic level, by supporting umbrella organisations that support community amateur endeavour, such as the Scottish Traditions of Dance Trust.

The arts in the community theme operates in those three key areas, but not just in relation to targeted themes or schemes. Much of the public money that is channelled through the Scottish Arts Council goes to the big arts organisations and we encourage those organisations to recognise their responsibility to the community and to make it part of the fabric of their activity. Organisations such as the Lemon Tree in Aberdeen or the Scottish Chamber Orchestra, which has touring and educational programmes, represent good examples of that approach.

Three issues require attention. First, much work is enthusiastically pursued by the community sector through time-limited lottery funding, so there is a conundrum about how we can sustain such good work in the longer term. Secondly, it is important to recognise the value of artists and understand what they can bring to projects. My final point, which relates to the two previous points, is that we need to build commitment at the strategic level. For example, in planning projects such as community regeneration programmes, whether physically or more widely, we should consider the cultural life of the people whose lives we are trying to improve.

Thank you. That was helpful, as was the written evidence that you submitted. Do Maggie Maxwell and Caroline Docherty want to say anything at this stage?

Maggie Maxwell (Scottish Arts Council):

We are happy to take questions.

Mr Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD):

I am sure that you will have guessed that I would ask this question. I must remind members of my declaration of interests as a board member of Grey Coast Theatre Ltd.

Will you say a little about remoteness and distance in relation to delivery? I am a strong supporter of all that you do, but remoteness is of considerable interest in relation to arts in the community in parts of John Farquhar Munro's constituency, for example.

Jim Tough:

As a national organisation, we are conscious of our responsibilities to the entire nation. In that sense, projects and work in all parts of the country and all communities are important to us. In Caithness and Sutherland, we have been working proactively with the local authority to try to establish a sustainable arts programme that serves the community. Grey Coast Theatre is one of the partners in that and I believe that there are also capital projects. That is something that is dear to our hearts. Caroline Docherty, as head of area development, has led that work over the years.

Caroline Docherty (Scottish Arts Council):

One of our contributions in many parts of Scotland is to try to build capacity at different levels. A few years ago, Highland Council identified a gap in Caithness and Sutherland: there was no arts officer, no strategic plan and no set of priorities for the area. Lots of good work was going on, but there were sustainability issues and there was little support for the voluntary and volunteer-led sector. We were able to help in a three-way partnership with the enterprise company and the local authority to seed-fund dedicated arts officer posts in both Caithness and Sutherland. Those posts are now in their second year and provide valuable support to the arts in those areas.

Mr Stone:

I should mention that in the past I was on the board of the Highland festival. What approach do you take? Do you support the hub-and-spokes idea of arts delivery—which could work, with, for example, outreach from Eden Court Theatre, although the jury is slightly out on the Highland festival—or should one have an area-based string of pearls around the Highlands? I do not know the answer to that question. I am interested to hear your philosophy on it.

Jim Tough:

My philosophy is that I am wary of formulaic responses. The country is extremely varied and we must acknowledge the cultural nuances and economic differences in its different parts. We are looking at how we can encourage adjacent local authorities to work together, along with the national cultural partners. We are moving towards the view that some form of regional planning for culture and the arts would be a useful approach. Within that, it might be that the hub-and-spokes idea works. I am always taken by the notion that Eden Court Theatre's Christmas show attracts an audience from the primary school in Lochmaddy, which makes an overnight trip. People will travel for high-quality arts experiences.

Mr Stone:

That is interesting. I hope that this is not an unfair question, but do you think that, in trying to get the 32 authorities to co-ordinate more, we might have to parallel what the Executive is doing in other areas, not least tourism, and do something through legislation or by tweaking to encourage that co-ordination? At the moment, co-ordination does not necessarily come about unless there is good will from adjacent authorities—one thinks of Highland Council and Moray Council as an example.

Jim Tough:

We have found that if we have the human resources to engage closely with folk, we can work with the local authorities and other partners in a developmental way and plan things. Sometimes, encouragement is what is required. Legislation might reinforce that and encourage standards but, if we took a minimum-provision approach, there would be a fear that what we would get is the minimum. We should aspire to the best.

Christine May:

I vividly recall that, when Scottish Arts Council cash allocations were announced each year, opprobrium would be directed at the council from all sides, which, I presume, meant that it was getting the balance more or less right and pleasing nobody. In a discussion on Radio 4 last night, I heard a quotation from some economist with venom dripping from his pen on the attempts down south by the Department for Culture, Media and Sport to quantify the contribution to the economy of the arts in the broadest sense. His point was that, on that calculation, the arts make a greater input to the economy than manufacturing industry, but the calculation included advertising, which is where the venom really dripped.

I have three questions, two of which are interlinked. The first is on your goal of improving sustainability, which I link to enterprise in arts. By that, I do not mean business sponsorship; I mean the efficiency of boards and committees and their ability to see and set a strategic direction and to provide funding for that. What work do you do, perhaps in collaboration with others, to improve those skills? Secondly, VOCAL—the Voice of Chief Officers for Cultural, Community and Leisure Services in Scotland—has given evidence to us. What is your relationship with the folk on the ground who deliver community projects and work to develop local capacity? Finally, will you talk about the broader business aspect of creative industries, such as the importance of good design in business and of encouraging excellence in design and input into business?

Jim Tough:

I will try to say something on all those issues. On board development, we work with Arts & Business, which is an organisation that we revenue fund. It operates United Kingdom-wide, but we fund it, in part, to offer board development training. Organisations that lack marketing or finance skills can draw on the Arts & Business board bank to get board members to help them to achieve the full set of required skills. We examine closely the governance, financial probity and management skills of the core-funded organisations that we support and back that up by offering training in board development through Arts & Business. We want to continue to encourage the shift in culture through which the boards of arts organisations now have a responsibility for all that goes with governance.

Forgive me, but that answer relates to core-funded organisations, whereas community arts organisations tend to be non-core funded, although some get seed funding and so on. What work do you do with such organisations?

Jim Tough:

Two years ago, we had a capacity-building programme through which we offered money to community organisations, particularly those involved in arts and disability and promoting cultural diversity. We felt that such organisations were not getting a fair kick at the ball in receiving financial support because their capabilities were limited, so we offered them money to build their strengths. As we intended, some of those projects have gone from being community-project based into being core funded—Lung Ha's Theatre Company is an example of that. Caroline Docherty may want to talk about VOCAL, because she works directly with it.

Caroline Docherty:

I described earlier the work that we have done with local authorities to build capacity. We also have a local authority partnership scheme, which at present supports 11 local authorities in whose areas investment in the arts was low, both from the Scottish Arts Council and, in most cases, from the local authorities. The programme was designed for local authorities, on behalf of their communities, to identify what might change and what could be done better. The important aspect was that the scheme was designed from the local authority end. We provide up to £120,000 per project over three years, but one of the requirements is that the local authority must find partnership or match funding of 50 per cent to try to ensure sustainability. The scheme aims to ensure a longer-term commitment to the arts.

The results have been varied. For example, West Lothian Council chose to focus on the voluntary arts. Having received lottery money for its Howden park arts centre, it already had a physical hub where a lot of activity went on. However, the voluntary arts sector had identified capacity issues such as volunteer burn-out, so West Lothian Council was asked what it could do to help. West Lothian is now about halfway through its innovative programme, the results of which we await with interest.

We have regular meetings with local authority arts officers, who are the people on the front line. We meet them both one to one and in cluster groups, which bring together six or seven adjoining authorities. The cluster groups have a common geographical interest, but we did not prescribe that. For example, Moray Council chose to join Highland Council and that was absolutely fine. The authorities sit in whichever group is best for them. The clusters offer an opportunity for the local authority arts officers to share experiences and best practice and for us to exchange information with them so that we can identify where there are shared priorities and how we can make a difference together.

Jim Tough:

On the creative industries, we work in partnership because those are not the exclusive territory of the Scottish Arts Council. In partnership with Scottish Screen and the National Endowment for Science, Technology and the Arts, our new approach will allow us to support individual artists who hope to translate their creative idea into an enterprise or business idea. The new approach is provisionally called "Ideasmart" and it will be out soon at a venue near you.

Our submission to the Cultural Commission recommended the percentage for art scheme. That idea has been around a long time, but it would allow us to build design into the fabric of the environment at an early stage. We hope that the commission might pursue that idea and build on it.

Susan Deacon (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab):

Reading the Scottish Arts Council's enjoyable submission and listening to the evidence today have reinforced my view that our inquiry is very much an exercise in asking the "How?" question rather than the "What?" question. In other words, given the broad spectrum of agreement on what does and does not work, the big question is how we ensure that community arts are encouraged, supported, developed and funded as effectively as possible. For that reason, I want to ask a series of "How?" questions to get views and practical suggestions on some of these issues.

First, how can we ensure that the community arts receive greater recognition and are placed higher up the agenda? Obviously, our committee hopes to do that by dint of undertaking this inquiry, but both the Parliament and the Scottish Arts Council have an issue to face. Although big national bodies have some visibility and are, validly, the centre of some debate, it is much harder for the impact of anything that is community based—whether it be arts or anything else—to be recognised. How might we give greater recognition to arts in the community?

Secondly, how can we achieve greater joined-up thinking among agencies? The issue has been touched on to some extent, but do the witnesses have anything else to add? Given that the wider impact on health, well-being and so on that involvement in community arts can have is acknowledged, how do we get agencies and decision makers who are not necessarily charged with an arts responsibility to factor those wider benefits into their thinking and plan accordingly?

Thirdly, how effective are current evaluation and monitoring processes at examining qualitative outcomes? The committee has already spent some time thinking and talking about that issue informally. I for one am concerned that we have many evaluation processes that are highly quantitative in nature and that are very much about ticking boxes. The arts are not alone in that respect, but it is more difficult in the arts than in most other spheres to measure impact. How might evaluation and monitoring processes be improved in that regard?

My final question is a biggie—I am sure that you will come back to it in response to colleagues. Where should the strategic lead for building and encouraging more activity in arts in the community come from? There is a proliferation of cultural activity and discussion, as well as of bodies to consider culture. I note that you would like to carry out a feasibility study into an institute for community cultural development. How would you ensure that something like that added value rather than clutter? Where could and should that strategic push come from?

Sorry, I have just been criticised by a colleague for not leaving any subjects for anybody else. I am more than happy for you to pick up only the bits that you really want to.

Jim Tough:

I am happy to answer all those questions, if you have the time.

The fact that we are sitting here today, talking about this subject, is fantastic. The three of us come from a field in which such a discussion would have been unthinkable 15 years ago. We have achieved a lot; there has been a huge step forward.

You ended with a comment about the idea for an institute. There is a lot of great stuff going on out there, but it tends to be isolated and fragmented. That does not make the best use of the knowledge and experience of the folk who are doing that work. An institute would add value by virtue of building confidence collectively in the sector—there would be somebody sitting here representing the sector.

A small example is our support for Edinburgh's capital city partnership, which is an amalgamation of Edinburgh's social inclusion partnerships. It is considering the formation of something that could work throughout the city. The partnership created the Edinburgh arts and social inclusion forum.

Again, I am talking about building that collective confidence and collective voice. There is a need for continuing professional development so that the practitioners feel that what they are doing is valued and has professional status and that their training and development are treated seriously. Those are some ideas to do with recognition.

On being joined up, the Scottish Arts Council is considering the idea of a regional approach. Such an approach to cultural or arts planning could allow the involvement of the health boards and the enterprise companies, alongside the voluntary sector and national bodies such as the Arts Council. It is sometimes difficult to make those planning mechanisms work, so I suggest that that approach should be incentivised. Funding could be made available so that the bodies plan together and, equally important, have that plan translated through decisions that they have the resources to support. I will ask Maggie Maxwell to elaborate on our relationship with the health boards and health sector.

We share the concern that evaluation is difficult. Indeed, not only is it difficult, it is frankly alien or an irritation to many folk on the ground. People are enthusiastic to get on and do the work, but folk like me come along and say, "Well, actually, we need you to fill in this form to say whether the work has achieved its objectives." We have to encourage folk on the ground to see that doing that helps the big picture and helps to gain the recognition that we have spoken about.

Last week, I spoke at a conference on youth justice. The audience included teachers, social workers and youth workers. What was fascinating to me was that they were saying that the arts are one of the few diversionary or preventive activities that they can rely on to make a difference. As for evaluation, some of the work happens not in the arts dimension, but in social work and elsewhere. We need to recognise that across the board.

Finally, I will talk about strategic drive. Something that had national status and an international profile and that recognised the good practice that has developed in this country in the past 25 years would add value. There would be a locus for such a development to punch its weight politically.

Maggie Maxwell:

I will give two good examples of greater joined-up thinking by agencies. One is a partnership with the national programme for improving mental health and well-being. This week, we are advertising the post of arts and mental health development officer, which will be located in the Scottish Arts Council. That post will have a national remit. The officer will undertake a major research programme into the benefits of the arts to mental health and to recovery.

We are also working closely with Greater Glasgow NHS Board. We have targeted the west of Scotland and we are examining health priorities with the board. We are funding a development officer who will be located in the health board. They will work at a strategic level as an advocate for arts and health, make the case for revenue funding in the health board and start a network. Much is going on in the west of Scotland in arts and health and we want that to be joined up and developed strategically.

Mike Watson (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab):

I was interested that your submission highlighted three aspects of community art activity: increasing access, improving the quality of life and recreational and voluntary activity. You made the point that is perhaps self-evident but is nonetheless worth making that many arts projects serve one or more—if not all—of those purposes.

Despite my history in the subject, when I read your submission I was surprised at the spread of activities that are taking place in various parts of the country. I will highlight music and ask you a couple of questions about that. You highlight the Making Music Scotland and Fèisean nan Gàidheal projects, which both involve tuition. Making Music also provides administrative services and has an advocacy role for its members. To what extent is it the Scottish Arts Council's role to assist people—I was going to say "young people", but people of any age are included—to learn how to play a musical instrument or to learn about promoting music? How important is that in your work?

Jim Tough:

Both aspects are important. Making Music involves the voluntary and community sector. Fèisean nan Gàidheal is an exemplary organisation. It is involved in youth music, tuition and other Gaelic arts traditions. We return to the evaluation theme. We have just funded Fèisean nan Gàidheal to examine tracking some of the youngest people who were involved in its first classes about 20 years ago when the organisation started on Barra to where they are now. That would include those who have become professionals and who perform in venues here and abroad. We would like to track the trajectory of success as part of the evaluation answer. That is vital.

The committee will be aware of the youth music initiative under which the Executive has directed money through the Scottish Arts Council to improving the opportunities for young people to have experience of musical learning through schools—that is sometimes their first hands-on experience. That, too, is important.

The voluntary sector is vital. Many voluntary groups that are initially recreational have a genuine impact on folk's confidence in their learning in general and sometimes encourage them to go on to achieve professional status.

Mike Watson:

You talk about professional status. I see that the submission mentions the tune up scheme, which I had not realised existed. A month ago, I attended a concert in Dunfermline's Carnegie Hall at which Eddi Reader performed. She paid her dues to the Scottish Arts Council and made an announcement about the scheme.

Jim Tough:

Brilliant. We will pay her now.

Mike Watson:

That scheme involves halls in places that are off the beaten track, which benefits some very small places. Incidentally, Eddi Reader also said that she was tuning up for her performance in the Parliament on Saturday.

On access to the arts, you referred in your submission to the arts for all conference in 2002, which I remember. You said how effective it was and that it was oversubscribed. That conference was two and a half years ago: why has it not been repeated? It seemed to me that it would be worth while having such a conference every couple of years, say, because of the demand and because, as time goes by, community activity is progressing.

Jim Tough:

I agree. When putting together our submission, I was struck by the thought that it was time for another such conference. However, we have held similar themed events since then. For example, we had the hidden voices conference in Dundee earlier this year, which was based around the theme of cultural diversity, and we had a major international conference in Edinburgh around the theme of arts and disability. Those communities of interest have followed on well from the more general interests that the arts for all conference started with in the Gorbals two and a half years ago.

Mike Watson:

My final point has a couple of strands to do with local authorities. As you may know, we had a session last week at which a local authority and the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities were represented. We have received written submissions from only six local authorities, which I find disappointing. Nonetheless, you referred in your submission to the local authority partnerships. We have had evidence about the vast differences in local authorities' arts activity, or in their support for such activity. We are not simply talking about the islands versus the central belt. There are vast differences between Ayrshire and Lanarkshire authorities and between Aberdeen and Dundee.

Can you say a bit about the local partnerships? You said in your submission that you

"identified 11 local authorities which had the lowest investment in the arts"

and that you assist them with up to £120,000. Your monitoring showed that the support had an effect. However, that was in 2002. Has there been further development? Local authorities have an important role to play in the arts. They put a lot of money in—I am not suggesting that they do not—but it is patchy and some areas need more assistance.

Jim Tough:

Caroline Docherty led on that important programme.

Caroline Docherty:

The programme is still under way. We took three local authorities at a time because the relationship is not just about money, but about working with them. We will shortly commission the next evaluation, which is due later this year. We hope to have more results on more recent partnerships.

Jim Tough:

A local authority partnership came along to a council meeting last month and told us about the Lossie posse, which was a group of youngsters in Lossiemouth who had been causing a lot of vandalism at the local school. The partnership used mobile telephones to promote the fact that a dance artist and a video artist were going in to work with the youngsters. Since then, the partnership has apparently saved £16,000 in glazing works at the school.

Mike Watson:

We heard evidence on that two weeks ago that made quite an impression on us.

The second strand of my point is on something to which you refer in your submission and which we have heard about, which is creative links officers. You say in your submission that those posts

"will be extended to each of the 32 local authority education departments by 2007."

You say that the creative links officers are jointly funded, which suggests that all local authorities have gone along with you on that. Is that the case? Will they all participate? Perhaps they had other priorities, but some local authorities seemed reluctant to put money into that sort of activity. However, your submission suggests that you have made progress in that regard.

Jim Tough:

Yes, I think that we have. Our education department's work has been strong and has built on the relationships that it has formed with education authorities over the years. There are still a few links officer posts to complete, but it is just a question of rolling out the funds. I think that the problem for local authorities is that although we are offering funds up front, we are asking them to recognise the importance of the creative links officers in the long term by securing mainstream funding for the posts for three or four years down the line. For many local authorities, the issue is whether they are able to do that, but the spirit is certainly there in most local authorities.

Chris Ballance (South of Scotland) (Green):

I have three distinct questions, but if it is all right with you, I will put them together and you can decide how much weight to give each answer.

My first question is about training for artists who work in the community. A lot of training in the art forms is available to artists, but much less training is available for working in the arts in the community. Is that an issue that the institute for community cultural development would examine?

My second question is about evaluation. How do we get over the low profile and perceived lower quality of community arts? It seems to me that those stem from the basic assumption that the process—the quality of the experience—is more important than the final result in the community arts, which turns on its head the notions of the professional arts, in which the important factor is the quality of the result, rather than whether the actors enjoyed the rehearsals. What can we do to change that and improve the profile of community arts?

The other point about evaluation is that it is easy to look at global statistics on how the arts improve health and well-being, but it can be difficult to pinpoint that effect in one particular project. It is not easy to say that, for example, X number of people came off tranquilisers or reduced their dosage as a result of a certain project. As one of our first witnesses said, it is difficult to quantify the warmth of the smile on the face, but that is exactly what evaluation forms have to do. Would you care to comment on that?

Jim Tough:

We acknowledge that training for artists needs attention. The two sets of skills that are acquired in the training to be an artist and the training to apply artistic skill in a community setting are different, and there are good examples in which the sector has taken on that training role itself out of necessity. The most obvious example is Artlink Edinburgh, which works with a lot of visual artists in health settings and first offers them training to allow them to be able to do the work effectively. Project Ability in Glasgow is another example, and on the youth justice theme, there is an interesting organisation in England called Unit for the Arts and Offenders. Before its artists work with young folk—or anybody—in prison, they have to undergo some fairly in-depth training on prison culture and some of the issues with which they might be confronted.

Community arts training is something that the Scottish Arts Council should think about at the strategic level of advocating the need for it and that the colleges and the higher education organisations should also think about. It is important to look at the community arts in artists' training, but the idea that the institute might have a role in professionalising such work is also important.

Process versus product is a long-standing and important debate. The important thing is for individuals to decide when they start out as artists, arts administrators and participants what the work is about and to be up front about whether it is recreational, educational or about producing an interesting piece of art. We have to start out by deciding what we are trying to do and then define it in those terms.

The example that best illustrates the profiling issue that is involved is Theatre Workshop in Edinburgh. Critics have challenged the artistic quality of its work with its integrated company, but its most recent production, "The Threepenny Opera", was a milestone in challenging and overcoming that artistic critique. The deciding factor was that Theatre Workshop had enough money to put on a production that matched the production values of mainstream theatre. It was a case, not of the company being inhibited artistically by the fact that some of the actors had disabilities, but of its needing the level of funding that any mainstream production requires. There is a resource issue, and the more such productions that happen, the more we will move away from the sense that community-based or inclusive work is second best.

On the theme of evaluating the impact of the work, I hope that, through this kind of discussion, we can work towards having a bit more trust in practitioners who have seen the impact of this work over and over again. Yes, we need statistics, research and documentation but, as you say, how do you measure the value of the smile? There are many examples of folk out there who have seen that smile or that impact. To some extent, we need to move towards trusting that this is an important area of work—it is not exclusively about trust, but we need to have a bit of faith.

Susan Deacon:

Can I push you a wee bit further on that? What would that look like in terms of practical evaluation? I keep using the words evaluation and monitoring, but I do not know whether I am using the right words. Especially for funding decisions, in practical terms how could we move in the direction that you have just outlined? Personally, I would fully support that.

Jim Tough:

Again, I am trying to envisage how, when we sit around and make funding decisions, we ask, "Does this bring a smile to the face or does it change somebody's life?" The officers in the Arts Council start from the proposition that if they are comfortable that the organisation that is offering the project up is well organised and capable and that the artists who are involved are good artists, that will be one of the outcomes.

Maggie Maxwell:

The example that comes to mind is Hearts&Minds working on the elderflowers project with people with dementia. They record things. There is a marvellous video—a lot of evaluation is done through video—of people with profound disabilities and the impacts of working with the arts. In a recent project in Stirling, which involved Artlink Central, the reactions of the people to opera was a blink of the eye because they had such profound disabilities. That was moving enough. The artists who were involved were top-quality artists and it was a beautifully organised project. We funded the project because we had trust in the organisation.

Christine May:

I would like to take this back slightly further. In your initial remarks, you spoke about building commitment at a strategic level. I am curious to know how prescriptive you would want the Executive or the Parliament to be. Are you saying that, for example, the arts—in their broadest sense—should be built into all community planning partners' strategic plans, which might include a percentage for the arts, the recognition of art therapy in health, and work on antisocial behaviour and vandalism? Would you want that to be said explicitly? Picking up on Chris Ballance's question, would you want to see funding for activities that do not necessarily produce quality work but that produce very good therapeutic work? Should that come out of the arts budget or the health budget? Does it matter? Tell us how prescriptive you would like us to be.

Jim Tough:

I will ask Caroline Docherty to say a wee bit about that in the community planning context. It probably does not matter which budget the money comes from if we are getting the right impact in the right places for the right people. In some ways, we would like to encourage health boards, youth justice departments and social work departments to see the arts as something that contributes to those areas. The Arts Council can help them to find the right approaches, the right artists, if necessary, and the good practice.

It is not about the Arts Council laying claim to more public funding to do these things. We often get applications for lottery funding for things that look more like a health project than an arts project. We value that, but we then have the difficult task of striking a balance. That is a crazy situation to be in if we all agree that a project has an important impact. The prescriptive area, for me, would be in seeking to say, at the level of health and education strategies, "What are you doing that uses arts and culture to achieve your ends? We believe that they can." More formally that could be part of community planning.

Caroline Docherty:

We see community planning as an opportunity to be joined up at a strategic level. We have been running sessions with some of the other cultural bodies to see how it might work and how we might respond both individually and collectively.

On evaluation and the qualitative side of things I talked to somebody in Dundee only a couple of weeks ago about regeneration and frustration with measuring impacts. One of the opportunities that community planning or being more joined up could offer is the chance to share some of the impact evaluation and to move away from the idea of specific causality. We have funded in-depth research, which has been useful. We could go deeper and deeper, but there is a cost-benefit issue. In the complex areas of regeneration and social inclusion, often a combination of factors is involved. Perhaps we should waste less time trying to prove one thing and accept that a menu of activity is going on. We all see communities that have a sense of well-being and we know intuitively the combination of things that is making a difference. Perhaps we should put a little more money into doing and a little bit less into measuring.

Mike Watson:

My question is about community planning partnerships. You said in your submission that your arts and social inclusion work ended when most of the social inclusion partnerships came to an end last year and you put the money into something else. Community planning partnerships are supposed to follow on from social inclusion partnerships. Do you have plans to link up again once community planning partnerships are fully up and running? A lot of work that would have been started under your arts and social inclusion work could be usefully carried on if the funding was there.

Jim Tough:

Part of what we are doing is advocacy work for the role that we want arts and culture to play in community planning partnerships. We have reinvested funding for the social inclusion partnerships into residencies. The idea is that we will prioritise areas of particular need and have artists come and work in those communities in a range of settings, whether educational, rural or whatever. The social inclusion partnership areas and the community planning partnerships that have priority designation would be a particular focus for that.

I want to pursue that. In the same section of your submission you mention an increase of 5 per cent in participation rates. By whom is that participation? Why is it 5 per cent and what time period are we talking about?

Jim Tough:

That is the Scottish Executive's target for us as a body. That is our homework.

What is the baseline? From where do you start?

Jim Tough:

At the moment we are working on establishing a baseline through a research programme on access and participation.

How can you establish the need to increase participation by 5 per cent if you do not know the baseline?

Jim Tough:

The first survey that has come in has shown an increase of 5 per cent. Is that right?

Caroline Docherty:

No. We have two things going on. One is a 5 per cent increase by under-represented groups. The only way that we can establish that is by surveying the general public and the levels of participation among different under-represented groups. The other thing is the number of projects in social inclusion partnership areas and the number of partners involved.

Those kinds of things are easier to measure. What do you mean by participation?

Jim Tough:

It includes audiences. It is not exclusively about people coming and doing; it is about coming and seeing.

So if someone turns up to one event, they have participated.

Jim Tough:

Yes.

Chris, please make this the last question, because I am conscious of time.

My question follows on neatly from that. You talk about the 78 per cent of people who participate in arts events. What information do you have about the 22 per cent who never participate and why they do not participate?

Jim Tough:

One of the things that we have under way is called the audiences Scotland research initiative, a bit of which will involve considering the things that inhibit people from becoming involved. A lot of that work happens already but tends to be specific to an art form, a place or a venue. Research is done on what stops people from going along. Is it because it is not the kind of work that they want to see? It is not just about why they do not go but about whether they are being offered things that they want to go to. We are looking at how we can increase participation, including audiences. To answer that, we need to know what is stopping them from participating at the moment.

Your written and oral evidence has been extremely helpful. I thank the three of you for coming in today.