Education, Culture and Sport Committee,

Meeting date: Tuesday, May 2, 2000

Official Report 422KB pdf

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Standards in Scotland's Schools etc Bill: Stage 2

We begin with a presentation by representatives supporting Gaelic-medium education. I will ask the three witnesses to introduce themselves, to explain whom they represent and to speak to the committee for about 10 minutes. The witnesses will then take questions from members of the committee. We will try to bring questioning to a close at about 11 o'clock, as it will be followed by a further evidence-taking session on libraries. I ask each of the witnesses to introduce themselves and the organisation that they represent.

Mòran taing. Is mise Iain MacLeòid agus tha mi na mo chathraiche air Comann nam Pàrant (Nàiseanta). Ma chanas mi facal an toiseach mu dheidhinn Comann nam Pàrant. 'S e buidheann Nàiseanta a tha seo a tha a' riochdachadh phàrantan aig a bheil clann ann an siostam foghlam tro mheadhan na Gàidhlig taobh staigh sgoiltean—

I am sorry. Can I just stop you for a moment. I have been told that members should be on channel 2 instead of channel 3. Please change your gadgets accordingly.

I knew that my Gaelic was bad, but I did not realise that my English was that bad as well.

I am sorry to have interrupted you, Mr MacLeod. Please carry on.

Tapa leibh. Is mise Iain MacLeòid. Tha mi na mo chathraiche air Comann nam Pàrant (Nàiseanta) agus 's e buidheann nàiseanta tha sin a tha a' riochdachadh phàrantan aig a bheil clann ann an siostam foghlam tro mheadhan na Gàidhlig air feadh Alba. Chuir sinn an athchuinge a-steach gun a' Phàrlamaid a dh'aobhraich an cothrom seo fianais a thoirt dhan a' chomataidh airson dhà na thrì aobharan.

Tha trì aobharan sònraichte ann. An toiseach, ged a tha ùidh mhòr againn ann an cànan na Gàidhlig tha sinn dhen bheachd gur e foghlam is cudromaiche buileach agus, air sgàth sin, tha sinn airson gum bi foghlam Gàidhlig air fhaicinn mar shiostam foghlaim a tha taobh staigh siostam foghlaim na stàite san fharsaingeachd, an àite a bhith a bharrachd air foghlam coitcheann.

A rithist, mar shiostam foghlaim a tha air a bhith air leth soirbheachail anns na còig bliadhna deug a chaidh seachad, tha foghlam tron Ghàidhlig airidh air a bhith stèidhte ann an lagh na dùthcha mar a tha foghlam tron Bheurla. Mar sin, tha e iomchaidh gum bi taic dha siostam foghlaim na Gàidhlig air a dhaigneachadh ann am bile foghlaim, a' chiad bile foghlaim a tha Pàrlamaid na h-Alba a' stèidheachadh.

Is e foghlam tron Ghàidhlig an iomairt is cudromaiche a tha a' dol air adhart taobh staigh obair leasachaidh cànan na Gàidhlig aig an àm seo. Tha feum air leudachadh agus neartachadh a thoirt air an iomairt sin agus tha e cudromach gun toir Pàrlamaid na h-Alba a h-uile taic is urrainn dhaibh dhi leis a h-uile cothrom a thig fan comhair. Mar sin, mholainn dhan chomataidh gabhail ris na molaidhean a tha san athchuinge agus atharraichidhean iomchaidh a mholadh taobh staigh bile an fhoghlaim. Tapa leibh.

Thank you. I am John MacLeod, the convener of Comann nam Pàrant, the National Gaelic Parents Association. CNP is a national representative body for parents whose children are in the Gaelic-medium education system throughout Scotland. At the beginning of the year, we submitted the petition that has led to this evidence session. Although we have a great love of the Gaelic language, we feel that education is even more important and, for that reason, we want Gaelic-medium education recognised as a system within the general education set-up, rather than as an add-on to mainstream education.

As Gaelic-medium education has been particularly successful in the past 15 years, we feel that it deserves to have the same statutory foundation within the Scottish legal system as English-medium education. It is therefore appropriate that Gaelic-medium education should be supported and enforced in the first education bill to be approved by the Scottish Parliament.

Gaelic-medium education is recognised as the most important initiative in the framework of Gaelic language development and, as such, needs to be promoted and developed. It is vital that the Scottish Parliament gives us every support through all available opportunities. With that, we suggest that the committee accepts the recommendations in our petition and changes the Standards in Scotland's Schools etc Bill accordingly.

Tapa leat, Iain. Is mise Ailean Caimbeul agus tha mi na mo cheannard air Comunn na Gàidhlig, buidheann leasachaidh nàiseanta na Gàidhlig ann an Alba. Tha sinne mar bhuidheann air a bhith a' cothachadh airson foghlam tro mheadhan na Gàidhlig bho chaidh a' bhuidheann a stèidheachadh bho chionn—

I am sorry, I will have to stop you again. We are not receiving any simultaneous interpretation. [Interruption.] Thank you. Can you begin again, please.

Feuchaidh mi a rithist. Bheil sibh ga mo chluinntinn a-nis? Tha e mòr leam a' ràdh gur ann a dh'aon ghnothaich a bhathas a' cur clos orm.

I am sorry. We seem to be having some problems this morning. [Interruption.] I apologise for the delay. I will give you longer than 10 minutes, so do not worry. Mr Campbell, could you start again, please.

Tapa leibh. Is mise Ailean Caimbeul, ceannard Chomunn na Gàidhlig, buidheann leasachaidh nàiseanta na Gàidhlig. Tha sinne mar bhuidheann air a bhith a' tagradh agus a' cothachadh airson foghlam Gàidhlig bho chaidh a' bhuidheann a stèidheachadh bho chionn sia bliadhna deug air ais agus bha sinn ga mheas na chothrom shònraichte nuair a chaidh Pàrlamaid na h-Alba a chruthachadh agus gu robh sinn a' faireachadh gu robh seo a' dol a thoirt cothrom sònraichte dhuinn Gàidhlig, tè de phrìomh chànanan Alba, a thoirt air adhart gu ìre laghail—rud nach robh aice riamh roimhe.

Bho chionn ceithir bliadhna air ais, chuir sinn, tro bhuidheann comhairleachaidh a th' againn air foghlam Gàidhlig, pàipear deasbaid poileasaidh nàiseanta airson na Gàidhlig chun a' Riaghaltais a bh' ann mar stiùireadh dhaibhsan air mar a mhiannaicheamaid foghlam na Gàidhlig fhaicinn a' gluasad air adhart.

Lean sinn sin an uairsin le poileasaidh anns an fharsaingeachd airson na Gàidhlig a bha a' gabhail a-staigh a h-uile pàirt de bheatha na Gàidhlig air feadh Alba. Bha am poileasaidh sin air a tharraing ri chèile ann an cuideachd agus ann an conaltradh le buidhnean mar Comhairle nan Sgoiltean Araich, Comann nam Pàrant agus na buidhnean Gàidhlig eile a tha ag obair aig ìre na coimhearsnachd. 'S e an treas rud a rinn sinn 's e am pàipear seo, "Dreach Iùil airson Achd Gàidhlig", agus chaidh sin a chur chun na Phàrlamaid an uiridh, meadhan an t-samhraidh an uiridh, agus tha mi a' smaoineachadh gun d' fhuair a h-uile ball leth-bhreac dheth. Chuirinn nur cuimhne gun do gheall a h-uile prìomh phàrtaidh a th' anns a' Phàrlamaid seo taic dhan inbhe thèarainte sin agus gum biodh iad deònach gun deigheadh inbhe na Gàidhlig a thoirt air adhart aig ìre laghail ann an Alba.

Tha foghlam tro mheadhan na Gàidhlig mar bhunait shònraichte dhan an amas sin air inbhe na Gàidhlig agus ged a dh'fhaoidte a' ràdh gun gabhadh dèiligeadh ri foghlam mar phàirt de bhile Gàidhlig, chan eil e a' dèanamh ciall dhuinne gum biodh bile foghlaim ga chur air adhart tron Phàrlamaid seo gun iomradh ga thoirt air tè de phrìomh chànanan na h-Alba.

'S e an t-amas a th' againn, agus an aonta a th' againn mar bhuidhnean a tha ag obair às leth na Gàidhlig, gu feum Gàidhlig a bhith air fhidhe staigh mar phàirt de bheatha làitheil na dùthcha seo ma tha a' chànan sin gu bhith buan. Tha sin a' ciallachadh gum feum Gàidhlig cuideachd a bhith air a fidhe staigh mar phàirt de bheatha làitheil foghlam na dùthcha seo agus craoladh na dùthcha seo agus gnìomhachas na dùthcha seo. Tha sinn dhen bheachd gu bheil cothrom sònraichte ann ceum a ghabhail às leth na Gàidhlig tro bhile an fhoghlaim seo agus tha sinn a' smaoineachadh, mar sin, gu bheil còir aig Gàidhlig a bhith air a h-ainmeachadh gu sònraichte anns a' bhile seo cuideachd. Tapa leibh.

Thank you. My name is Allan Campbell and I am the chief executive of Comunn na Gàidhlig, which is a Gaelic national development organisation. The organisation began fighting for and promoting Gaelic-medium education about 16 years ago. We felt that the establishment of the Scottish Parliament provided an excellent opportunity to promote Gaelic, as one of the languages of Scotland, in a legal framework.

Four years ago, through our Gaelic education committee, we wrote a paper on a national framework for Gaelic education, to help people to understand how Gaelic-medium education should be developed. Then we wrote another policy paper on every aspect of developing Gaelic throughout Scotland, which was drawn together through holding discussions and many meetings at a community level and with different Gaelic organisations, such as those represented here today.

Our third action was to produce the document, "Draft Brief for a Gaelic Language Act", a draft of which was given to the Parliament in the middle of summer last year. I believe that all members received a copy of that document, and I remind members that all the main parties in the Parliament promised both to support our initiative and that Gaelic would achieve legal status in Scotland.

Gaelic-medium education is an important milestone, as it is fundamental to the development of Gaelic. Although we could deal with education as part of a Gaelic bill, it does not make sense to us that an education bill could be introduced in the Parliament without mentioning Gaelic, which is one of the main languages of Scotland. All Gaelic organisations agree that Gaelic must become a central part of the daily life of this country if that language is to survive. That means that Gaelic must become part of everything in this country, including industry, education and broadcasting. In this bill, we believe that we have a tremendous opportunity to take an important step forward. Therefore, Gaelic should receive a special mention in the bill.

Is mise Fionnlagh MacLeòid. Tha mi ag obair aig Comhairle nan Sgoiltean Araich. Tha a' bhuidheann mar bhuidheann nàiseanta ag obair air feadh Alba gu lèir. Thòisich CNSA fichead bliadhna air ais. Aig an àm sin cha robh ach ceithir buidhnean fo aois sgoile ann. Anns an fhichead bliadhna chaidh seachad tha sin air èirigh. Tha seachad air 140 buidheann uile gu lèir agus timcheall air 2,500 leanabh. Thairis air na bliadhnaichean sin tha iomadach seòrsa atharrachadh air tighinn air foghlam fo aois sgoile. Tha pàirt dhe na h-atharraichidhean air a bhith air leth math. Pàirt eile, chan eil. Leis a h-uile buannachd tha call.

'S e aon bhuannachd gu bheil sgoiltean-àraich air an cur suas le cuid dhe na roinnean agus 's e buannachd mhòr a tha sin. 'S e an trioblaid bho ar taobhne gun tug sinne na buidhnean seachad agus glè thric nuair a chluinneas tu bho roinnean gu bheil iad a' fosgladh mòran sgoiltean-àraich Ghàidhlig, chan eil iad air feadhainn ùra fhosgladh, dìreach an fheadhainn a bh' ann. Tha sin a' cur rud beag de dh'uallach oirnn air sgàth nach eil sinn a' faicinn leasachaidh agus adhartais mar bu chòir a thaobh ar cànain.

'S e a' phrìomh aois a tha a' tighinn a-steach air a' ghnothaich, a th' againn an-dràsda air tìr-mòr, 's e clann eadar mìos a dh'aois agus trì bliadhna. Chun a-seo bha sinn ag obair eadar mìos agus còig bliadhna ach le na sgoiltean-àraich ùra a' tighinn a-steach tha sinn air trì chairteal dhen chloinn eadar trì 's a còig a thoirt seachad dha na roinnean ionadail. Tha buannachd mhòr, mhòr ann ann an iomadach seòrsa dòigh.

Aig an fhìor àm seo tha e a' toirt timcheall air 2,000 uair a thìde a bhith a' toirt leanaibh gun Ghàidhlig gu bruidhinn na Gàidhlig gu fileanta. Nis, tha fhios 'am gu bheil sibh ag obair a thaobh foghlaim anns an fharsaingeachd agus a thaobh cànain mar Fraingis is Gearmailtis, dh'iarrainn oirbh a-rèisd smaoineachadh air buaidh modhan teagaisg, chan e mhàin a thaobh na Gàidhlig ach a thaobh cànanan eile. Tha a h-uile dùil againn, air a' bhliadhna a tha romhainn, gun geàrr sinn sios na h-uairean a thìde bho 2,000 uair a thìde gu 1,000 uair a thìde a thaobh an ùine a tha e a' toirt clann a thoirt gu bruidhinn na Gàidhlig. 'S e modhan ùra a tha seo a bhios feumail, chan e mhàin anns an dùthaich seo, ach air feadh an t-saoghail. Tha buannachd againne a thaobh cànain ri cloinn fo aois sgoile a' bualadh, chan e mhàin air an dùthaich againne, ach air a h-uile dùthaich.

Tha sinn cuideachd an dòchas, thairis air na còig bliadhna a tha romhainn, gu bhith a' cur a' mhòr-chuid dhen chloinn dhan sgoil-àraich aig trì bliadhna, a' bruidhinn Gàidhlig, ged a tha iad a' tighinn bho dhachaighean gun Ghàidhlig idir. Tha modhan sònraichte againn nach eil idir ann an dùthchannan eile, mar a chanas sinn anns a' Bheurla, "We're at the cutting edge", ach 's e an rud is tàmailtiche a th' againne builleach glè thric nach eil fhios aig foghlam neo Alba agus na daoine a tha ag obair a thaobh foghlaim gu bheil leithid a rud a' tachart.

A' tilleadh chun na h-achd a tha seo, bu mhiann leamsa gum biodh Beurla mar chànan air a h-ainmeachadh anns an achd. Bu mhiann leam cuideachd gum biodh Gàidhlig air a h-ainmeachadh anns an achd airson tha e mì-nàdarrach a bhith a' cur gnothaich air adhart, achd neo bile, gun a bhith ag ainmeachadh dè na cànanan air a bheil thu ag obair, gu h-àraidh agus sinn anns an Roinn Eòrpa an-diugh. Tha mise an dòchas anns na bliadhnaichean a tha romhainn, chan e mhàin gum bithear a' teagasg tro mheadhan na Gàidhlig agus tro mheadhan na Beurla, ach gum bithear a' teagasg tro Spàintis agus Gearmailtis agus tron h-uile cànan eile.

'B e an trioblaid bu mhotha, 's dòcha, nuair a bha achd Pàrlamaid ann ann an 1872, an achd a bha cho cudromach a thaobh foghlaim ann an Alba, nach deach Gàidhlig ainmeachadh. Dè thachair às dèidh sin? Bha sgoiltean Gàidhlig ann aig an àm agus chaidh a' chànan a mùthchadh, a marbhadh air sgàth is nach robh i air a h-ainmeachadh. Bho ar taobhne, gu seachd àraidh, tha e glè chudromach. The e, cha mhòr, a' toirt seallaidh dhuinn air inntinnean nan daoine a tha ag obair a thaobh foghlaim ann an Alba air dè dha-rìribh a tha iad a' smaoineachadh.

'S e an dàrna aobhar airson gu bheil sinn ag iarraidh gum bi Gàidhlig air a h-ainmeachadh, agus Beurla, an dà chuid air an ainmeachadh a thaobh a' bhile, 's e gu bheil iomadach oifigear anns na roinnean ionadail a tha fada an aghaidh na Gàidhlig. Tha sinn dhan coinneachadh bho sheachdainn gu seachdainn. Chan eil sin a' tachairt, mar is trice, aig a' cheann shuas. 'S ann tha fiosrachadh agus foghlam is ionnsachadh a' tighinn thuca ach nan dèigheadh a h-ainmeachadh cha b' urrainn dha na h-oifigearan a tha ag obair aig na roinnean ionadail a ràdh, "Chan eil taobh aig a-seo ri Gàidhlig. Cha robh Gàidhlig air a h-ainmeachadh a thaobh sgoiltean-àraich".

Chaidh £250,000 a chomharrachadh, thairis air trì bliadhna, a thaobh sgoiltean-àraich ach nuair a thèid thu a bhruidhinn ris na h-oifigearan anns na roinnean canaidh iad, "Cha robh Gàidhlig air a h-ainmeachadh, chan eil seo a' tighinn a-steach a thaobh na Gàidhlig. Feumaidh sinn fuireach gus am faigh sinn rudeigin sgrìobhte a thaobh na Gàidhlig." Air an aobhar sin, bho bhith ag obair leis na h-oifigearan agus na roinnean, agus tha iomadh roinn ann far a bheil oifigearan a tha gu math bàidheal a thaobh na cànain, chan e na h-oifigearan sin a tha a' cur dragh oirnn, ach na h-oifigearan anns na roinnean a tha ag ràdh, "Chan eil Gàidhlig air a h-ainmeachadh agus nam biodh i cudromach bhiodh i air a h-ainmeachadh." Leis a-sin, chan e mhàin gu bheil e cudromach gun tèid Gàidhlig a h-ainmeachadh agus gun tèid Beurla a h-ainmeachadh cuideachd, a thaobh cloinn fo aois sgoile, ach tha e cudromach aig gach ìre oir chan eil slat tomhais idir againn a thaobh nan cànanan agus an dòigh teagaisg a th' ann.

Chan eil sinn idir a' bruidhinn dìreach air a bhith cur air adhart cànain. Tha sinn a' bruidhinn air foghlam tron chànain sin. Ma tha leanabh ann an sgoil ag obair a thaobh matamataics tro mheadhan na Gàidhlig, 's e foghlam a th' ann. Ma tha thu ag obair a thaobh eachdraidh, ma tha thu ag obair a thaobh eòlas-dùthcha, ma tha thu ag obair a thaobh a h-uile cuspair a th' agad tro mheadhan na Gàidhlig, 's e foghlam a th' ann. Tha thu a' toirt a-steach fiosrachaidh, tha thu a' cnuasachadh agus tha thu an uairsin ga thoirt seachad do dhaoine eile. 'S e foghlam a th' ann. Chan e cuspair. Sin a dh'iarrainn a chur air adhart.

I am Fionnlagh MacLeod. I work with Comhairle Nan Sgoiltean Araich, the Gaelic Playgroups Association. We are a national organisation, working throughout Scotland. CNSA was established 20 years ago. At that time, there were only four pre-school Gaelic groups, but in the past 20 years that number has risen dramatically to 140 groups that cater for more than 2,500 children.

Over the years there have been many changes to Gaelic pre-school education, as to pre-school education in general. Most of them have been excellent, although some have not been so good; with every good change comes a bad change. One of the positive changes has been that local authorities now establish pre-school groups, which is excellent. However, the problem is that we have passed groups on to local authorities that are not so keen to open Gaelic pre-school groups. They have not created any new groups; they have simply taken over the ones that we had established. That worries us, as we do not recognise the kind of development that we would like, and the language does not gain any advantage from it.

We look after children between the ages of one month and three years on the mainland of Scotland. Until now, we were working with children aged between one month and five years, but we have lost three quarters of the children between the ages of three and five to the new nurseries that have been established by local authorities.

It takes more than 2,000 hours to bring a child who does not speak Gaelic to fluency in the language. I know that you are talking about education in general, and languages such as French and German. I ask you to think about the way in which languages are taught—not just Gaelic, but other languages besides. In the next year, we expect that we will reduce the number of hours that it takes to learn Gaelic from 2,000 to 1,000, so that more children will be fluent in Gaelic. New teaching methods will be useful not only in this country, but all over the world, and we have an advantage in that the children speak Gaelic before they go to school. We hope that children who enter nursery schools at the age of three, even if they come from non-Gaelic speaking homes, will be fluent in Gaelic, through the use of teaching methods that are not used elsewhere. As we say in English, we are at the cutting edge, and those who work in education elsewhere in Scotland do not know of the methods that we are using to help children to become fluent Gaelic speakers.

We would like English to be mentioned in the bill. We would also like Gaelic to be mentioned in the bill. It is unnatural to publish a bill of this sort without mentioning the languages with which we are working, especially as we are now part of Europe. I hope that in the years to come we will teach not only through English and Gaelic, but through Spanish, German and other languages. The biggest problem that we have is that the Education (Scotland) Act 1872 did not mention Gaelic. What happened after that? There were Gaelic schools at that time, but the Gaelic was quashed and practically killed because it was not mentioned in the act. From our perspective, it is very important that this bill should look into the minds of people who are working in education in Scotland.

There is another reason that we want Gaelic and English to be mentioned. We know that many officers who work in local authorities are against the Gaelic language; we meet them week after week. That does not happen higher up, where people have access to education and learning. If Gaelic were mentioned in the bill, officers who work at local authority level would not be able to say that their authority has nothing to do with Gaelic because they do not have it in their nursery schools. Some £250,000 was allocated to nursery schools but, when we speak to officers in local authorities, they can say that Gaelic is not mentioned in legislation, that it does not come into their work and that they need something in writing about Gaelic.

I have worked with officers in the local authorities and with councils. We do not worry about those officers who are supportive of the language, but we worry about those who are opposed to it and who would say, "If Gaelic is so important, why is it not mentioned in the bill?" It is important not only for pre-school children but for children at every other level that Gaelic should be mentioned in the bill. If it is not mentioned, we will not have the right to have a say in teaching methods and how we promote the language.

We are talking about education through the language. If a child works at mathematics through Gaelic, that is education. If children do history, geography or any other subject through the medium of Gaelic, they are learning, taking in information, thinking for themselves and passing on that information. It is all education. It is not just a subject. That is the view that I want to promote at this meeting.

Thank you. I open the floor to questions from members of the committee. I remind members that the witnesses have graciously agreed to take questions in English, if that is how you wish to put them.

Thank you for coming. Before I start, I should declare an interest: my father is chairman of Sabhal Mòr Ostaig, the Gaelic college.

I was very interested to hear the arguments. We all agree that securing legal status for Gaelic is vital for its continuance. One thing that you did not mention is the lessons that can be learned from what is happening in Wales. What do you think we can learn from what has been done in Wales to promote the Welsh language?

There have been few advantages in working for the development of Gaelic over the past 15 to 20 years, principally because the number of Gaelic speakers in Scotland is at a dangerously low level. We have little time in which to win this battle or to lose it completely. We probably have between 20 and 30 years in which to turn the situation around. That is why all issues such as education and broadcasting are so important to us, and why we have to address all of them simultaneously.

Bha mi air tionndadh gu Beurla gun fhiosda dhomh fhèin. Tha e a' sealltainn mar a tha an saoghal anns a bheil sinn beò a' toirt buaidh orm.

Dè dh'ionnsaich sinn bhon Chuimrigh? Dh'ionnsaich sinn gum feum àite sònraichte a thoirt dha foghlam agus tha mi a' smaoineachadh gur dòcha gur e an t-amas a tha romhainn, a' phrìomh amas a tha romhainn, a thaobh suidheachadh na Gàidhlig, gum faigh sinn co-ionnanachd dhan chànain le Beurla mar a tha eadar Cuimris agus Beurla anns a' Chuimrigh. 'S e sin is coireach gu bheil sinn ag iarraidh gun tèid Gàidhlig a h-ainmeachadh anns a' bhile foghlaim seo. 'S e sin fear dhe na bunaitean a th' anns an amas a th' againn airson inbhe thèarainte cuideachd.

Ged a tha iad air suidheachadh na Cuimris a neartachadh, gu sònraichte dà achd Pàrlamaid, tha fhathast obair mhòr aca ga dhèanamh a thaobh a bhith màrgaideachd na cànain agus a' brosnachadh na cànain aig ìre na coimhearsnachd. 'S e obair a tha sin cha mhòr nach deachaidh fiù 's toiseach tòiseachaidh a dhèanamh oirre ann an Alba. Tha na buidhnean saor-thoileach uile an sàs ann ach 's e pàirt dhen trioblaid a th' ann, agus feumaidh sibh seo a thuigsinn gu sònraichte, mura bheil a' choimhearsnachd a' faicinn gu bheil inbhe dha thoirt dhan chànain, mura bheil iad a' faicinn gu bheil àite sònraichte agus leantainneachd dha thoirt dha rudeigin mar foghlam tro mheadhan na Gàidhlig, chan urrainn dhaibh gu siorraidh creideas a bhith aca gu bheil e dol a leantainn. Ma tha sinn ag iarraidh air pàrantan an cuid-chlionne a chur taobh foghlam tro mheadhan na Gàidhlig agus gun chinnt aca gu bheil seo dol a mhairsinn, cuimhnichibh, tha foghlam tro mheadhan na Gàidhlig an-dràsda an crochadh air deagh rùn chomhairlean.

Chan eil còir aig pàrantan air agus tha sinne aig toiseach linn ùr ann an Alba le Pàrlamaid ùir sa h-uile càil eile as a bheil sinn cho moiteal agus a dh'aindheoin sin chan eil a' chòir bhunaiteach seo aig pàrantan a thaobh an cànain fhèin nan dùthaich fhèin. Tha cothrom agaibhse sin a chur ceart neo, co-dhiù, ceum a ghabhail air an t-slighe leis a' bhile seo.

I spoke English almost without thinking there. It shows how the world we live in has affected me that I spoke English quite naturally.

What have we learned from the Welsh? We have learned that we should give education an important place. Our main objective with regard to Gaelic is that the language should have equality with English, in the same way that Welsh and English are equal in Wales. That is why we want Gaelic to be mentioned in the education bill. That is one of our main aims with regard to secure status.

Although the Welsh situation has been greatly strengthened by two parliamentary acts, there is still a great deal of work to be done to market and to promote the language at community level. We have hardly started on that in Scotland. Many voluntary organisations support community involvement. We have to understand the problem, part of which is that if the community considers that the language is not getting the recognition that it should, and that there is no continuity with regard to Gaelic-medium education, the system will never have any credibility. We want parents to send their children through Gaelic-medium education, yet they are unsure whether the system will continue.

Remember that Gaelic-medium education relies very much on the good will of the councils. We are proud of what has happened until now but, despite that, we still do not have the fundamental legal right for people to learn through their own language in their own country. You have an opportunity to reverse that situation or at least to take a step towards reversing it.

Dh'fhaighnich sibh dè a' bhuannachd a thàinig às a' Chuimrigh. Saoilidh mi gur e a' bhuannachd is motha a thàinig às a' Chuimrigh gu bheil foghlam na bhunait oir tha sin a' toirt misneachd is cothrom do dhaoine, chan e mhàin a' chànan ionnsachadh ach, cuideachd, a bhith siùbhlach is fileanta agus air dòigh a thaobh a bhith ga sgrìobhadh 's ga leughadh agus ga cur gu feum ann an dòigh beatha.

'S e an rud a tha eadar-dhealaichte, 's dòcha, a thaobh Gàidhlig seach cuid de chànanan eile gu bheil thu a' bruidhinn air dòigh-beatha. Tha an cànan ann, chan e mar fhrith-chànan, ach mar chànan is urrainn a bhith air fhidhe staigh air a h-uile pàirt de bheatha bhon chiad mhionaid a dh'èireas tu anns a' mhadainn chun a' mhionaid mu dheireadh a thèid thu dhan leabaidh air an oidhche. 'S urrainn dhut a bhith air do chuairteachadh leis a' chànain sin agus a cur gu feum. Leis a sin, chan e frith-chànan a th' ann ach cànan a tha a' cuairteachadh a h-uile càil.

Dh'fhaighnich thu dè a dh'ionnsaich sinn às a' Chuimrigh. Dh'ionnsaich sinn tòrr mu na trioblaidean aca agus thug e dhuinn cothrom sealltainn air dè na rudan nach bu chòir dhuinn a dhèanamh, dè na rudan a b' urrainn dhuinn a dhèanamh agus dè na rudan a th' againn ri dhèanamh an-dràsda. Mar eisimpleir, tha foghlam cudromach, am bunait is motha th' ann, ach chan e an aon chuspair a th' ann. Tha thu a' bruidhinn air coimhearsnachd, tha thu a' bruidhinn air craoladh agus tha thu a' bruidhinn air a h-uile nì eile.

Dh'iarrainnsa gluasad air falbh 'on Chuimrigh ann an dòigh airson sealltainn ri dùthchannan mar na Bascaich aig a bheil cànan gu tur eadar-dhealaichte bho Spàintis, dìreach mar a tha Gàidhlig agus Beurla anns an dùthaich seo. 'S e an rud a tha iadsan a' dèanamh an-dràsda, tha iad a' cur 500 neach-teagaisg a bha ag obair ann an Spàintis tro chùrsaichean bliadhna neo dà bhliadhna agus tha an Riaghaltas agus an Roinn Eòrpa a' pàigheadh airson is gun ionnsaich iad na cànain ùra agus chan e mhàin gun ionnsaich iad cànan ùr ach gun ionnsaich iad na modhan ùra, oir feumaidh tu na modhan ùra a thaobh a bhith teagasg tro mheadhan na Basc an àite na Spàintis.

Feumaidh tu modhan ùra agus tha thu ag ionnsachadh, thairis air bliadhna neo dhà an cànan anns a' chiad dol-a-mach, agus an uairsin às deidh dà bhliadhna aig a' char is fhaide tha 500 tidsear ùr agad. Nis, tha sinn uile air a bhith a' caoidh nach eil gu leòr thidsearan ann. Tha iomadach freagairt a-muigh air crìochan na dùthcha seo. Tha mòran dhùthchannan air a dhol tro na h-aon thrioblaidean sa tha againne an-dràsda agus, leis a sin, ma tha thu ag iarraidh freagairt a thaobh gainnead thidsearan, tha againn ri sealltainn ris an t-suidheachadh am measg nam Bascach.

Ma thu ag iarraidh sealltainn a thaobh curraicealam, mar eisimpleir, tha trioblaid againn a thaobh cloinne fo aois sgoile agus an curraicealam a th' ann an-dràsda ann an Gàidhlig air sgàth is gur e curraicealam a th' ann a tha a' bualaldh air a' chiad chànain. Tha iad air an curraicealam eadar-theangachadh bho Bheurla gu Gàidhlig. Tha sin furasda gu leòr a thaobh cloinn aig a bheil i bho thùs ach chan eil i idir freagarach airson cloinn aig nach eil i a' tighinn a-steach. Chan urrainn dhut pàirt dhen a' churraicealam a dhèanamh gus am bi a' chlann fhèin a' bruidhinn na cànain agus, leis a sin, 's urrainn dhaibh ionnsachadh bho dhùthchannan, mar eisimpleir Canada far a bheil dà sheòrsa sgoil ann, dà sheòrsa curraicealam ann a thaobh Frangais, curraicealam ann airson na cloinne aig a bheil i fo thùs agus curraicealam eile ann airson cloinne a tha ga h-ionnsachadh. Tha trioblaidean a' togail a thaobh gnothaichean mar sin ann an Alba fhèin an-dràdsa ged nach eil sinn a' faighinn èisdeachd air sgàth is gu bheil iad ag ràdh, "Seo an curraicealam." Chan eil èisdeachd ga thoirt seachad a thaobh gum feumar sealltainn ri curraicealam ann an dòigh eile. 'S urrainn dhuinn ionnsachadh bho iomadach dùthaich.

You asked what we have learned from the Welsh situation. The greatest advantage is that language is fundamental. Not only do they have the opportunity to learn the language but they are able to become fluent at reading and writing the language and using it in everyday situations. The main difference with Gaelic and similar languages is that we are talking about a lifestyle. The language is there; it is not just a second language. It can be used in every aspect of our daily lives from the moment we rise in the morning to the moment we go to bed at night. People can be surrounded by that language and can use it.

We learned from Wales about the problems that it had, which showed us what we should not do, what we could do and what we now have to do. For example, education is fundamentally important but it is not the only subject. We are speaking about community and broadcasting.

However, I would like to move away from the Welsh situation to consider other countries, such as the Basque country. The Basques have a very different language from Spanish, just as Gaelic and English are very different. The Basque country is putting 500 Spanish-speaking teachers on a two-year course. The Government and Europe are paying for those teachers to learn the new language, its idioms and so on, in order to teach through the medium of Basque rather than Spanish.

Initially, the teachers learn the language and after two years they are ready to teach—there will be 500 new teachers. We are all complaining about the fact that there are not enough teachers. Many countries have experienced the same problems as we now face. If we want answers to the question of teacher supply, we must consider the situation in the Basque country.

We have problems with the current education curriculum for pre-school children. It is a curriculum for children who speak Gaelic as their first language. That is okay for children who already speak Gaelic, but it is not at all suitable for those children who do not. We cannot teach part of the curriculum until the children speak the language. We can learn from other countries, such as Canada, where there are two types of schools with two different curricula: one for those who already speak French and another for those who are learning. There are problems in Scotland, although until now we have not had a proper hearing. "This is the curriculum" is all we hear. Nobody is listening. We have to look at the curriculum in another way. There are many cultures from which we can learn.

Tha mi a' smaoineachadh ann a bhith a' dèanamh coimeis eadar Alba agus a' Chuimrigh gu bheil na trì cinn a tha seo ag èirigh an còmhnaidh. 'S e sin còirichean, co-ionnanachd agus leantainneachd. Tha sin acasan agus chan eil againne. Carson nach biodh? Tha e cudromach gum biodh còirichean aig pàrantan airson foghlaim Gàidhlig fhaighinn dhan cuid-cloinne far a bheil iarrtas air a shon. Ann a bhith sealltainn ri co-ionnanachd, tha iad ag obair anns na sgoiltean air an aon churraicealam agus a tha clann na Beurla. Tha iad a' dèanamh sgrìobhaidh is leughaidh is còmhraidh is gach cuspair eile ann am foghlam ach a-mhàin ann an cànan eadar-dhealaichte.

A bharrachd air a sin, tha iad a' faighinn buannachdan dà-chànanais a-mach às a seo agus tha obair rannsachaidh a' sealltainn gu bheil, a bharrachd air a sin, gu bheil buannachdan sònraichte foghlaim ag èirigh bho bhith a' faighinn foghlam ann am mion-chànan mar seo. Ann an leantainneachd, tha e cudromach, mar a thuirt Ailean, gum bi dùil nuair a thèid clann dhan an sgoil gu bheil iad a' dol a-steach a shiostam a bheir dhaibh leantainneachd ann am foghlam. Mar sin, sin na h-atharraichidhean a tha mise a' faicinn eadar sinne agus a' Chuimrigh agus tha mi a' smaoineachadh gum biodh e air leth iomchaidh dhuinn a bhith a' sealltainn ri còirichean, co-ionnanachd agus leantainneachd ann am foghlam Gàidhlig.

In comparing Scotland to Wales, we can consider three headings: rights, equality and continuity. Wales has all those things and we do not. It is very important that parents have rights to have Gaelic education for their children where the demand exists. In terms of equality, the Gaelic-medium pupils follow the same curriculum as English-medium pupils; they are writing, reading and speaking and doing all the other subjects as English-medium pupils. Apart from the fact that they are learning in a different language, the curriculum is just the same.

There are other advantages for children who are bilingual. Research has shown that there are educational advantages in receiving education in a minority language. As Allan Campbell said, it is important that when children go to school they enter a system that will provide continuity of education. Those are the differences between Scotland and Wales. It is important that we consider the issues of equality and continuity with regard to Gaelic education.

A Mhairi, tha mi glè thoilichte gu bheil na comunnan aig a bheil uidh anns a Ghàidhlig còmhla riunn an diugh. Feumaidh mi bruidhinn anns a' Bheurla, tha eagal orm.

Mary, I am very pleased that people from the Gaelic organisations are with us today. Unfortunately I must pose my questions in English.

Although unfortunately I must pose my questions in English, I am sure that that will not inhibit Allan and his colleagues from continuing to reply in Gaelic, which I welcome.

As we are considering legislation at this meeting, we must focus on clear questions for the witnesses. With the convener's permission, I will ask three clear questions.

I have received letters supporting an amendment at this stage from a range of organisations, including local authorities, such as the Highland Council, Argyll and Bute Council, the Western Isles Council, Comann an Luchd-Ionnsachaidh, Sabhal Mòr Ostaig, your organisations and others. It might be appropriate for Allan Campbell to respond to my first question. Are you aware of any organisation involved with Gaelic that has considered this live issue and finds itself against the idea that the Standards in Scotland's Schools etc Bill should mention Gaelic?

Chan eil mi smaoineachadh gun urrainn sin a bhith oir tha na buidhnean a tha strì airson na Gàidhlig a' strì airson, mar a bha mi a' ràdh na bu tràithe, airson adhartais aig a h-uile ìre dhan a' chànan, chan eil ùine againn feitheamh airson a' chòrr. Tha sin a' ciallachadh gu feum sinn a h-uiile leasachadh 's a h-uile adhartas a ghabhas faotainn fhaotainn cho luath 's a ghabhas. 'S e cothrom sònraichte tha seo ann am bile an fhoghlaim 's chan urrainn dhòmhsa smaoineachadh air buidheann sam bith a bhiodh airson bruidhinn an aghaidh na Gàidhlig oir 's e sin a bhiodh iad a' dèanamh mura biodh iad a' cur taice ris a' Ghàidhlig ainmeachadh sa bhile tha seo.

I do not think that that would be possible. The organisations that are striving for Gaelic are working hard to make progress at every level for the language, as I said. We do not have time to wait for anything else—we must work for every development and every step forward, and we should take action as soon as we can. Gaelic should be part of the Standards in Scotland's Schools etc Bill. I cannot think of any organisation that would be willing to work against Gaelic, because that is what they would be doing if they did not support what we are saying today.

There is an argument that Gaelic-medium education will be dealt with by a bill proposing secure status for Gaelic and that, therefore, there should be no demand to amend this bill—that any such amendment would be premature. Do you find that argument convincing?

Tha mi smaoineachadh gum biodh e ceart agus iomchaidh gum biodh iomradh air foghlam ann am bile a thaobh inbhe thèarainte ach chan eil mi smaoineachadh gu leig sinn a leas feitheamh airson inbhe thèarainte airson cothrom a ghabhail rudeigin a dhèanamh dhan chànain ann am bile an fhoghlaim. 'S e an argamaid a tha sinne air a bhith cur air adhart—le sinne tha mi a' ciallachadh Comunn na Gàidhlig le taic bho na buidhnean eile san fharasaingeachd—tha sinn air a bhith ag argamaid gu bheil còir aig foghlam na Gàidhlig a bhith a' faotainn àite ann an cridhe obair leasachaidh foghlam Alba, chan ann mar rudeigin air leth ach mar phàirt de dh'fhoghlam Alba. "Normalisation", 's e sin am facal a tha sinn a' cleachdadh. Ri linn na h-argamaid a tha sin, saoilidh mi gur e cothrom sònraichte a dhèigheadh a chall dhan chànain mura biodh Gàidhlig a' faotainn àite sonraichte a thaobh a h-ainmeachadh sa bhile tha seo.

It would be right for education to be included in a bill for the secure status of Gaelic, but I do not think that we should have to wait for such a bill in order to take advantage of the situation and to do something for the language in the Standards in Scotland's Schools etc Bill. Comunn na Gàidhlig has argued, with support from other Gaelic organisations, that Gaelic-medium education should be given a place at the heart of the educational development of Scotland. It should not be treated as a separate issue, but as part of English, mainstream education in Scotland. We want Gaelic to be treated as a normal part of the education system. It would be a loss if Gaelic were not given a place in this bill.

That is a very important answer. Fionnlagh MacLeod referred to the failure to include Gaelic in the 1872 act; from an historical perspective, there is no doubt that that failure damaged the language substantially. Today, we are saying that that mistake should not be repeated.

I will move on to my second point. If there is universal agreement that there should be an amendment to the bill—and I believe that such agreement exists—before we consider what should be in that amendment, we must consider what it should achieve. I would like to hear views from each of the witnesses about what they think that amendment should target.

Tha mi smaoineachadh gur e rud as cudromaiche leis na tha seo gur e tèarainteachd dha siostam foghlaim na Gàidhlig—rud nach eil ann an-dràsda. Ma bheir atharrachadh sa bhile sin seachad dha pàrantan 's dhan cloinn tha e nise na bhunait airson a dhol air adhart. Ma tha tèarainteachd ann thig adhartas mòr ri linn sin.

The most important issue is security for the Gaelic-medium education system, which we do not have at present. Amending the bill for parents and children would give us a foundation on which to make progress. If we have security, we will make great progress.

An amendment that was not properly drafted, or was drafted too widely, might stir up a hornet's nest in terms of financial commitments from local authorities. The Executive has mentioned that issue before. How could security be given without an open-ended financial commitment also being given? The Executive is, to be fair, making a substantial commitment by including Gaelic in its priorities.

Chan eil sinne airson foghlam Gàidhlig a sparradh air duine—tha e saor-thoileach. 'S e tha sinne ag ràdh far a bheil iarrtas reusanta air a shon gum bu chòir taic dhan sin a bhith stèidhichte sa lagh, rud nach eil an-dràsda, 's tha sin ga fhàgail gu saor-thoileach. Chan eil e dha fhàgail cho fosgailte, saoilidh mi, 's gum biodh uallach mì-nàdarrach air ùghdarrasan ionadail ri linn.

We do not want to force Gaelic education on anybody—the system is voluntary. Where there is a reasonable request for Gaelic-medium education, that should be supported. That should be part of the law, which is not the case at the moment. The system is voluntary, but we do not want it to be so open-ended that local authorities are left with a problem.

Tha mi samoineachadh gu bheil e uamhasach cudromach gum biodh sibh a' tuigsinn gu bheil sinne, a tha sàs ann an obair leasachaidh na Gàidhlig, a' tighinn thugaibh ann an dòighean agus le beachdan cho proifeiseanta agus cho ciallach agus a ghabhas. Bha uair a bha sinn a' cur feum air, mar a tha a h-uile iomairt eile, tomhais de "loony fringe", mar thuirt iad, ach tha mi smaoineachadh gu bheil sinn a-niste bèo ann an saoghal far a bheil sinn a' dèanamh adhartais ri linn proifeiseantachd agus argamaidean tha ciallach agus, ann a bhith dèanamh argamaidean dhen t-seòrsa sin, tha sinn a' faithneachadh nach eil an sporan cho farsaing sa rùnaicheamaid.

Aig an aon àm tha sibhse mar Riaghaltas agus mar phàrtaidhean poilitigeach fa leth air gealladh a thoirt dhuinn gu bheil sibh airson gum bi a' chànan tha seo buan mar phàirt de dh'eachdraidh agus de dhualchas Alba agus ri linn a' gheallaidh a tha sin tha sibh cuideachd a' tuigsinn, mar phàrtaidhean, nach gabh sin dèanamh gun airgead a chur an sàs ann.

Niste, chan eil sinne a' ràdh gur e airgead bunait a h-uile càil—feumaidh sibh àite a thoirt dhan chànain tha seo agus còirichean a thoirt dhith fon lagh, ach feumaidh sibh cuideachd airgead reusanta chur ma coinneimh agus chan eil sinne dol a dhèanamh an seòrsa adhartais a tha sinn ag iarraidh as aonais sporan a tha beagan nas fiallaidhe na tha an sporan an-dràsda. A dh'aindheoin an deilbh a gheibh sibh gu math tric sna meadhanan gu bheil sinne ann an saoghal na Gàidhlig a' dol fodha le airgead chan eil sin fìor Tha feum againn air an tuilleadh maoineachaidh ach 's e an rud a bheireadh a' Ghàidhlig dhuinn le bhith air a h-ainmeachadh san achd tha seo, mar a chaidh ainmeachadh na bu tràithe, bheir e co-ionnanachad cothrom do phàrantan a tha ag iarraidh foghlam tro mheadhan na Gàidhlig—equality of opportunity.

Niste, tha sin gu math bunaiteach anns na geallaidhean a tha sibh uile a' toirt seachad. Tha e a' ciallachadh gum bi an achd tha seo a' fàgail air comhairlean ionadail gu feum iad èisdeachd ri pàrantan 's nach fhaod iad cùl a chur ri pàrantan far a bheil iarrtas reusanta ann. Thèid tòrr a ràdh mu ghainnead luchd-teagaisg agus àireamhan beaga ann an foghlam tro mheadhan na Gàidhlig agus canaidh cuid ribh bu bheil an dà rud tha sin, an toiseach gu bheil cho beag a chloinn ann am foghlam tro mheadhan na Gàidhlig a dh'aindheoin a h-uile adhartas, gu bheil sin na aobhar gun an còrr leasachadh a dhèanamh, agus cuideachd gu bheil gainnead luchd-teagaisg na aobhar gun an còrr leasachadh a dhèanamh.

Niste, 's e chanainnse ribh ma bheir sibhse stèidh oifigeil agus taic laghail do dh'fhoghlam tro mheadhan na Gàidhlig, mar a thuirt pàrant a bha aig coinneimh poblach a bha againn ann an Glaschu, "Gabhaidh fada bharrachd phàrantan cothrom an uairsin air a' ghoireas a tha seo na tha deònach a dhol a shabaid air a shon an-dràsda"—more will take advantage than are prepared to fight for it.

Sin a thuirt i agus gun teagamh tha e fìor agus cuideachd aon uair 's gu bheil foghlam tro mheadhan na Gàidhlig mar rudeigin tha stèidhichte gu nàiseanta fon lagh, bidh fada, fada bharrachd luchd-teagaisg deònach a dhol an taobh sin agus iad a' faicinn cothrom air an t-slighe a dhèanamh le beò-shlàint tro mheadhan na Gàidhlig fad am beatha—beò-shlaint phroifeiseanta agus tha a h-uile càil a tha sin a' crochadh ri chèile.

It is extremely important that members understand that those of us who are involved in Gaelic development have come to the committee holding professional and informed views. There was a time when—as with every initiative such as ours—there was a loony fringe, but we are in a world in which we are making progress with professional and informed arguments. The purse is not as kind as we would hope, but we want the language to progress and to be a strong part of the Scottish political scene. Government and political parties must understand that that cannot be achieved without money.

We are not saying that money is the foundation of everything, but we need to give Gaelic a place and to give it rights within the law. We must, however, have a reasonable amount of money to enable us to do that. We will not be able to progress as we would wish without a better purse than we have. The media portrays us as people who are sinking under the weight of money, but that is not true—we need a lot more funding.

If Gaelic is included in the bill, that would give equality of opportunity to parents who are looking for Gaelic-medium education throughout Scotland. An act that included Gaelic would make local authorities listen to parents. Authorities would not be able to turn their back on reasonable demands for Gaelic-medium education. A lot will be said about the lack of teachers and the small number of pupils in Gaelic-medium education. Some will say, first, that the fact that there are so few children in such education—despite the progress that has been made—is a reason for there to be no new progress or development. The fact that there are so few teachers is also given as a reason for making no further progress.

As a parent pointed out at a recent public meeting in Glasgow, if Gaelic-medium education is given secure status, more parents will take advantage of the system than are willing to fight for it at the moment. That is, without a doubt, true. Once Gaelic-medium education is secure within the law, a lot more teachers will come in to the system because there will be opportunities to make a living from Gaelic-medium education. All those things hang together.

Bha thu faighneachd dè na rudan a dh'iarradh sinn a thoirt à bile foghlaim. Saoilidh mi gu bheil againn ri tòiseachadh a' smaoineachadh air dhà na thrì rudan an toiseach. A thaobh àireamhan de chloinn a tha air am breith an an Alba, tha na h-àireamhan air a dhol sìos fo 70,000, ochd bliadhna deug air ais, gu nas lugha na 60,000 an-diugh, lùghdachadh thairis air na bliadhnaichean de 10,000. Tha e air a bhith a' dol sìos 500 no 800 no 1,000 no 1,500 gach bliadhna.

Aig a' cheart àm tha sinn a' cluinntinn gu bheil foghlam, foghlam, foghlam againn ach tha airgead, airgead, airgead, airgead cuideachd a' dol a-steach a thaobh foghlaim agus aon dhe na rudan a bha gu math snog is brèagha bho chionn ghoirid—nuair a chuir am Prìomhaire 100,000,000 a thaobh foghlaim ann an Alba—cha d'fhuair sinne litrichean sna pàipearan-naidheachd a' gearan uiread de dh'airgead a bhith a' dol taobh na Gàidhlig, rud a tha gu math snog bho ar taobhne.

Tha airgead a' dol a-steach a thaobh foghlaim ann an Alba an-dràsda. Air a' bhliadhna tha romhainn bidh 3 billean agus 600 millean agus rud beag a bharrachd a' dol a thaobh foghlaim ann an Alba gu lèir, dìreach a thaobh na Pàrlamaid seo. A thaobh Gàidhlig agus foghlam tro mheadhan na Gàidhlig, bidh 's dòcha eadar 2.5 millean agus 3 millean uile gu lèir—sin uileas, tha thu a' bruidhinn air tiotain beaga bìodach nuair a smaoinicheas tu air an airgead a tha air a chosg air Gàidhlig an-dràsda.

Ma tha thu faighneachd dè thàthar ag iarraidh a-mach à bile foghlaim, thàthar ag iarraidh dhà na thrì rudan. A' chiad rud tha thu ag iarraidh gum bi Gàidhlig is Beurla aig an aon ìre agus, gun iad a bhith air ainmeachadh as a' bhile, chan eil mi smaoineachadh gun tachair sin a chaoidh, airson daoine a tha a' sealltainn air càil a tha sgrìobhte tighinn bhon a' Phàrlamaid, mur eil Gàidhlig sa bhile sgrìobhte diochuimhnichidh iad mu deidhinn. Sin a' chiad rud.

An dara rud: feumaidh siostam a bhith ann far a bheil airgead sònraichte a' tighinn air adhart mu choinneimh an airgid tha tighinn a-steach do dh'fhoghlam uile gu lèir. Mar as motha de chloinn a tha dol taobh na Gàidhlig anns an sgoil 's ann as motha de dh'airgead a bu chòir a bhith gan leantainn. Bu chòir airgead a bhith leantainn.

You asked what we would want to gain from an education bill. We have to start thinking about a few things. The number of babies born in Scotland each year has decreased from 70,000 to fewer than 60,000 over the past few years. The decrease has been 500 to 800 every year.

We are always talking about education, education, education, but it is also money, money, money. The money that has recently been pumped into education is very nice, but when the Prime Minister came to speak about this matter, although we heard about the financial boost for education in Scotland we never heard anything about the boost to Gaelic education.

Money is going towards education in the year to come: more than £3 billion will be set aside for education during this Parliament, but we might get only £2.5 million to £3 million specifically for Gaelic-medium education. It is such a small amount when we think how much money is currently being spent on Gaelic in general.

If you ask what we want from the bill, we want a few things. The first is for Gaelic and English to be at the same level and to have equality. They should not be discussed as separate entities. People look at the written language coming from the Parliament. If Gaelic is not written into the bill, it will be forgotten about.

Secondly, there has to be a system whereby specific amounts of money are ring-fenced for Gaelic, as is the case for English. That money should continue to be provided.

I think there has been a slight misunderstanding about the work of this committee. It does not allocate resources, which is a matter for the Executive, although it will consider the budget next month.

We have to consider what should be in legislation for education in Scotland. So far, you have indicated that there is universal support and a reflection that the mistake made more than a century ago must be corrected. There is also a sense that the first Scottish education bill in the first Scottish Parliament for 300 years should not neglect to mention Gaelic. We accept what should be achieved, although the supply of teachers is an important issue which I know the Executive is examining.

Given those points, we have to consider what amendments to the bill should be lodged. We have received material from Fionnlagh MacLeod and from John MacLeod, and I know that Allan Campbell has given some thought to this: could each of you say briefly—we are running out of time and I can feel the convener's eye upon me—what amendments you think would be most useful? I am sorry to be technical, but it is important for this to be read into the record so that we know from our reading of the record what you think the amendments should be.

Tha mi smaoineachadh gu bheil trì puingean anns na chur sinn air adhart tha cudromach agus 's e sin an toiseach: far a bheil iarrtas reusanta a' tighinn bho phàrantan gum biodh e mar uallach air ùghdarras ionadail foghlam tro mheadhan na Gàidhlig a thoirt seachad dha pàrantan airson an cuid cloinne. Agus a rithist far a bheil foghlam tro mheadhan na Gàidhlig ri fhaighinn ann an sgoil, gum biodh an t-seirbheis a tha iad a' faighinn agus na goireasan a tha iad a' faighinn aig ìre co-ionnanachd eadar an dà shiostam—nach bi càil a dhìth air foghlam Gàidhlig nach biodh a dhìth air foghlam Beurla. Agus mu dheireadh dìreach mar phrionnsabal ann am bile foghlaim gum biodh càil sam bith a tha sa bhile a tha ag ainmeachadh foghlaim gu bheil sin a' ciallachadh foghlam tron Ghàidhlig a cheart cho math ri foghlam tron Bheurla.

I must raise three important points. First, where there is a reasonable demand from parents, it would be the local authority's responsibility to provide Gaelic-medium education. Secondly, the services and resources to Gaelic-medium education should not lack anything and should be the same as English-medium education. Finally, as a point of principle, any mention of education in the bill should mean Gaelic-medium education as well as English-medium education.

Cha robh sinne air beachdachadh mionaideach a dhèanamh air càit an cuireamaid na faclan a thaobh na Gàidhlig an sàs anns an dreach a th' agaibh dhen bhile ach chanainn ag an ìre seo gun cuireamaid taic ri Comann nam Pàrant is ris na thuirt Iain an-dràsda thoireabh tha an athchuinge a chuir Comann nam Pàrant thugaibh air a bonnachadh air a' phàipear a dheasaich Comunn na Gàidhlig fhèin a thaobh inbhe thèarainte agus mar sin tha sinn a' smaoineachadh gu bheil na molaidhean a tha iad a' cur thugaibh a' dèanamh ciall agus gum biodh iad gu math na Gàidhlig.

Aon rud eile a chanainn mar phàirt dhen fhreagairt dh'iarrainn a chur ris na thuirt mi ris a‘ cheist aig Mgr Russell. 'S e sin, chan eil sinne a-rèir a' phàipeir conaltraidh a tha air nochdadh a thaobh amasan sònraichte, educational priorities agus mar sin air adhart, chan eil sinne faicinn aobhar sam bith, gu dearbh chanamaid gum bu chòir Gàidhlig a bhith air a h-ainmeachadh gu sònraichte anns a' bhile, agus cuideachd a bhith na h-amas sònraichte. Tha sinne smaoineachadh gu bheil a' chànan aig ìre cho lag agus gu feum sin tachairt ma tha i gu bhith buan.

We have not yet thought out the fine detail of using the word "Gaelic" in the bill. However, I want to reiterate and support what John MacLeod has said. As CNP's petition is based on CNG's paper on secure status, its proposals make very good sense and would be for the betterment of the language.

Furthermore, on the consultation paper on education priorities that was recently circulated, we see no reason why Gaelic should neither be mentioned in the bill nor made a priority. If the language is to survive, both possibilities would be useful.

If the two members who have indicated that they wish to speak keep their questions brief, we should get both of them in.

I want to explore the pre-school position a little more. Fionnlagh touched on the point that local authorities' partnerships with pre-school education providers had an impact on the Gaelic pre-school group. Does that provide a good—and recent—example of the fact that a non-statutory basis will always impinge to the detriment of Gaelic education provision? How many Gaelic pre-school playgroups have been able to go into full partnership with local authorities and to continue to provide Gaelic-medium pre-school education?

I was also interested in what was said about the pre-school curriculum—that point had not dawned on me before. I do not know whether members are aware of the extent to which there is a curriculum for pre-school education. If that curriculum is based on English, does it hamper Gaelic-speaking pre-schoolers and other non-English-speaking pre-schoolers? Perhaps we should consider that question.

A' freagairt na ceist a bha agaibh a thaobh a' bhuaidh a bha ann, thàinig e thugainn gu soilleir gun robh cuid dhe na h-ùghdarrasan ionadail cho meaghail air airgead agus nach biodh àite ann dhuinn, gun robh iad ag iarraidh a h-uile sgillinn a dheigheadh tro na crògan a chumail. Tha iad ag ràdh gu bheil iad cho gann de dh'airgead agus thàinig e thugainn gun robh againn ris an aon sheirbheis a chur air adhart airson £850 's a bha iadasan a' cosg £2,000 air mu choinneimh gach leanaibh. Bha againn ri obrachadh a-mach a thaobh buannachd dhan Ghàidhlig an robh e nas fheàrr dìreach na buidhnean againn a thoirt dhaibh agus fhàgail aca na sinne a bhith strì ann an suidheachadh far nach robh airgead gu leòr gu bhith ann, far nach robh taic idir, idir gu bhith ann agus iad ag iarraidh an aon cheann-uidhe, an aon sheirbheis agus seachad air na h-Eileanan an Iar cha mhòr nach tug sinn a h-uile buidheann seachad—cha robh sinn a' faicinn gum b' urrainn dhuinn an cumail—dheigheadh iad a dhìth co-dhiù.

Tha ìomhaigh agus inbhe aig roinnean ionadail nach eil aig buidhnean saor-thoileach—tha airgead, tha taic, taic oifigeran, trèanadh—a h-uile nì ann agus ma tha thusa an crcochadh ri sgillinn no dhà airson an aon sheirbheis a chur air adhart chan urrainn dhut a dhèanamh. A thaobh maith na Gàidhlig thug sinn smuain air a h-uile càil agus thuirt sinne riutha thoireabh leibh iad, cha robh sinn idir, idir, idir a' faicinn gun robh am blas a bha a' tighinn bhuapa a thaobh partnership, bha sinne ann an suidheachadh 's chan urrainn dhomh seo a chur ann an Gàidhlig gu dòigheil ‘We were in a situation of being in a tank with the shark and the goldfish – we were the goldfish agus bha sin anns cha mhòr a h-uile roinn ris na choinnich sinn. 'S leis an sin thug sinn seachad iad. 'S e na h-Eileanan an Iar an aon àite far a bheil cothrom na fèinne ann an-dràsda.

An dàrna puing a bh' agaibh a thaobh a' churraicealam: tha e air tighinn am follais ann an Eirinn agus anns a' Chuimrigh nach urrainn dhut an aon churraicealam a chleachdadh le cloinn a tha fileanta agus a' chànan aca. 'S urrainn dhut an aon churraicealam a chleachdadh le cloinn aig a bheil Beurla 's aig a bheil Gàidhlig gun thrioblaid sam bith ann ach ma tha thusa toirt cloinn a-steach aig trì bliadhna gun facal Gàidhlig aca, gun facal Gàidhlig aig na pàrantan, chan urrainn dhut an aon churraicealam a chleachdadh. Nuair a smaoinicheas tu air aig an ìre seo tha e a' toirt 2,000 uair a thìde clann a thoirt air adhart gu bruidhinn gu, siubhlach, gu fileanta. Mar as trice chan eil iad fileanta gun tèid iad dhan sgoil aig còig bliadhna agus as dèidh na bliadhn' uire. Tha thu a' bruidhinn air dà bhliadhna agus ceithir mìosan gus am bi iad siubhlach, fileanta, agus far an urrainn dhaibh a h-uile càil a lìbhrigeadh ann an Gàidhlig. Chan urrainn an aon churraicealam, chan urrainn mar eisimpleir ceist fhaighneachd do leanabh a tha trì bliadhna gu leth agus air rud beag de Ghàidhlig a chluinntinn a thaobh dè tha iad ag iarraidh a dhèanamh ma tha thu ag obair ann an Gàidhlig fad an t-siubhail. Dè an taghadh a th' ann? Feumaidh curraicealam eadar-dhealaichte a bhith ann agus tha na tidsearan, gach cuid anns na sgoiltean-àraich agus anns na cròileagain a th' againn air fhàgail a' gearan gu dona agus gu dubh ach nuair a leughas tu na pàipearan a thig air ais bhon Riaghaltas, "There were only a few who objected or who put in objections to the curriculum" agus sin uileas tha sgrìobhte, chan eil iad a' seallatinn air gu daingeann dè dha-rìribh a tha air cùl gnothaichean.

You mentioned the effect of the curriculum. It became very clear to me that some local authorities were so stingy that they were not giving it a place; that they wanted to keep every penny on which they got their hands. They say that they are short of money. It became obvious that we had to provide for £850 the same service as they were providing for £2,000. We thought that, instead of fighting without money or support, we would provide our organisations and let them carry out the work. They wanted the same service for less money. Except in the western isles, we thought that we would give all our groups to local authorities. We thought that we could not hold on to them because we did not have the funds. The local authorities have credibility, training and other things that voluntary organisations such as ours do not have. It is impossible to provide the same service for a few pennies.

We have thought of everything for the good of Gaelic. We told them to take the groups. We thought that there was no way that their partnership ideals—I cannot express this articulately in Gaelic so I will switch to English: we were like a goldfish in a tank with a shark. That was true of almost every local authority we met. Therefore we just handed the groups over. The only place where we have an opportunity is the western isles.

Another point about the curriculum is that it has become apparent in Wales and Ireland that one cannot teach the same curriculum to children who are fluent and those who are not. One can use the same curriculum for people who have English and those who have Gaelic, but there is no way that one can give the same curriculum to three-year-olds who have no Gaelic and whose parents have no Gaelic. At that age it takes 2,000 hours for children to learn Gaelic fluently. They then go to school at the age of five. It takes about two years and four months until children are fluent and have no problem making themselves understood. One cannot ask a three-year-old child what they want to do if one speaks Gaelic all the time. There has to be a different curriculum. The teachers in the nurseries and the playgroups complain bitterly. One may read in the Government papers that only a few people objected, but the papers do not examine in detail what lies behind all this.

I can just about get my head around the idea of what the rights that you suggest might mean in the western isles and other areas where there is a large Gaelic-speaking population. I can imagine what the implications might be in Glasgow, where we have the school, and in Edinburgh, where we have the unit. However, what would the implications be for parents of children in St Andrews, Dundee, Aberdeen or Ayr, where children might have to commute to such schools? Would those local authorities have to find a large corps of like-minded parents or would we try to encourage authorities to buy in provision or establish small groups in schools? I am trying to tease out the practicalities in areas where there is not a large enough number of people to make a school viable.

Aon dhe na freagairtean a th' ann a thaobh sin 's e air sgàth is gu bheil sinn a' tòiseachadh buidhnean le pàrantan is clann fo fiù 's mìos a dh'aois gu 3 bliadhna neo gu dà bhliadhna agus an uairsin tha cròileagan ann eadar 2 bhliadhna agus 3 neo eadar 2 bhliadhna agus 4 agus tha sgoil-àraich ann an uairsin. Mus tig iad gu 5 bliadhna mar is trice tha na h-àireamhan ann.

Mar eisimpleir, ann an Obar Dheathain, an rud a tha mi an dòchas a bhios a' tachairt an ath bhliadhna, chan e mhàin gum bi an sgoil-àraich ag obair anns a' mhadainn ach bi i ag obair feasgar. 'S e an rud a th' agad ri dhèanamh, 's e bliadhna neo dhà de dh'ùine a thoirt seachad airson na h-àireamhan a thogail. Mur a bheil duine sam bith ag obair agus a' brosnachadh agus a' cuideachadh nam pàrantan anns an sgìre tachraidh e gu math slaodach. Ma tha cuideigin ann, ma tha neach leasachaidh ann a freagairt ceistean nam pàrantan, mar eisimpleir, aon cheist a bhios a' togail gu math tric, "Dè thachras ma thig an leanabh dhachaigh thugamsa a thaobh obair-sgoile. Dè tha mi dol a dhèanamh?" Chan eil am freagairt sin duilich idir. Tha thu gu bhith ag obair leotha a thaobh na Beurla agus tha thu gu bhith ag iarraidh orra cuideachadh fhaighinn a thaobh na Gàidhlig tron an leanabh fhèin. Tha iomadach seòrsa rud a ghabhas dèanamh ach mar a bheil thu a' toirt nam freagairtean sin seachad tha na pàrantan sin a' falbh agus tha iad ann an ioma-cheist agus cha tèid a' chlann air adhart.

A thaobh àireamhan, tha e cudromach gum bi daoine ag obair ann an sgìre a' freagairt nan ceistean ach 's ann dìreach tro thìde a tha thu a' togail nan àireamhan. Far nach eil duine ag obair anns an sgìre a' cuideachadh nam pàrantan, tha e mòran nas duilghe. Feumaidh sinn aideachadh, tha e mòran nas duilghe ach 's e pàirt dhen an aobhar a bha na grantaichean sònraichte ann, a thug a' bhuidheann agaibh fhèin seachad an toiseach, 's ann airson a' chiad cheum agus airson an dàrna ceum a dhèanamh agus dh'obraich e gu fìor mhath. 'S e an aon trioblaid a th' ann an-diugh gu bheil an t-airgead sin fhathast a' dol dha na h-aon phròiseactan agus chan eil airgead ùr a' tighinn air adhart a thaobh leasachadh a dhèanamh. Ma bha thu a' bruidhinn a thaobh luchd-teagaisg, tha freagairtean ann. Chan eil e idir, idir duilich na freagairtean a' lorg a thaobh barrachd luchd-teagaisg fhaighinn. Tha mi an dòchas gu bheil sin a' freagairt na ceist agaibh.

There are problems in that regard. We have groups for children who are between one month old and two or three years old. We have a playgroup for children aged between three and four years old and a nursery for children who are between three and five years old. There are sufficient numbers of children under the age of five.

I hope that, next year, Aberdeen will have a nursery in the morning and afternoon. There has to be a year or two of sufficiently high numbers. If nobody is working in the area to encourage parents, that growth will not happen. A development officer has to be available to answer parents' questions. Parents often ask what will happen if they are unable to help with the child's homework. They need to be reassured that they will be able to help the child with both English and Gaelic. If those answers are not supplied, parents will be worried about their children and it will be more difficult to increase the numbers.

When your party was in government, Mr Monteith, specific grants were provided to help the first and second stages be achieved. That worked well but, although that money is still available, no new funding for development has been brought forward.

Mas urrainn dhomh a' ràdh, tha sinn a' faicinn anns na bliadhnaichean a chaidh seachad far an do thòisich, mar a chanadh tu, sìol beag. Tha e air fàs. Far an robh àireamhan gu math beag ann an aonadan Gàidhlig air feadh na dùthcha 's dòcha ann an àitichean far nach robh coimhearsnachd Gàidhlig soillear, 's dh'aindheon sin tha na h-àireamhan sin air èirigh gu ìre mhòr ann a dhà na thrì bhliadhnaichean.

Tha e duilich a ràdh gu bheil foghlam Gàidhlig iomchaidh ann an àite mar seo agus nach eil ann an àite mar siud. Chan eil e cho furasda sin agus aig aon taobh dhen loidhne tha àitichean 's dòcha mar Dhun Deagh neo Fiobha, àitichean far an suilicheadh tu nach eil mòran Gàidhlig ga cleachdadh, ach aig ìre eile tha àitichean iomlach far a bheil glè bheag de chloinn ann an sgìre. 'S dòcha nach eil ach còignear a' tighinn a-steach dhan sgoil agus ma tha an coignear sin ag iarraidh foghlam tro mheadhan na Gàidhlig carson nach fhaigheadh iad sin? Saoilidh mi gu bheil e cudromach gum biodh na còirichean sin aig pàrantan agus tha e an urra ri dè a tha iarrtas reusanta a' ciallachadh anns gach sgìre.

There was a small number of pupils in Gaelic-medium units throughout the country in places where there might not be an obvious Gaelic community. The numbers increased greatly in a few years. It is wrong to say that Gaelic-medium education is suitable for one area but not for another. The situation is not that simple.

There are places such as Dundee and Fife where one would imagine very little Gaelic is used, but there are also remoter areas in which there are very few children and only a few come into the school. If the five or so pupils who enrol want Gaelic-medium education, why should they not receive it? It is important that parents should have that right. Provision will depend on what "reasonable demand" means in each area.

Dh'iarrainn-sa dìreach glè bheag a chur ris na chuala sibh a sin. An toiseach, chanainn ribh, neo chuirinn nur cuimhne, rud a chaidh a ràdh uair neo dhà an-diugh, bho chionn còrr air 120 bliadhna air ais chaidh Gàidhlig fhàgail a-mach à achd foghlaim agus co-dhiù 's e sin an t-amas a bh' ann aig an àm gus nach e, 's e buaidh chruaidh a bha sin gun deachaidh Gàidhlig fhàgail an dàrna taobh. Chaidh Gàidhlig fhàgail a-mach à foghlam làitheil agus chaidh Beurla a sparradh air cloinn air feadh Alba aig an robh Gàidhlig mar chànan mhàthaireil agus dh'fhàg e an-diugh tòrr dhe na daoine anns an dùthaich seo air a bheil tàmailt nach eil a' Ghàidhlig aca. 'S e buaidh a' cho-dhùnaidh a bh' ann bho chionn 120 bliadhna is còir dhan a sin.

Chanainn-sa seo ribh. Chan fhaod buaidh dìth na taice a thachair roimhe a bhith air a chleachdadh mar leisgeul airson teiche bho cheum leasachaidh agus cothrom leasachaidh an-diugh. Aon rud eil a chanainn ribh. 'S e bunait an iarrtais a chur sinne air adhart a thaobh inbhe thèarainte dhan chànain na faclan "facilitation not coersion" agus sin agad an argamaid a tha sinn a' toirt thugaibh an-diugh cuideachd. Mura bheil cothrom ann dha pàrantan foghlam tro mheadhan na Gàidhlig a thaghadh dhan a' chloinn chan urrainn dhaibh a dhèanamh agus mura bheil an cothrom sin ann tha sibhse a' cur binn bais air a' chànain leis a' bhile seo cuideachd.

I remind the committee of what has been said a couple of times today already. Gaelic was left out of the Education (Scotland) Act 1872. That action—whether or not it was an aim at the time—was destructive, as Gaelic was set aside and left out of education. English was forced upon children in Scotland who had Gaelic as their first language. Today, a lot of people in this country are embarrassed and sad that they do not have the language, but that is the result of the 1872 act. The lack of assistance that occurred before should not be used as an excuse not to proceed with development.

The fundamental way in which we want to develop the language is through facilitation, not coercion. That is the argument that we present today. If parents do not have the opportunity to choose Gaelic-medium education for their children, the Gaelic language will be allowed to die. By leaving it out of this bill, you are putting your amen to the death of Gaelic.

Thank you.

You talk about the Education (Scotland) Act 1872 and the fact that Gaelic was excluded. As a native Scots speaker, I think that the biggest problem was that Scots was also sidelined. We have talked about Gaelic, which is important, but it is equally important for me, as a lallander, to consider the fact that the Scots language has also been lost.

Fionnlagh, did you want to add something?

Dheidhinn-sa gu mòr a thaobh am beachd a thog an-dràsda. Tha trì cànanan ann an Alba agus tha mise dhen bheachd gu feum na trì aca inbhe fhaighinn. Tha iad eadar-dhealaichte, ge-tà, anns an dòigh, aig an ìre seo co dhìu, gu bheil pàrantan ag iarraidh gum bi foghlam aca tro mheadhan na Gàidhlig bho bhun gu bàrr.

A thaobh na Beurla, tha iad ag iarraidh sin cuideachd. 'S e an rud a dh'iarrainn-sa fhaicinn gum biodh pàrantan ag iarraidh an dearbh rud a thaobh Albais agus nuair a thig an latha sin tha mise an dòchas gum bi a' Phàrlamaid seo a' toirt an aon chothrom dhaibh.

Tha rud eile a' tighinn a-steach air cuideachd, rud nach do dh'ainmich sinn roimhe seo. 'S ann a thaobh fo aois sgoile a bha e, gu ìre. 'S e sin, tha mòran phàrantan a' tighinn thugainne gach bliadhna à dùthchannan eile, feadhainn a' tighinn à Canada, à Sasann, às a' Chuimrigh agus à Eireann agus tha iad ag ràdh, "Tha sinne ag iarraidh ar cuid-cloinne a bhith a' faighinn foghlam tro mheadhan na Gàidhlig".

Aon rud a tha mi ag iarraidh oirbh smaoineachadh air. Tha coimhearsnachdan ann, mar eisimpleir, a' Chomraich—Applecross—far nach eil foghlam fo aois sgoile tro mheadhan na Gàidhlig. Chan urrainn dhuinne cantainn riutha ma thèid sibh a dh'Inbhir Nis gheibh sibh foghlam tro mheadhan na Gàidhlig. Tha e a' cur rud beag de dh'uallach orm thairis air na deich bliadhna tha romhainn, dè bhuaidh a bhios aig a seo a thaobh teaghlaichean, gu h-àraidh anns na h-àitichean iomlach far nach eil mòran cloinne, far a bheil am foghlam fo aois sgoile gu lèir ann am Beurla. Dè bhuaidh a bhios aig a seo? Chan eil sinn a' bruidhinn air mòran ach aon teaghlach neo dà theaghlach a' falbh à coimhearsnachdan neo teaghlaichean nach eil idir a' dol dha na coimhearsnachdan sin mar Ghleann Eilge ann an Loch Aillse agus tha sinn air teaghlach a stiùireadh gu àite eil air sgàth 's nach eil foghlam fo aois sgoile ann neo foghlam bun-sgoile ann tro mheadhan na Gàidhlig.

Tha mi a' smaoineachadh gu bheil againn ri faighneachd na ceiste, "De bhuaidh a thaobh depopulation a bhios ann far nach eil sgìrean ann le foghlam tro mheadhan na Gàidhlig?" Chan eil mi idir a' bruidhinn air aon bhliadhna ach a' sealltainn 10 bliadhna is 15 bliadhna air thoiseach. Leis a sin, dh'iarrainn aon rud fhàgail agaibh. Tha e cudromach gu bheil Gàidhlig gu bhith ann anns a h-uile coimhearsnachd far a bheil pàrantan dha iarraidh. Tha e mar phàirt de rud Albannach, gu mòr a thaobh rud Albannach, agus ma tha pàrantan ann an Alba ag iarraidh gum bi Gàidhlig neo Albais aig an cuid-cloinne, tha mise a' faireachdainn gum bu chòir an cothrom sin a bhith aca.

I support the opinion that we have just heard. There are three languages in Scotland that must be accorded their place and status. There is a difference, however—at least, at this stage—in that parents want Gaelic-medium education. They also want education in English. I would like parents to want the same in the Scots language. When that day comes I hope that this Parliament will give them the same opportunity.

Another factor is involved that we have not mentioned before, which concerns pre-school education. Many parents come to us every year from other countries—from Canada, England, Wales and Ireland—who say that they want their children to be educated in Gaelic.

Members should bear in mind that there are communities, such as Applecross, where there has been no provision of Gaelic-medium schooling—it is non-existent. We cannot therefore encourage parents in that area. We have to tell them to go to Inverness to get Gaelic-medium education. If all education, at least at pre-school age, is in English, what effect will that have, over the next 10 years, on families settling in remote areas, where there are already very few children? It may not affect many families, but one or two may leave the community. Others will choose not to go to communities such as Glenelg near Skye and Lochalsh. We have already had to direct a family to another area because Gaelic-medium pre-school education does not exist.

We need to look 10 or 15 years ahead. We must ask about the effect that having no Gaelic-medium education is having and will have on depopulation statistics. I leave members with that question. It is important that Gaelic is available in every community where parents want it. It is part of Scotland. If there are parents in Scotland who want their children to have Gaelic or Scots they should be availed of that opportunity.

I am afraid that I must draw this part of the meeting to a close. I thank the witnesses for answering our questions so clearly and offer my apologies again for the upset at the beginning of the meeting, but I think that things did improve. May I say how sorry I am that we did not manage to meet you in Inverness. We had hoped that that would be possible, but unfortunately the practicalities meant that it was not. Perhaps we will meet there at some stage in the future and will be able to take views from not only you, but other members of your communities.

I thank also the interpreters, who did so well and enabled us to understand fully the thorough answers that we received to our questions.

We will take a couple of minutes to allow the witnesses to change seats and will then move on to the next agenda item.

Meeting adjourned.

On resuming—

I welcome the witnesses to the Education, Culture and Sport Committee. Please introduce yourselves and make some opening remarks. Members of the committee may then ask you some questions.

Good morning. I am a director of the Scottish Library Association and of the Scottish Library and Information Council.

Good morning. I am an educational development officer with Perth and Kinross Council. I am here in my capacity as the previous president of the SLA. I was also on the working group that produced the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities standards and I chaired the group that produced the performance indicators for school libraries.

We welcome the opportunity to give evidence to the committee. School library services have made a major contribution to education over the past 25 years. In many ways, that contribution has been heightened by developments in information and communications technology, which have helped to move school libraries and school librarians more centre stage than they have been in the past. The internet makes a wider range of resources available to pupils, it helps to mediate between pupils and information and it encourages pupils to use the new technology.

While there has been much development over the past 20 years, the association's view is that the position of the school librarian in secondary schools should be statutory. That would help to equalise provision throughout Scotland. At the moment, there are a number of authorities whose schools do not have librarians. That creates inequality of access and pockets of exclusion in the education system. The association believes that an amendment to the bill to make school library services statutory would do a great deal to raise standards in education and to help to resolve the problem of exclusion.

It is no coincidence that in the countries, especially the Scandinavian ones, that we look to as exemplars of co-ordinated information and communications technology, school library provision is statutory and has been for some time.

My colleague will say something about the contribution that librarians make to the curriculum and to schools.

I would like to say a little about the role of the school librarian in education. In "Improving our Schools" and in the draft bill, the Executive has emphasised the need for local authorities to look beyond the general provision of education to the development of the individual child. Authorities will be required to prepare young people for future challenges and to develop their personality, talents and abilities to their fullest potential.

School librarians have a critical role to play in that development. They promote inclusion, providing access to resources and facilities to all pupils, irrespective of ability. They provide an environment for learning that is supportive and encouraging—an environment that many of our young people do not have at home.

Librarians help to create confident and independent learners in schools, as they support young people in developing those skills that are needed to access and to use information—skills that, as Robert Craig has said, are increasingly crucial with the spread of information in electronic formats.

Librarians help to motivate young people to learn, offering stimulating and exciting resources and opportunities. They encourage young people to learn and to think across subject disciplines in schools, to use their imagination and to think creatively. If we are serious about lifelong learning, motivation should be an important aspect of that.

In all those ways, librarians make an important contribution to raising attainment and achievement in our schools. The important role of libraries and librarians in schools has, to some extent, begun to be recognised in the development of ICT skills, using the Government's new opportunities fund. In study support, the role of the librarian has been recognised in a number of pieces of research.

Last year, the Government put money into the books for schools initiative, while this committee, in its inquiry, is considering the infrastructure of schools, including school libraries. There is some feeling, then, that the Government considers libraries to be important. Her Majesty's inspectorate of schools has already identified the considerable differences in library provision between schools in Scotland. Young people are disadvantaged if they are denied access to the kinds of learning opportunities that libraries provide.

It is for those reasons that we would like the Scottish Executive to ensure that school library posts in secondary schools can be maintained and developed, that there will be an expectation of what those libraries and services will deliver to young people and that they will be part of the authority and school planning self-evaluation and inspection process.

Thank you. Do committee members have any questions? I see that Fiona McLeod wants to ask the first question. I know that she supports what Elizabeth Knowles has been saying, so I shall let her begin.

I have to declare my registered interest as a member of the Library Association and as a former school librarian. It is lovely to sit here as a committee member and hear Liz Knowles and Robert Craig putting across just how important libraries are to the education of our children. They have made a good case.

Liz Knowles talked about the work that school librarians do in helping pupils to become fully rounded and able to contribute fully to their schools. Can you elaborate on the work that is now done by school librarians to support the portfolio aspect of standard grade, and that will be done to provide such support for higher still?

Robert Craig mentioned the fact that almost all secondary schools in Scotland have school librarians. What would it cost to provide librarians in the 30 schools in Scotland that do not have qualified school librarians?

Following on from the questions that I asked representatives of the Gaelic organisations, another question comes to mind. The effect of the local government reorganisation of four years ago could instruct the committee on how the lack of a statutory position impacted on the provision of school library services when we lost the regions and went to unitary authorities. Will you comment on that?

Fiona McLeod asked about the role of librarians in working with senior pupils on portfolios and independent work at standard and higher grade levels. I believe that the preparation work for standard and higher grades starts at a much younger age, when pupils develop investigative skills and learn how to tackle projects on their own in an independent manner. For too long, there has been an assumption that libraries matter only when pupils get to S4 and S5. What is important is the progressive development of skills that allow pupils to work independently and think clearly about the strategies they use to access information and put together the work that is expected of them at S4 and S5 level.

Librarians do a great deal of work in supporting individual pupils in taking forward projects and investigations. That involves helping them to structure and manage their work and to develop the skills that we mentioned. It also allows them to access information and resources, within the school and outwith it. School libraries are linked to a national network that allows them to access materials that are available nationally.

It is important that pupils have access to those resources. They can access them during school time but, increasingly and appropriately, they also have better access to resources outwith school hours. That is important for pupils who are working on their own and may not have the resources available at home. That helps to build their opportunities to develop portfolios and independent work in a more structured way.

To supply librarians to the 30 schools that do not have them would cost somewhere in the region of £450,000. That is what it would cost to make up the difference if it was done in one financial year.

Before local government reorganisation, the regions were responsible for school library services. When the regions disappeared, those services were devolved to the new authorities. In some instances, the support services have been merged with the public library service, which, as members will be aware, has been statutory for 150 years.

I do not think that reorganisation has had a great direct impact on librarians in secondary schools. A greater impact has been felt in the support services, some of which have disappeared altogether while others have merged with public libraries. The picture varies from authority to authority. To some extent that reflects the strength of the services before reorganisation.

School libraries have been developing in Scotland for about 25 years. That development has been incremental, yet patchy. One could argue that if we waited long enough, all secondary schools would have school librarians. However, are we prepared to wait another 25 years for that to happen? The same argument was applied to public libraries, but without legislation and their statutory position such libraries would not exist in the way in which they do today.

Elizabeth, you said that school libraries promote inclusion and help to provide a learning resource. I agree that many kids do not have books and resources at home. Can you elaborate on the kind of support that we can give to those children?

Increasingly, school libraries are developing into learning resource centres. They encompass a vast range of resources and facilities that they may not have had even five years ago. Most secondary school libraries now have a range of ICT facilities, often networked across the school facility and sometimes across the council as well. They give children access to ICT. People feel strongly that there is a growing gap between the ICT poor and the ICT rich. The experience of information searching and handling that some children have access to at home is not available to all children and that is why it is important that school libraries have such resources in addition to books and other traditional materials.

It is important to make resource centres and libraries available to pupils outwith school hours. Authorities are now looking towards the study-support budgets that have come from the excellence fund initiatives to examine how such facilities can be made more accessible to pupils. There are examples of school libraries that are open at 8 o'clock in the morning for pupils coming in for breakfast clubs. They have always been available at lunchtime and they are increasingly available in the early evening.

There is an opportunity to look beyond what happens immediately after school—the bulk of the study-support activities take place between 3.30 and 5.30—and to consider the role of the secondary school library in community learning as well as the involvement of parents in family learning. In the initial stages, the provision of a qualified librarian to manage such services is something that obviously relates to the children, although it has a wider impact in terms of lifelong learning.

Community learning was the next issue. The library of my local school is open in the evening and ex-pupils who have gone on to universities and colleges in the city can go into the local school and use that library. That is a great resource. How do librarians see the extra work load brought about by giving access to the community? I know that the local school librarian thought that it was a wonderful idea, although it created a lot more work and stress for her.

It is always difficult when one begins to alter radically the way in which a library service operates, which the lifelong learning agenda is beginning to do, because librarians and the way in which they deliver the service face added pressure. Some people react better than others to change and are more adaptable.

The approach to service delivery is becoming much more flexible. For example, there is much closer co-operation between public libraries and further education colleges on the development of lifelong learning centres in public libraries. Historically, there has been good co-operation within schools between librarians and teachers on delivering those services. However, as services develop, schools will begin to expand the way in which they support the library. There is already evidence of that happening in other authorities, where library assistants are being provided in order to free the librarian to do the professional work that you identified. Potential solutions exist, if the changes are tackled flexibly.

In general, librarians believe that they have skills to offer opportunities beyond their immediate clientele. I do not think that they have any difficulty with the concept of extending their work into lifelong learning and community provision. However, the position of school librarians is fairly tenuous. While the majority of schools in Scotland have retained librarians, there are anxieties about what might happen with budget cuts and with difficulties in school provision. When developments are in progress, it would be helpful to librarians and to authorities if it were more certain that those posts would be retained and developed in the way in which people want. At times, the uncertainty and lack of clarity in individual authorities on the function of libraries within schools cause librarians concern about their role. What authorities expect of school libraries and resources centres must be clear and authority policy must be specific on that point.

The vital point is that we are not saying, "Make librarians statutory and that's the end of it." Our point is that that must be considered in a developing context. We have COSLA-approved standards for school libraries, so a framework is in place. The National Audit Office supported and published the performance indicators for school libraries that we developed. The elements to monitor and evaluate the service are in place, so that Government can be sure that it is getting value for money and that the service is helping to raise levels of attainment and to develop standards, which is important. Librarians must demonstrate that they can make that contribution, and some of the building blocks to enable them to do that are in place.

Do the performance indicators recognise the wider role for libraries?

The short answer is yes.

I will follow up the point made by Elizabeth Knowles on security of tenure. As noted earlier, the committee is at the stage of considering detailed amendments to the Standards in Scotland's Schools etc Bill and we are addressing the issue of the statutory status of school librarians. Do you think that statutory status is necessary to secure the provision of a library service within schools? Robert Craig mentioned uneven provision and the fact that some schools do not have a library facility. Is it your view that it is essential that the provision of library services is made statutory, or could that be achieved through guidelines or some other measure?

We would argue that the provision should be statutory. The difficulty with guidelines is that they are purely guidelines. Guidelines have been provided in the past, as by the Stimpson committee in 1974—there is a whole host of them. They have been partially successful, as they have encouraged some authorities either to improve their provision or to take that provision further. The problem is that, so far, the guidelines have had little impact in the areas that we have identified. Therefore, we would argue for statutory provision.

I endorse what Elizabeth is saying. School libraries are now regarded as powerhouses in schools. If they are properly run, they are a resource not only to help the pupils, but to support the teachers massively. Their importance is widely recognised. I am interested in their development as resource centres, which has made them more sexy, if you like. They are not bookish places, but places where the kids want to go. They enjoy being there, and the teachers feel confident that they can be provided with a service.

Do you think that the 30 schools that do not have librarians do not have them because of their size, or is it because of a lack of enthusiasm from the local authorities? Any secondary school that does not have a library is disadvantaging itself.

It is not a question of size. Several of the schools that do not have librarians have school rolls that run into the hundreds. We are not talking about 50 pupils or fewer. In some rural areas, school library provision has been slower to take off than in other areas, and there are perhaps historical reasons for that. It is certainly in rural areas that there are gaps in provision. The irony is that there are few alternatives in those areas, which makes the school library and the after-school provision that has been mentioned even more significant.

The same thing happened in the history of public library development. Without pressure from the Carnegie UK Trust, there would not have been public libraries in rural areas, and a similar problem would have arisen. In some ways, school services are just beginning to catch up.

Do you want a full-time specialist librarian in every school—even one and a half or two, if you can get them—or do you accept that sharing facilities with the local authorities is an option?

We want specialist school librarians, but there must be some kind of flexibility. In rural areas that have small populations, several schools might share those facilities. We are not saying that there must be a librarian in every school, but we want all schools to have access to the services of a librarian.

Ian Jenkins raised a couple of points that were similar to what I wanted to ask about. You mentioned that the cost of the 30 librarians that are lacking would be £450,000, at a cost of about £15,000 per head. Are you quite comfortable with that figure? I would have expected an employer's cost projection to have been in the region of £20,000 per head, which would make the figure £600,000. However, I am unaware of the salary scale—you might be able to help me in that regard—and your answer to Ian Jenkins's previous point, that there might be some sharing, suggests that £450,000 might be an accurate estimate.

The salary grades are an issue. Salary grades vary from authority to authority. They depend on the job description and—I have to be honest—the historical rates in each area. Salaries will vary from £11,000 or £12,000 to £20,000 at the top of the scale, depending on the authority. That gives rise to concerns throughout Scotland, although I believe that people should be paid according to their job description. The final total would depend on where librarians are employed.

Is there a pattern of not filling posts or of not creating posts where they do not exist? Are the 30 librarians lacking in particular authorities, or do gaps occur haphazardly?

The pattern was haphazard many years ago, but the gaps are now in particular authorities. Most authorities—as you can tell from the figures—have a full complement of school librarians, as they have had for many years. We have come here to argue from the point of view of our vested interest, but it is important to point out that, at a time when local authority budgets are under pressure—and they have been for some time—authorities have maintained those posts in all their secondary schools. That must say something about how much the librarians are valued.

That suggests that, once those posts have been created, they are valued by authorities, which feel that they should keep them. Your answer also suggests that other local authorities have made a specific policy decision. If that is the case, has that policy decision been driven by resources—have authorities looked at their budgets and had to change their policy—or do those authorities not value the service? Alternatively, do they believe that they make up for any lack through the provision of a different service?

It is a mixture of all those things. Some authorities, especially the rural ones, have come to address the matter rather late and have just begun to appoint librarians. It is more difficult for some of the island authorities to do that, as questions of resources and flexibility must be addressed. Some authorities are beginning to take a more flexible approach and are considering sharing resources, particularly in rural areas. There are various solutions to the problem and various reasons why we are in this position.

Fiona, you indicated that you wanted to speak.

I want to answer everybody's questions, but I know that that is the role of our witnesses today. Someone asked why school libraries should be statutory. Earlier, the committee discussed the statutory provision of Gaelic-medium education to meet parental demand. Could Robert or Liz elaborate on why school library provision, as an essential service, should be statutory?

Yes. We support that statement and agree that school libraries provide an essential service. The point that I made about the authorities retaining the service even when they are under financial pressure illustrates that. As I said, developments in ICT and the way in which lifelong learning is being delivered will heighten the importance of librarians in schools. Because so much will be done on an individual basis, learning will be delivered outside the classroom in many cases. I return to the point that was made about social inclusion. For many children, the school library is the first and, in some cases, the only place where they can access books and technical resources. That is especially true in rural areas, but it also applies to urban areas. The present system creates inequality in access and therefore exclusion. No matter how we dress the matter up, that is how it is. How that can be resolved is a matter for the Parliament to decide, but there is no doubt that the need exists.

I agree with your approach. However, although it is possible to have a statutory requirement that there should be a library in every school, the quality of the library is important. You could have three shelves of books and call it a library. Standards are required. It is not enough to stipulate on paper that a place has to exist. A library is more than a place.

I agree totally. The framework for schools that we have produced through COSLA contains the beginnings of a set of standards, as do the performance indicators. The performance indicators are based closely on the "How good is our school?" document. They indicate benchmark provisions that concern more than quantity. To consider the reverse of the case that Mr Jenkins described, you could have a gorgeous-looking library that was absolutely full of books but that did not do anything to help learning or teaching.

Indeed.

Although it is important to have a good number of books and sufficient space, it is far more important to get to the heart of what libraries can do for learning and teaching in a school. Our performance indicators are a start in that process. Together with the COSLA standards, they provide an important framework.

The local education authority must have its own policy and standards for libraries in its schools. The bill deals with the inspection of local education authorities. One would hope that, as part of that inspection, people would be considering the policies and evaluation mechanisms that authorities have for their school libraries. Some authorities invest heavily in school libraries—through salaries, through the devolved budgets and perhaps through other money for study support through the national grid for learning.

It is vital that any provision of posts is set in the context of having a clear view of objectives and the way in which they will be evaluated. We hope that the inspection of the school library will be seen as an integral element of any school inspection.

Even if you did not get statutory requirements into the bill, those inspection procedures would mean that there was no longer anywhere for local authorities to hide.

It might inform the committee's discussions if Robert could send us copies of the COSLA standards, the performance indicators and—as Brian Monteith had to do the arithmetic—an outline of the average salary scales for school librarians and the qualifications that they need. I forget that I know all those things and that not everybody else does.

I would be happy to do that.

As there are no more questions, I thank the witnesses for their answers. We will consider these matters further as we go through the bill.

Thank you for your time and attention.