New Petition
Recycling in Schools (PE1437)
PE1437 is a new petition, by Les Wallace, on recycling in schools. Members have a note by the clerk, a Scottish Parliament information centre briefing, and a copy of the petition.
I welcome Les Wallace to the meeting. I am grateful to you for coming, and appreciate your giving your time.
I invite you to make a short presentation. We will be fairly liberal with time this morning. You have between five and 10 minutes; I will then ask you a few questions.
Thank you very much for letting me speak to the committee.
I first became involved in education on recycling and reducing in February 1989, so I have been involved in the issues for quite a long period. At that time, I was one of the original participants in a kerbside collection scheme in Falkirk district, which was one of the original schemes that introduced kerbside recycling to Scotland. Within a few weeks, it became blatantly obvious to me that the scheme was not going to work. There were serious problems with how it was being implemented, the most serious of which was a general failing with education. Very little attention was paid to the purpose of getting reduce, reuse, recycle information out to the public and, even worse, there was very little interest in people going into schools and developing a recycling ethos in them. That was despite the fact that, even at that time, there was a considerable amount of rhetoric about the importance of getting children when they were young. That is common sense. I know from my experience that it is not an urban myth or wishful thinking that, when young children get an opportunity to recycle, they are extremely enthusiastic about it. I have personal experience of that, and have found that it is not the problem.
The problem is institutional apathy towards providing young children with opportunities for hands-on recycling. That is a serious failing that I have seen over 20 years, and there is shared blame for it. Some of the blame goes to central Government policy, a lot goes to local authorities and the green movement—which did not pay as much attention to the issue as it should have done—and an element of blame goes to education departments and schools.
We must establish basic mandatory standards in implementing reduce, reuse, recycle practice and teaching in schools, and we must start to look at where the best practice is and ensure that it is the standard. We must move on from there and develop and experiment. Despite the general environmental aims, the legislation and the funding for the promotion of recycling and reducing, the educational aspect is extremely poor. It is inconsistent and generally inadequate.
My petition focuses on a key indicator: the provision of recycling facilities in school playgrounds. If enough waste is produced for waste bins, there should automatically be a case for deploying recycling bins at the same time. Not having them sends out a mixed message. It undermines the critical reduce, reuse and recycle message, and an important opportunity to establish a mindset in young children is lost.
I saw that attitude even as I came to Edinburgh today. I came on a ScotRail train to Waverley station. Commuting is a high-profile activity. It is the main element in the lives of many people, but our national railway station has no separate recycling bins. Apparently, everything goes in waste bins and is taken away, hand sorted and recycled. If that is the case, it is a poor way of recycling, and that is a failing.
That approach is also reflected in the fact that many school playgrounds do not have separate recycling facilities. The two issues are linked. I have discussed the matter with many people, and no one has disagreed with me on the importance of developing people’s mentality at a young age. There is a considerable amount of evidence and experience to show that getting children involved in recycling has an immediate effect in changing adults’ behaviour. Our general recycling rate in Scotland is appalling. Also, bringing in recycling is probably a much better way of developing anti-litter attitudes than just providing litter bins. I have never had any dissension on that.
In my area, Falkirk district, no one, including the education department, can tell me which schools provide recycling bins in the playground and which ones do not, far less identify which is the best scheme that all schools should follow.
I have had quite a lot of discussions with people that seem to indicate that in my area there is a limit on how much material schools can recycle. It seems that the relevant council department limits the amount of material that it collects from schools. It is technically limited. It is a ridiculous situation that needs investigation, although I am not entirely surprised because we have had similar comments from people in other areas of Scotland. In fact, I have some quotes that I have collected and will pass on to the committee.
We have reached the stage where we need to bring the educational aspect of promoting the reduce, reuse, recycle policy to the same level as the legislation and funding. Essentially, that is the point of the petition. We need seriously to consider some mandatory standards because the reduce, reuse, recycle policy has been badly neglected for a long time. It will be much better to put our efforts into developing education and improving reducing, reusing and recycling rates than to invest in incineration, which will commit us to the production of a lot of waste and will not solve the litter problem.
Thank you for your contribution, Mr Wallace. I strongly support a number of the issues that you have raised.
A couple of years ago I went to Eigg, when the primary school won one of the eco-school awards. I was really impressed with all the work. It was not just one class—the whole school seemed to be integrated. That approach is very much reflected in your points on recycling.
My understanding is that there is some legislation, which I think will be fully enforced in 2014, that requires schools to do a lot more work—it very much echoes the points in your petition. Do you feel that that legislation is sufficient and that schools should be doing a lot more before 2014 to get up to scratch?
I have not seen the legislation, although it is encouraging to hear that it is there. My answer is that it depends on whether the legislation is fully implemented and whether the standards are set, kept and not watered down between now and 2014. There really has to be a big effort before then to establish work with schools.
You are right that some schools are doing a really good job, but some are not. My feeling, which relates to what other people have said, is that at the moment some children are receiving a decent education on the reduce, reuse, recycle approach but it is a lottery—it depends on the school, the teachers and the local authority. It is inconsistent.
The good schools are the exception, but we have to make them the standard. There is certainly a big difference among schools. Schools should have set standards. Also, if a technical problem is being imposed on schools, that should be removed. If there are any bureaucratic considerations, those should be dealt with, too. The issue is partly that schools need a push and partly that things have to be made easier for them.
It is unfortunate that the positive examples sometimes get used to obscure the problems with other schools. That happens quite a lot. The examples that are held up are the exceptions—they are not standard. That can be a wee bit counterproductive.
You may have already covered this, but you probably know that the General Teaching Council for Scotland is consulting on revised professional standards for teachers. Issues to do with sustainability and recycling could be part of that. Is contacting the GTC something that you have considered as part of your petition?
I have not contacted the GTC, but I will consider that. Interestingly, one of the comments in my paper was from a secondary school teacher who was quite critical about the school’s attitude and the attitude of some teachers towards the reduce, reuse, recycle approach. He said that they were not setting a good example. That is from a teacher, so it has some validity. It is an issue that some teachers seem to take quite seriously and which others do not, even though it is part of the curriculum.
That is an area that the committee may wish to contact the GTC about.
10:15
The issue that you have quite rightly identified is an important one for all of us.
The committee papers tell us that there are just under 4,000 registered eco-schools in Scotland and that 40 per cent of those schools have achieved a green flag award. Do you think that that scheme is enough to promote recycling in schools? When a school is awarded a green flag, it is a major event. I have my personal views about what the green flags are being awarded for, but I would like to hear your views before I give my comments.
I have spoken about this to a few teachers and to people who do work with schools, such as rangers and various voluntary organisations that go into schools. Those awards are quite often double-edged swords. Having eco-schools, a flag system and standards is an improvement and can drive things forward. However, it can also means that some schools tick a few boxes, get their eco-school status, their green flag and their bronze award or whatever, and leave it there. I have heard from quite a few people that such things can be used as an excuse not to do more.
Like any part of education, environmental education has to have standards and be mandatory. It should have nothing to do with eco-schools. Those standards should be in place whether or not a school is an eco-school. They should be part and parcel of the general educational package. Recycling must be in place, no matter what. I have dealt with someone in Keep Scotland Beautiful, which runs the eco-schools programme, about that issue.
Even schools that have done well and have got the flag could do a wee bit more.
In my experience of the eco-school system, clearing up litter in the playground seems to count more than recycling. However, given that we have eco-schools and the award system, would it not be preferable to tie those into the work of organisations such the Scottish Wildlife Trust and the others that you referred to earlier? I know that the Jupiter urban wildlife centre in Grangemouth goes out to schools and brings people in to show them what it does about recycling. Would it not be better to make recycling a wider community issue rather than something that is just taught in the school? You can make it mandatory in the school, but the problem is that—as I know from where I live—kids just throw the rubbish in the street because they see their parents doing it. They think that that is the norm, so they do not put their rubbish in the bin.
That is part of the solution. I have concentrated on the schools element because I think that that is the most critical area. We have had kerbside recycling in Scotland for more than 20 years and we are not even reaching the schools properly. My specific point is to do with schools but I agree that the general educational work that has been done with the public has been poor.
I live in a kerbside recycling area but the information that has been given to me has not been great. The quality and quantity of information is quite derisory. Along with the work that is done in schools, we must consider the package that is presented to the public. The two areas should complement each other. Obviously, if the reduce, reuse, recycle message in schools is backed up with more general campaigning, that would be helpful.
I have with me an example of what I mean: a leaflet that was given to me by my local authority eight, nine or 10 years ago when it rolled out the three kerbside bins scheme. A lot of you will be familiar with the brown, blue and green bins. This is the only information that I can recall the council sending out about that scheme: an eight-page document that was sent out about eight years ago.
Would you mind reading out the title of the leaflet for the Official Report, so that we have a record of what it is called?
Certainly. It is entitled “Three Bin Kerbside Recycling Guide—Helping you get it sorted”. It is quite old now. The reason why people should participate in the kerbside recycling scheme is set out in just two paragraphs in this eight-page document. It starts off:
“Why do we need to recycle our waste?
New European laws have been passed that require the countries who are part of the European Union to lower the amount of waste that they send to landfill.”
That is the first of only two paragraphs in that eight-page document telling the public why they should use the multimillion-pound kerbside recycling scheme that the council was rolling out. I do not think that that is adequate in terms of either the quantity or the quality of the information.
I totally agree with John Wilson that there is a need to expand the general message—the two approaches complement each other.
I place on record the fact that Mr Wallace attended my surgery on Friday to discuss the issue and other environmental issues in the Falkirk district.
I have a lot of sympathy for your petition, Mr Wallace. In your written submission, you refer to the three Rs: reduce, reuse, recycle. I was surprised to learn that there is no legal requirement for Scotland’s schools to provide recycling facilities in their playgrounds. I hope that the new legislation will help to address that.
You referred to the situation in 1989, when you started recycling. Surely you recognise that major improvements have been made since then, not least in Falkirk, where the council has met its targets in recent years.
There could not have been anything but an improvement. We are doing some work in schools now, but when recycling got started in Scotland no such work was being done. In that sense, there has been a big improvement. The situation is better than it was, but I feel that it is still not as good as it should be. Delivery is inconsistent across Scotland and it seems that different local authorities are taking different approaches. I cannot see how that is healthy or the best way of doing things. We really should look at having standard best practice.
From my experience in environmental education, I know that including physical recycling as part of the educational package makes a considerable difference to the provision of effective environmental education to children. Many years ago, I worked on an internship at an education centre in America where we spoke to the children about the need to reduce, reuse and recycle. They came in, we spoke about it and they went away again, but there was no element of getting the children physically involved in recycling at their school, for example, and as far as I am aware that education did not make any difference. I have also been involved in alternative approaches in which getting the children involved in physical recycling has been part of the package and it has worked really well. There is a huge difference in how effective different forms of environmental education are.
So, yes, we have gone forward—we could not but do that—but we are still way short of where we need to be and the approach is inconsistent. A lot of really good people are involved, such as Jen Barrett at Falkirk Council, who is an outstanding person. Some superb people are involved in the local authorities, but they are sometimes let down. Jen Barrett is fantastic and has been really helpful to me and a lot of schools. There are good people working on the issue, but, like a chain, they are only as strong as the weakest link and, unfortunately, there are a lot of links that have to be dealt with.
Have you shared your American experiences with local authority officers?
Yes. I have spoken directly to quite a few people on the council as well as to a lot of teachers, and I have tried to share information as much as possible and give it a wider platform. Over the years, I have made a big point of saying that if the physical element of recycling is not included in an educational package it will not work very well. That needs to be stressed.
Children can become fanatical recyclers when they are involved in recycling at a young age. I know a kid who harassed his headmaster to improve recycling in his school. The headmaster had to put up with that, because the kid was in the right. That is true.
However, big differences exist. We need to look at the best forms of education available and ensure that they meet the required standard.
My colleague John Wilson said that more than 40 per cent of schools have green flag status. Do the criteria for that status require schools to have recycling facilities in their playgrounds?
I am not certain about that. I know of one or two primary schools that do not have full green flag status and, as far as I am aware, they do not have recycling facilities in their playgrounds. A lot of schools in the Falkirk district appear not to have recycling facilities in their playgrounds. If those schools do not have green flag status, I imagine that having such facilities must be part of the criteria.
In that case, the eco-schools approach has not been a big enough driver to make recycling facilities in playgrounds a standard feature in schools. Some schools have a higher eco-school status than others, which creates a wee bit of an inconsistency. Eco-schools are great, but they are not a substitute for mandatory standards.
I will let Angus MacDonald back in briefly, but we are a little short of time.
In your preamble, you mentioned “institutional apathy”. What would you do to deal with that?
Mandatory standards must be set. It must not be possible for certain people in certain local authority departments to throw a spanner in the works for other people.
I will give an example from Falkirk district. I was at a recycling management committee meeting in 1995—kerbside recycling had been going on in Falkirk for six years by then—at which a senior staff member of a council department who was at the table argued against putting effort into educational work on the reduce, reuse and recycle approach in schools, because they felt that talking about litter issues was more of a priority. When I pointed out that those issues were the same thing and that it was not a case of one or the other, that person said that we just had to look at the reluctance to use bins in schools and that such work would be a waste of time. That was procrastination and doing nothing.
The attitude in some quarters is still that recycling is an obligation at best. The commitment in some areas is not at the level that is needed.
We are a little short of time, so I ask for short questions and short answers.
I will concentrate on the second part of the petition, which calls for a national survey to be undertaken. Who would complete and undertake the survey? What form would it take? Who would compile the information that it produced and to what effect? What would be done with that and in what format would that be? How much would the survey cost and from where would that cost be met?
My idea is that a comprehensive survey would be conducted by a wide range of partners, including people from local authorities, central Government, non-governmental organisations and education authorities. The survey would look into a multitude of issues. I spoke to somebody about the idea the other week. I think that we would have to look outside Scotland for examples of really effective environmental education, which could be replicated here.
I imagine that the information would be compiled professionally in pretty much the way that information from any other survey is. Some of the information would be quantified numerically, but some would not be—it would be boiled down to statements.
There would be a cost. I cannot tell the committee the cost—that is not my field—but the benefits would be considerably greater than any cost. If the survey meant that we had a higher standard of environmental education and information that made our existing recycling infrastructure work more effectively, the costs would be minimal compared with the benefits.
10:30
I will give one example. My local authority, Falkirk Council, has one of the best recycling rates in Scotland and one of the most comprehensive kerbside recycling schemes, which has been established for a good few years. However, a waste analysis that was done in the area some years ago found that almost half the material that was going in the green bin was recyclable or compostable. It is estimated that, in Falkirk district, the council is spending £1.2 million on landfill tax just because people do not use the existing recycling and composting facilities. Some people in my local authority are considering a scheme whereby, if a community can increase the recycling and composting rate, half the savings will go back into that community. That is because there is such desperation to improve the way in which the infrastructure is used. As I said, the costs of a survey would be minimal in comparison with the potential benefits.
I am interested in your petition, but what evidence do you have that there is institutional apathy throughout the country and a shortfall in schools’ performance? I would have thought that in the past 20 years and with the advent of the eco-schools programme, we would have made dramatic improvements on environmental matters and on consciousness of the reduce, reuse, recycle mantra. I have certainly visited more than a few schools where children and teachers are very enthusiastic about picking up all the elements of the eco-school idea.
To repeat an earlier point, we have moved forward considerably, but that was comparatively easy, because we started from nothing. When I started in kerbside recycling in 1989, the organisation that I worked for, which was an environmental charity—that is why it had the money—had absolutely no plans to develop environmental education in schools and no interest in doing so, which was a disgrace. It took about seven or eight years to get an officer in place.
I am sorry to interrupt, but that was then and this is now.
It is still relevant.
We have moved significantly further forward. Where is your evidence that there is a significant problem?
We have moved significantly further forward, but we are still way behind where we need to be. Why do some schools seem to have recycling facilities in playgrounds when others do not? That is a key indicator of an element of delivering effective environmental education. We have perhaps moved forward, but we still have a massive problem with litter dumping. That has not eased. Recycling rates are not great and there is still a huge problem with children, and parents, dropping litter. So although we have moved forward, it is not far enough. We have to move from eco-schools to having a set standard in all schools, not just eco-schools. I have made that point to Keep Scotland Beautiful, too.
As I say, I have information and quotes, which I will pass to members at the end and which I hope back up some of my points. We are in danger of deluding ourselves if we think that eco-schools are enough—they are great, but they are not enough. That programme is a valuable step forward, but it is not enough.
We have time for a quick question from Anne McTaggart.
I welcome the petition, which is extremely good. The media have an important role to play. We have focused on schools and education, but I know how much the clean up the streets project by the Evening Times in Glasgow involved the community. It is important that we emphasise that, as well as what happens in nurseries and in primary and secondary schools.
Yes. A lot of good work is done. Last night, I spoke to a grandmother who said that her grandchildren know about reducing, reusing and recycling and about fair trade, but they do not apply that knowledge. They will buy Fairtrade coffee to please her, but they do not buy it for themselves. They do not chuck litter on the street, but they do not reduce, reuse and recycle. They know about those things, but that is not the same as getting involved. There is a big difference.
There are inconsistencies. We have a huge litter problem in Scotland, but litter and fly-tipping issues are treated as separate from the reduce, reuse, recycle approach. They are sometimes even treated as conflicting issues.
I did a litter pick-up event on Saturday during which we tried to encourage people to reduce, reuse and recycle. We tried to divert material away from landfill to recycling, and we were fairly successful in that.
I am sorry to cut you short, Mr Wallace. Thank you very much for your evidence and comprehensive answers, which have been useful. You can stay where you are in the meantime, because we still have to decide on the next steps on the petition.
My view is that the petition is a good one that we should certainly continue. We should write to the Scottish Government to ask for its views, particularly in relation to the Waste (Scotland) Regulations 2012.
I agree that we should continue the petition. As well as writing to the Scottish Government, we should write to the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities to find out what measures it is taking to ensure that we reach the targets that have been set. It would also be useful to contact Zero Waste Scotland, eco-schools Scotland and the General Teaching Council for Scotland to seek their views on the petition and to ask what action they are taking to ensure that the issue of recycling in schools is being addressed. We could ask whether it is part of the eco-schools strategy to ensure that recycling is in place.
Given that the petitioner has referred extensively to Falkirk Council, I suggest that we also write to it to ask for its views on the petition. It is only right to give that local authority the opportunity to respond to the issues that the petitioner has raised.
In addition, we should write to Education Scotland, which after all is the schools inspectorate. We might get feedback on how the eco-schools programme has been rolled out.
That is a good idea.
With regard to writing to the General Teaching Council for Scotland, we should ask when it expects the outcome of its consultation to be made available.
As there are no further comments, are members happy with the course of action that has been suggested?
Members indicated agreement.
I thank Mr Wallace for coming to give evidence and for replying to our questions in such a comprehensive way. Obviously, we will keep him up to date with all the developments on his petition.
I suspend the meeting for two minutes to allow Mr Wallace to leave and the Minister for Community Safety and Legal Affairs to take her place.
10:37
Meeting suspended.
10:39
On resuming—