Social Economy
I welcome Norman Drummond from Columba 1400. This agenda item arises from a suggestion from Wendy Alexander, who, I believe, visited Columba 1400 before Christmas and was enthusiastic about its work. The discussion is also a prelude to the possibility of a successor committee doing a wider inquiry into the role of the social economy in Scotland. I was corrected last night at a meeting, when somebody said that I should use the term "community enterprise", not "social economy". However, we will not get too obsessed with titles.
I ask Norman Drummond to introduce his team and to say a few words to supplement the excellent written evidence with which he has supplied us.
Norman Drummond (Columba 1400):
It is a deep honour for a young not-for-profit organisation such as Columba 1400 to be invited to give evidence to the committee and we appreciate it very much. It is my pleasure to introduce Ian Chisholm, who is our chief executive and who is from Canada and Skye, and Stevie Seigerson, who is our senior programme director and who is from Glasgow and Skye. I presume that our paper has been distributed and read, so I will address three questions that might help to fill out the rather concise material in the paper.
First, what is Columba 1400? The organisation has its roots in the early 1970s, when I was a young parish minister in Easterhouse in Glasgow and in West Pilton in Edinburgh. In those places, I saw a great loss of potential because young people of various ages turned their backs, or had their backs turned, and were being increasingly disadvantaged. That experience lived with me throughout various phases of my life and, as we have only one path in this earthly pilgrimage, I wanted to attack the issue before I depart.
In 1996, as the parish minister of Kilmuir and Stenscholl on the Isle of Skye, I noticed that there is as much deprivation in rural environments as there is in urban ones. With the help of Highlands and Islands Enterprise and others, we set out to build the first prototype centre of its kind—a purpose-built community centre with a leadership academy alongside it to address the tough realities and the needs of young people with standing starts.
Why are we called Columba 1400? We started fundraising on 9 June 1997, which was St Columba's day, and which was 1,400 years after Columba's death. We feel that the name brings together the best of the old and the best of the new. As our paper points out, the centre was officially opened on 3 June 2000.
Secondly, what do we do? A large number of organisations use the community centre, but, in addition to our community responsibilities, we run two courses. The first is the what other way—WOW—programme, which we piloted in Easterhouse in Glasgow and which is now rolled out in other parts of Scotland and in Bromley by Bow and Camberwell in London. The course begins with a month of preparation in the community, which is followed by an eight to 10-day stay at the leadership academy at our centre on the island. Thereafter, there is a period of three to six months of mentoring and monitoring. We believe that our success comes from the continuity of having a preparatory period and mentoring and monitoring thereafter. Stevie Seigerson is the youth development officer for Glasgow and particularly the greater Easterhouse area. He has now joined us as a senior programme director and is an expert in the WOW programme.
Our second course is the Gemini programme, which involves eight to 10 young managers or apprentices and eight to 10 young people who have a standing start because of homelessness and poverty. The search and the sense of common humanity have produced incredible results. Lloyds TSB, HBOS and Rolls-Royce have joined us in a new way of looking at things. Ian Chisholm, who is the project director of the Gemini project, came to us from the American Management Association, where he ran the young enterprise scheme, which involved taking the children of boardroom personalities into the tough realities and mean streets of the United States, including the Bronx, Harlem, Philadelphia and Oakland. We are glad that Ian Chisholm has brought that special scheme to Scotland through Columba 1400.
Thirdly, how are we doing? A number of statistics are included in the papers that members have before them. Perhaps the most relevant and up-to-date statistic is that up until 2000, when we started working in the greater Easterhouse area, 53 per cent of those who were on training courses made their way into a place at work or at college. Since 2000, that percentage has risen to 86 per cent for the youngsters—of all ages, it has to be said—who have been with us. When the First Minister visited in August, along with Tom Farmer, I remember that Tom Farmer said to me, "Where do you go from here?" The issue was one of scalability. I said to Tom that, if we were the Kwik-Fit of the social sector, we would be wanting to look for venture capital to roll out in other places. Our hope and intention is to establish similar academies—not even to build centres but to have academies—in the north-east of Scotland, the Borders and the south-west of Scotland, where our initiative has already begun.
On the social economy, if I am still allowed to use that term—like the convener, I have been corrected for doing so—it is important to note that in a small organisation such as Columba 1400, in a remote rural area, it has been possible to translate an idea on a piece of paper into a reality. Within three years, the organisation is employing 15 people and is one of the largest employers on the Isle of Skye. All that has been done according to proven and tried and tested business practice.
I will end my introductory remarks with three quotations. One is from history, one is from modern Scotland and the third is from the international world. The quotation from history concerns John Buchan, who, when writing of the Duke of Montrose, said that the duke felt:
"Our task is not to put the greatness back into humanity, but to elicit it, for the greatness is there already."
That is the founding doctrine, if you like, of Columba 1400. Our task is not to give post-dated care and to throw lashings of money at people after problems have happened, but to start with the inner heart and soul of an individual child. Our task is therefore not to put greatness back into humanity, but to bring it out; we believe that it is essentially there already.
The second quotation comes from modern Scotland, from Sir Peter Burt, who was one of our leading corporate sponsors when he was governor of the Bank of Scotland. He wrote recently:
"Rarely has bread cast upon the waters brought so rich and ready a return."
The third quotation comes from the international world—increasingly, I am invited overseas to speak about Columba 1400 and we are due to begin in Australia, New Zealand and, all being well, the United States by the end of the year. At a conference in America, the Hungarian ambassador to the United States came up to me after my keynote speech and said, "If you can keep your nerve and your confidence, this could be another of Scotland's great gifts to the world."
The world apart, we are here before the committee today—and privileged to be here—because we wish to contribute not only to the world but to modern Scotland.
Thank you very much. We are privileged to have you here.
We have got the statistics. From your written evidence and your introductory comments, it is clear that this is a highly desirable project—if I can call it that. Perhaps I should ask whether you take politicians into the leadership academy for training, if they demonstrate potential.
What can the Scottish Parliament and Executive do to further empower you and help you to expand and develop the idea in Scotland and internationally? How can we help?
First, it would be great if you could bring the committee to see what is going on. Members can read submissions and we have a well-produced video or CD-ROM, copies of which are available for all the members of the committee to take away with them. However, the reality of seeing the young people who come from standing starts—from homelessness and poverty—has been the factor that has turned people round to realising that something special is happening. One of our sayings is that the little that we communicate simply to another person—another person's child—can find a resonance in their soul that may last their whole life long.
In the political world, you obviously deal with policies and do your best to push back process and bureaucracy; however, we have something that works on the ground. In that regard—and subject to the election—a visit from the committee would be most welcome and we would endeavour to provide an occasion that would allow members to see a leadership academy in action. For example, when the First Minister visited us with Sir Tom Farmer and Sir Peter Burt, we had an academy that was made up of people from the Archbishop Michael Ramsey Technology College in Camberwell. I think that the First Minister learned quite a lot from the people from that very tough area of south-east London, which has a 7 per cent white population.
Columba 1400 can help Scotland to reach some multicultural and multiracial understanding and ensure that we are not locked in our boxes of denomination, let alone locked in our faith or no-faith perspectives. We should be able to celebrate other cultures. If the committee visited the project, it would produce a whole host of ideas on which we would be delighted to work in partnership with the Scottish Parliament and Scottish Executive.
My view is that the committee or the successor committee should put a visit to Columba 1400 on its agenda. However, that would have to happen after the election and would depend on whether our committee was split between enterprise and lifelong learning. I do not think that any members would disagree in principle with that suggestion.
The First Minister said that, subject to the election, he thought that a Gemini-type project between members of the Cabinet and eight to 10 young people from standing starts would be an interesting experience.
Given the sterile territory that the committee sometimes requires to travel over, this project was like an oasis.
However, I want to be tedious and elicit a few facts—I apologise if I have missed them in your submission. What is the average length of a course?
Stevie Seigerson (Columba 1400):
The leadership academy residential programme, which takes place on Skye, lasts eight days. The WOW programme is much broader and has a kind of before and an after attached to it.
That is helpful.
As far as the Gemini project is concerned, in which eight young people mirror eight business leaders, what happens to the eight who come from an economically challenged area? Has Gemini existed for long enough to allow you to track them and assess what happens to them?
The WOW programme partly prepares some young people who might be interested to move on to a second level, which is the Gemini project. We then undertake some non-directional coaching with those young people. For example, in the Easterhouse model, I would have some sessions with the young people in Easterhouse to get them ready, while another member of staff would get the private sector group ready. Both groups would then meet. The programme is not based on the notion that the person from the private sector acts as a mentor and is thrown together with a wee poor person from Easterhouse. Instead, two individuals coach each other using a non-directional coaching model. It is a wee bit different in that respect.
Has Gemini got under way or is it still in the embryonic stage?
Ian Chisholm (Columba 1400):
We have worked with Rolls-Royce and Lloyds TSB. Crisply put, the philosophy behind the Gemini project is that there are some tough situations and socioeconomic realities out there. We have recently had good discussions with a lot of organisations that work with young carers, which is another tough reality, no matter which social background a young person comes from.
A person who is used to surviving day after day in a tough reality—I will call it that, because I am describing situational, economic, social and geographic realities—naturally has the characteristics that we want in people in the Scottish Parliament, our board rooms and our council chambers. Such people can make tough decisions as quickly as possible, solve problems, resolve intricate conflicts and understand the value of a code of ethics.
I will not tell too many anecdotes, but a lovely one highlights the kind of coaching that we ask such people to undertake. After day 2 of the residential part of the Gemini project, the groups were calling themselves the Easties and the Lloydies—the Lloydies were the corporate fast-track people from Lloyds TSB. In that way, there was a level playing field, if that makes sense. The groups coached each other: one group had street-savvy leadership, while the other had the polished and recognised corporate leadership potential that is desperate for the kind of nitty-gritty presence that brings out trust and commitment in people. After all, we can sense whether people can actually get things done. The fact that such a quality is coming in spades out of areas such as Easterhouse, Govan and Craigmillar is exactly why we like to put such groups together.
The philosophy that tough realities create leadership potential that has actual business value for corporate fast tracks is a good one. We would not wish tough realities on anybody, but if talent comes out of tough realities—that is the idea that came from the US and Canada—we are on to something. That takes it away from being just a good thing that Norman Drummond and his gang are doing up on Skye to something that is actually very smart. That is when the social economy has to click in and then it lasts. If it is a smart thing to do, an initiative such as this one lasts within the social economy. If it is just a good thing to do, funding patterns change and it does not last.
Perhaps I should declare an interest as a director of the Prince's Scottish Youth Business Trust. Mr Drummond, to what extent do you liaise with other groups in Scotland that are trying to deal with disadvantaged areas and to enable young people from those areas to make a step forward?
Greatly. In our submission, we refer to our partnerships. We would not have been able to achieve what we have achieved in such a short period unless we had had an exemplary record of partnerships.
Competition for funding is one of the sad things about the social economy and the charitable sector. Four charities start up every week in Scotland. I am a trustee of the Lloyds TSB Foundation for Scotland, and the material that comes before us shows that there is an incredible atmosphere of competition, with people applying for the same pot of gold. In our partnerships with the Big Issue in Scotland Ltd, Youth at Risk and the Prince's Scottish Youth Business Trust, we have sought to begin conversations about funding in an adult way. We have endeavoured to ensure that there is—in your parliamentary language—joined-up thinking for a smart, successful Scotland.
The talent out there is considerable. I know from my other working responsibilities how many people are tired of the corporate world and are looking for something else in their lives. I would not say that it is uniquely Scottish, but there is an attitude that is part and parcel of the way in which you and I were reared in a certain part of Scotland—if I have a job, I look after it; if I have a family, I look after it. There is then a third dimension: what else am I doing with my life? We find that Columba 1400, in partnership with the Prince's Scottish Youth Business Trust, or whatever, is getting into the corporate world in an incredible way. People are saying, "Yes. I feel all the better for having given more of my life not just to my top-down, hierarchical corporate structure, which is not good for my heart and soul. I want to feed my heart and soul by doing something relevant for someone else." In that regard, partnership is everything.
I echo what Annabel Goldie said. It is a shame that we have reached the oasis so late on in the meeting. Tavish Scott, who has had to leave, was very interested in the submission that we received from Columba 1400. In the event that we are elected to serve again, and in the event that the committee survives, we will certainly be willing to take you up on your offer.
I cannot say how excited I am about the submission that we have received. I am still not quite sure what we were being asked to support by the previous witnesses, but I know what I am being asked to support here. As someone who grew up in both Argyll and Priesthill, in Glasgow, I share Norman Drummond's interests and insights. What we see here is a useful antidote to the Scottish cringe, which we have repatriated since devolution. Managing not to do that will be very important.
I like your reference to tough realities, and I would like to pursue that issue a wee bit. In my own life, my wider family, my faith and my teachers helped me to get through in quite a tough working-class community. My realities were probably less tough than others. Life is tough for kids in Easterhouse, which we describe as a working-class community, but which has little work or community. We spend much time discussing our concerns about employability and getting people to pre-modern apprenticeship levels, but what people need is a bit of stability, so that they are given a platform on which to build a life for themselves.
I echo the convener's point. Aside from writing a cheque or encouraging the Executive to do so, what would it be good for government at all levels to do to support people in having confidence, purpose and focus? Will you tell us in detail about what you do? You talked about scalability. Can we easily roll out and translate your approach throughout Scotland?
In the initial Easterhouse model, when I developed the "what other way" programme, we had to recognise existing networks. The funding streams to sponsor the young people underlined the reality change that was needed for some of those young people. The WOW programme pilot was funded by Europe and was about employment and training. Subsequently, we had clients who were funded by the new futures fund, so stabilising their chaotic lives was the beginning of the process for them. It was more challenging to move those clients into employment and training than it was to do the same with the people who had funding from Europe. A range of clients is involved.
The only way to make things work is to recognise what is happening in the community—the community could be greater Easterhouse, Govan, Skye or anywhere. We must acknowledge what is in place, which goes back to partnership. Partnership enhances what other people are asking for; people measure what they need to measure according to the sources of the funding streams. Does that answer your question?
I think so. Are you urging us to provide support, or will you do your scalability exercise then ask the Executive whether it is interested and whether it will lend you support?
I would greatly value it if the Scottish Executive or Scottish Parliament challenged a series of pilots because, as Ms Goldie said, pilots are everything in terms of partnership. The feeling is that we should check out what works and where and how it works; otherwise, it would be wrong to move into the four other areas. I am sorry that Tavish Scott is not present, because I would have mentioned the northern isles in my opening remarks as well; I am sure that he would bid for such an initiative.
We needed a citadel type of place on Skye to make people realise what was possible. Those who are involved in the aspect of education in question have no doubts about the system, provided that follow-up mentoring and monitoring are conducted. Schemes such as Columba 1400 and others have been criticised; it has been said that they give people nice holidays then leave them to cope without support. However, according to the Columban code of values, which is in the committee's papers, and according to Columba's challenge, we have two and a half years of people who consider themselves Columbans and who are doing such following up.
The name does not have to be Columba 1400; it could relate to somewhere in the north-east. For instance, in New Zealand and Australia, the names would not necessarily be Columba 1400 Australia or Columba 1400 New Zealand. New Zealanders are keen to have a Maori feel—an aboriginal feel—to bring people together.
We are working in south-west Scotland. A challenge might be for Columba 1400 to run, with suitable monitoring, three pilot academies throughout Scotland in the first year. I know that the University of Paisley is keen to be involved and on Monday I met Professor Alex MacLennan, who is the director of lifelong learning there. I envisage such work infiltrating and invigorating Scotland's education about values. Brian Fitzpatrick talked about his faith, family and schooling. It is one-on-one contact with another person that really inspires people, rather than the pedagogical didactic approach of saying, "Here is knowledge, come and get it." When people work alongside one another, in one-on-one situations, the soul is inspired. We find that people become interested and that they get things done.
Bearing in mind the fragmentation of so much of Scottish family life, if we could inculcate the Columban values of awareness, focus, creativity, integrity and perseverance—all leading to service—we might well give the children, such as the Rolls Royce apprentices, a code that they can take back into their appraisal system. I spoke to the First Minister about that during his informal visit. We should have pilot programmes throughout Scotland but we should perhaps also set up a study to see whether the values can be inculcated in our education system.
I am very pleased to hear all that. Perhaps Ian Chisholm could answer this. I am not against altruism, but I like the fact that a kind of rebuff to do-goodery is the driving motive. Despite the fact that Lloyds TSB included a waiver in its comments, what it said is curious in that we do not often hear people who have been on a course stress that participants must do it again. Companies obviously gain benefit from it, rather than merely ticking their corporate social responsibility box and saying that they have done a bit of do-goodery on Skye. Have you had feedback on what were the advantages for Lloyds TSB, Rolls Royce or whatever that encouraged them to get involved?
The experience is of a practical and measurable human resources value for people who are very talented in terms of their IQ. Susan Rice, the chief executive of Lloyds TSB Scotland is a champion for corporate social responsibility in Scotland. She demands that such involvement be smart business and not just do-goodery. Her HR personnel say that the project is an assault course of emotional intelligence. People gain from it an ability to connect with people who would otherwise just be strangers on the bus, if indeed they ever took the bus. The project is about the ability to connect with people, which is valuable not just to business but to community development, to Government and to families.
The project has been a challenge, which is why we have adopted symbols for the six core principles that we use as the scaffolding for all our courses. It is no surprise that we developed symbols, because there are a lot of heavy-duty learning differences among the young people who come to Skye. Some would be threatened by having six words in front of them, but they think that there is something cool and enticing about symbols.
Members can imagine the challenge of finding a lingo that links eight rough-and-ready and possibly long-term unemployed people or single mums from Easterhouse with eight people whom I do not think it would be inaccurate to call the "ego crew"—people who have been chosen to run a bank in 10 years' time. The words that come up are the words that I think are important. Words such as "dignity" are used and questions are asked such as, "What kind of a person do you want to be to your kids?" The language is real; it is not leadership or business lingo and it is certainly not politically correct. There is a real language out there that both sets of people can use. By using that new language, people can consider things differently and they are able to develop a better attitude and perspective.
We are very much at the end of changing attitudes in both the groups that I mentioned, so that people can learn better or in a way that is more congruent, given what has to be done. The attitude comes first—if we open the palette we can then paint. We have often talked about the difference between painting a fence on which the paint will not stick and what Columba 1400 does in combination with its partners.
I reiterate what Stevie Seigerson said. We have sought to amplify the heroic efforts that are already being made in communities throughout Scotland. Sometimes people have been fighting on the front line in social and community development for so long that they are exhausted. They need something that re-energises not only their clients, but their staff and organisations. We have pulled in Stevie Seigerson to be part of the core Columba 1400 team so that we can do that in more communities and give people something that enhances what they already do.
Anything that can get 86 per cent of people into some form of employment or education deserves every bit of support and every push that we can give.
We are very much the primer on the fence that makes the paint stick. Learndirect Scotland is a partner that has just come on board, and—
Are those six symbols that we can see—
I need to move on and give other folk a chance. I call Marilyn Livingstone.
I found Norman Drummond's presentation to be very interesting, to say the least. Like other members, I am sorry that we cannot fit in a visit before the election, because that would have been very interesting.
I have been on the committee since day 1 and, in our various discussions, I have been committed to ascertaining how we can involve the whole community in economic development. It is not possible to separate economic development from social development. In my previous life I was committed to helping people who felt disaffected with learning or work, or who were simply disaffected with being part of their communities. Last night I was in the small mining village of West Wemyss in Fife—I represent a Fife constituency—where a very innovative project is run through the social economy, which I was very pleased to see. A lot of good work is going on.
If an initiative is working successfully for the people who we want to reach their full potential, it is important to ask: How can we ensure that it is sustainable and that that sustainability can be rolled out? Although we are not able to undertake a visit, it would be helpful not just for the committee, but for our communities, to explore the matter further.
I would also like to know more about the expansion initiatives that you mentioned and I would like more information about your outreach programme and your "Scotland values education" initiative. Those initiatives certainly sit well with the committee.
I will deal first with the second part of the question. Stevie Seigerson will address the first part, about mentoring and monitoring, which you are right to have highlighted as being essential, because it is all about the community to which people return.
The journey to Skye is important. People go to the island prepared, and the journeys there and back allow people to see parts of Scotland that they might never otherwise have seen. A quick tour up the west and east coasts of the island enlivens those who go there.
As far as the "Scotland values education" initiative is concerned, I return to what Mr Fitzpatrick said in relation to getting in touch with the educators. I have been an educator for most of my life and I feel that educational reform is often piecemeal, and slaps more pressure on teachers. Reform can make teachers feel more tired and less vibrant as they hit the classroom, particularly in primary schools.
However much salaries improve, we need to get in earlier and have recognisable behavioural systems in place. For instance, Archbishop Michael Ramsey Technology College has taken our core values to its ambassadors—it has 15 to 25 ambassadors in schools. Those of us in education know that there is nothing better than when peer groups set the standard. It is all very well when the teacher sets the standard, but it is much better when the peer group sets the standard.
We would be happy to begin discussions, but we need a few academics with us. We do not want too much paper, process or bureaucracy—but let us see what might be possible. Indeed, someone mentioned the idea of setting up a laboratory for what Scottish education might look like in the future. Members of this distinguished committee do not need me to tell them that an awful lot of what we do goes absolutely nowhere. League tables and so on do not help people into jobs, and they do not help people to choose the right partners for life or to make the right life decisions.
On roll-out, and in response to Mr Fitzpatrick and Miss Goldie, I can say that the areas that we are considering include Aberdeen and the north-east.
We could pick up on the Celtic saints, because we think that there is much to learn from our past in respect of acceptance and being on a shared journey. The early Celtic peoples spoke of warmth and hospitality, which we have rather lost sight of in moving so far from community living. St Machar or someone else from the north-east could be picked up on, because he appeals to the north-easterners. St Cuthbert could be picked up on in the Borders. We are already considering a project called Ninian 1600 in south-west Scotland. As I said, such nomenclature can bring the values of Columba, for example, right up to date and is a slightly trendy way of making those values acceptable. That is a good lead to what Stevie Seigerson can say about returning Columbans having something in common when they return to their communities.
I want to talk about sustainability and the aftercare package for people returning from the residential course. If an organisation refers a group of young people and we are doing early work with them, one condition that we impose is that there should be two support people throughout the residential course, which results in there being connections that might not exist if appointments were made to see those on the course only twice a month. We find that there is continuity when people are together as groups and when officers, or whatever their titles are, go through the course as participants with the clients that they bring. At night, what has happened to the client will be thought about at home—faces will regularly come back to haunt people. We receive such feedback from people whom we put through the programme.
With the arrival of every person who comes through the door at Columba 1400, we start to build a community of people that will return. All of a sudden, their reality becomes a wee bit different. When they return to their communities, their biggest challenge will be the cold bucket of water that will be thrown over them. People will say: "How dare they feel confident and ask questions that should not be asked." They need support, so it is important that other people are around them when they return to that reality.
I have a wee life lesson. I spent three months in Africa when I was young. When I returned, I lived in a housing scheme in the east end of Glasgow, and I asked myself what would happen next. That has stuck with me all my life. We have worked hard with other organisations on the support that is needed when people return to the community. On the last day of the programme, participants will have under their arms a list of support people who have been through academies, or they can lift the phone and call us; there are many options. People might simply want to share what they think. One practical measure is that, after they have been to the project, participants have an informal monthly where-are-you-now session, which is a life-raft for some in that they have a place to go where they can share again and where they can discuss why their partner gave them a hard time when they returned.
That is fascinating, but I am conscious of the time, so we will take David Mundell's and Ken Macintosh's questions together.
Fortunately, Stevie Seigerson answered my question, which was helpful. I have experience of the corporate side—not with Columba 1400, but of similar projects relating to leadership and other skills. I remember that it was difficult to manage people back into the working environment on the corporate side, because they were enlivened and invigorated before returning to work. They found that work was just the same and they ended up being more frustrated than they had been when they left. Often, I thought that the company was adversely affected.
I am interested in what was said about the community. Support and the ability to ask questions as to why one's partner does not think it is great that one has been away for eight days and has come back full of joy are important. However, before Ken Macintosh asks his question, will you say what you are doing in the south-west?
Ken Macintosh can ask his question first.
We will try to be brief.
I notice that one of the courses is certificated by the University of Strathclyde. Where does the work that you do in Columba 1400 fit in with the new Scottish credit and qualifications framework? Is it pre-accredited learning, experiential learning or is all of it accredited? Where would somebody from a local community get the funding to attend a course?
We are approaching the accreditation question backwards. Diving into the corporate realm was the acid test of whether our leadership material was good enough to put in front of a discerning and hard-nosed corporate crew. In many companies, 80 per cent of personal development work must be accredited and we wanted to make sure that our work was good enough to be accredited, which was, perhaps, putting the cart before the horse. From the position that we are in now, of having been up and running for two-and-a-half years, we intend to work backwards through the Scottish quality management system to ensure that our programmes, for example the WOW programme, become accredited. It is amazing how various things that people want to do can serve as credits that they need for whatever they want to do next.
All of that is a huge case study that gets back to the scalability question. We deal with hundreds of people a year, but if we are to deal with thousands, we must consider an important parallel: when you take the best person from the shop floor and make them a manager, you lose a top person from the shop floor and sometimes you end up with a good manager, but sometimes you do not. In the same way, at present, we have a gem—I use the word on purpose—of quality. If I was to answer the question of what the Scottish Executive could do to help us, I would say that it should help us into different packages, that it should continue to protect the quality of our gem and that it should provide us with secondments or a team of people from champions of scalability, such as the Open University and the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organisation. Champions of scalability do not focus on quality—they let the people responsible for that do that. They simply manage the process of scaling up. We could use that. We are good at maintaining the quality of an irreversible personal experience—if you do it right, you only have to do it once. That is why Jobcentre Plus has picked us up: it is tired of the cycle of somebody not getting a job again and again despite all efforts. You need to hit them once and you need to hit them hard. If we are to scale such work, we will need some high-priced help and secondments from the champions of scalability.
The funding route that should be taken by an individual will depend on the location. For example, if the person lives in a social inclusion partnership area, he or she can go into their local economic development company or jobcentre and get access to our programmes and be referred to various partners. If that network is clear, the cost should be picked up.
Is funding available if the area is not a SIP area?
We obtain private-sector funding for certain packages. We have to liaise as often as we can with the existing networks.
The incredible thing about funding is that those who are looking to do something else with their lives and who may have a ridiculously reasonable salary, find that they gain such benefit that they do not experience the corporate drop that would be associated with charitable giving. We stand against the concept of charitable giving. It might salve a few consciences, but it is not corporate social responsibility, which works from the bottom up and involves working alongside people. Often, we find that there are some responsible and good benefactions for which we are very grateful.
The contact with the south-west of Scotland is through Andrew Campbell, the convener of Dumfries and Galloway Council. We met Fraser Sanderson, the education and social work convener down there—it is interesting to see education and social work being put together in such an imaginative way. One of the directors of Columba 1400 is John Moorhouse, who used to be the chief executive of Scottish Business in the Community. There is a great enthusiasm in the south-west for looking at what might be possible.
In my BBC guise, I visited the south-west of Scotland after the Solway Harvester disaster and saw that there was terrible deprivation and problems with drugs. That is an area that we would like to target if funding and opportunity became available. The first move, however, is to work towards establishing three pilot academies in the south-west of Scotland during the summer. We have been incredibly grateful for, and impressed by, the diligence of Dumfries and Galloway Council and the attention that we have received from Andrew Campbell, Fraser Sanderson and others.
Does the committee agree that we should add to our legacy paper a recommendation that our successor committee should pay a visit to Skye to pursue this issue?
Members indicated agreement.
I want to place on record our thanks to Norman Drummond and his team. This has been an enlightening meeting. I also want to pay tribute to the particularly excellent paper on the social economy that was prepared by the Scottish Parliament information centre.
It would be marvellous if your successor committee could visit us—we shall plan towards that. However, if any individual members would like to visit our magical misty isle, I assure you that one day on the island is worth two on the mainland. When it is 11 o'clock in the morning, you think it is lunch time. Given your busy parliamentary lives, I think that it would be very good for you all to go and spend some time there.
I would like to reinforce that. I recently attended a conference involving the Institute of Contemporary Scotland, which works with 18 to 29-year-olds. I met Tam from the Gorbals, who was in his mid-20s and had been in Barlinnie a few times. The combination of the work that the Prince's Trust and the Institute of Contemporary Scotland had done had, in his words, taken him out of a life of crime and into a life with hope. He also said that if I gave him a job, he would make sure that everybody in the Gorbals voted SNP in the election. I am sure that he would—he was brilliant.
Meeting closed at 12:56.