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Chamber and committees

Rural Affairs Committee, 26 Sep 2000

Meeting date: Tuesday, September 26, 2000


Contents


Petitions

The Convener:

We move to consideration of petitions, which is item 3 on the agenda.

PE63, from the National Farmers Union of Scotland, asks for increased resources for agri-environment schemes. We considered this petition on 29 February and agreed to defer further discussion until decisions on modulation had been made and the Transport and the Environment Committee had considered the petition. The views of that committee and the recent decision on modulation are summarised in the attached notes from the Scottish Parliament information centre and the clerks. In light of that additional information, do members wish to comment further on PE63?

Mr Rumbles:

During the time that has been afforded to us to consider the petition, it has been decided, according to the SPICe paper, that additional resources of £3 million to £4 million are to be devoted to agri-environment schemes. I am content that the matter is being addressed.

Irene McGugan:

I suspect that the real issue is resources. The evidence supported the petitioner's claim that resources were inadequate. It is not for us to know whether the NFUS considers that the terms of modulation are adequate and meet the call that is made in the petition.

Rhoda Grant:

We have been given to understand that the budget increases will include money for agri-environment schemes. It is difficult for us to do anything further with the petition while the situation is developing. Perhaps we should refer the petition back to the NFUS.

The Convener:

It could be said that the issues that are raised by the petition will, of necessity, form part of our consideration of the budget at stage 2, given that increased resources for agri-environment schemes are mentioned in the published papers. I suppose that it is up to the Rural Affairs Committee to investigate the nature of those increased resources and to identify whether they satisfy the demands that have been voiced by many people, including the NFUS in its petition.

Alex Fergusson:

I agree with Mike Rumbles. The concern that was raised in the petition has, to an extent, been addressed. We should note what the petition says and carry forward that concern for consideration as part of our inquiry into agriculture. The issue has been addressed for the time being and we should move on.

The Convener:

In light of what has been said, are members content to note the petition and to consider further the issue that it raises during our inquiry into agriculture in Scotland and our scrutiny of the Executive's budget?

Members indicated agreement.

The Convener:

The next petition is PE96 from Allan Berry; it relates to sea cage fish farming. The petition asks

"that the Parliament carry out an independent and public inquiry of the adverse environmental impact of fish farming, and the regulatory failure to both recognise and prevent significant damage to our natural heritage, the environment, and other interests dependent on the integrity of our Scottish coastal waters."

Members have a copy of the petition and a full briefing from the Scottish Executive, and should note the strong views of environmental and angling groups on sea cage fish farming.

The Transport and the Environment Committee supported in principle the request for an inquiry, but noted that it has a full work programme. That committee has requested that we involve it in the development of any inquiry that we may undertake.

The Rural Affairs Committee is also fully committed to a work programme. Given the strength and divergence of the views that are before us, does the committee believe that the matter warrants a more detailed inquiry?

Mr Munro:

I do not think that there is any doubt about that. I do not need to tell anyone here that the situation is quite serious, particularly on the west coast where there is a high incidence of caged salmon farming, which has extended over the years and created its own problems.

Various proposals for a full-scale inquiry have been made over many years, but little has happened. The situation has now reached a serious, critical stage. As I said earlier, the shellfish and scallop industry is almost at a standstill and everyone has their own ideas about why that should be. Until there is some clear evidence that gives the salmon farming industry a clean bill of health, or that identifies the problems that the industry may be causing, we will continue to receive petitions such as PE96 and the information that it contains. The sooner we undertake an inquiry the better.

Richard Lochhead:

I support John Farquhar Munro's comments. No one would deny that our more remote communities have benefited economically from fish farming. However, for years there has been a heated and vigorous debate about the implications of fish farming for wild fish stocks and the environment, and accusations have flown back and forth.

Someone must show leadership in that debate; someone must grasp the problem and try to discover answers to the questions that are being asked. I do not think that many people know the answers. What is happening is not helpful to any of the industries that are involved. There are continuing difficulties over issues such as sea lice, which even Scottish Quality Salmon acknowledges are a problem. Such issues must be tackled so that we can end the debate over the environmental implications of fish farming and move on.

Des McNulty:

I support the call for an inquiry. In addition to the environmental issues that are laid out in the petition, there are the broader economic issues that we considered in the report we are preparing. We require much more detailed and effective scientific evidence than we have received before we can decide whether to go down the route of fish farming.

If we are to conduct an inquiry, we should involve the Transport and the Environment Committee. There is considerable interest in the issue from members of both committees. The various dimensions of the matter must be considered properly. It is a high priority and we must do it properly and spend the appropriate amount of time to examine the matter rigorously. That will require environmental input.

Alasdair Morgan:

I agree that an inquiry is required. There is a great deal of public concern on both sides of the argument. We should go into this with our eyes open and realise that we may not be able to reach a neatly packaged conclusion or point to a clear way forward. I suspect that, given the plethora of scientific and pseudo-scientific evidence that exists, we may need expert advice. Quite how we would ensure that that advice was not predisposed towards one side of the argument or the other I do not know, but that is not a reason for not going ahead. We are bound to encounter such difficulties in the process.

Mr McGrigor:

I agree with everything that everyone has said, including John Farquhar Munro. Having talked to people in the salmon farming industry, I know that they are pledged to coexistence and sustainability, but a review would certainly help to clear the air. The industry has grown in a short time from being quite small to being enormous. The effects on wild fish stock and the environment seem to have been problems of late and should be investigated, as there are all sorts of people who depend on the marine environment, especially on the west coast of Scotland.

I think that we all agree on the need to do something, but what windows do we have in our timetable?

The Convener:

I have discussed the matter with the convener of the Transport and the Environment Committee. We agreed—and it is certainly my view—that the matter has been on the agenda queue for rather longer than it ought to have been, and that we must progress the matter as quickly as possible. However, during our discussion, a number of questions were raised about how an inquiry might be progressed and what the resource implications might be, for the cost of the inquiry and for clerking requirements.

We are aware that the inquiry could be major, so it has been suggested that the committee should, with great urgency, appoint two reporters to work in conjunction with similar representation from the Transport and the Environment Committee to consider the issues that require investigation. Those reporters would bring their recommendations to the committee at the earliest opportunity. The Transport and the Environment Committee will study a paper on the matter at its next meeting, which I believe will take place tomorrow.

If we are to progress, we must appoint two reporters now so that we can deal with the issue as soon as possible.

I suggest that one of those reporters should be John Farquhar Munro, who has considerable constituency interests in the issue.

I suggest Richard Lochhead.

Would the committee be happy for John Farquhar Munro and Richard Lochhead to act as reporters?

Members indicated agreement.

I emphasise the urgency of the matter, which we must progress as quickly as possible. Are there any other comments?

I am quite happy to accept my appointment as reporter, but we will require some direction from the committee. You suggested that we would have support from the Transport and the Environment Committee.

The Convener:

That is right. The primary reason for appointing reporters today is that I fully expect the Transport and the Environment Committee to appoint two reporters as well. John Farquhar Munro and Richard Lochhead can work together with the reporters from that committee to develop a proposal that is agreeable to both committees as soon as possible.

I have a note from the clerk pointing out that members of the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans from the House of Commons in Canada are planning a visit to Scotland during the first week of December 2000, and are interested in meeting members of the committee. That committee is examining issues relating to the environmental management of the aquaculture industry. Its study includes an examination of the regulation and use of pesticides and veterinary drugs, the generation and release of wastes and the effects of nutrients on the ocean environment as a result of aquaculture. Would members be interested in organising a meeting with members of the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans from the House of Commons in Canada?

Members indicated agreement.

I shall come back to the committee with a formal proposal for where and when that meeting should take place. It would be interesting for members to meet their Canadian counterparts.

Des McNulty:

I am sure that it would, but if one wants to take such meetings to a level above a simple exchange of polite conversation, one might want to identify specific topics on which work could be done so that the meeting is more productive. It would be sensible for us to form relationships with people from other parts of the world who have similar concerns, and Canada is an interesting example. However, we need someone to identify the topics that would allow us to get the greatest benefit from that exchange of views. The clerk could investigate that and prepare for us, a month in advance, an outline of the meeting and what we could expect to get out of it. The meeting should be organised, rather than just something that happens on the day.

That is fair comment and I will take that on board. If we are heavily involved in an investigation by the time of the December visit, that investigation may also throw up one or two issues that we would like to discuss with the visitors.

Des McNulty:

I have a question about the appointment of reporters, as I am anxious about the mechanics of how the work will be done. It is probably a good idea to appoint reporters at this stage to do a trawl of the areas that need to be identified, but I would be concerned if two members of the Rural Affairs Committee and two members of the Transport and the Environment Committee were carrying out an inquiry. That would be almost like setting up another committee to deal with the issue, which is probably not the most effective way to work.

The function of the reporters in this case is to consider the issues and report back to the committee on what the inquiry might consider, rather than to conduct the inquiry.

Des McNulty:

We may need to appoint an adviser. The task of the reporters and committee clerks might be to identify the terms of reference of a possible inquiry and the parameters within which we could progress that inquiry. We may still want to appoint lead members to carry the inquiry through, but I suspect that, considering the time scale and members' commitments, we may not want to leave work of that scale too much in MSPs' hands. The reporters should identify the task and what needs to be done, then map out with officials a way of ensuring that that is done properly. That way, we will get the kind of investigation we want.

From the paper that was presented to us I understood that Richard Lochhead and John Munro would be discussing the mechanisms and terms of reference for such an inquiry, before reporting back to us. Is that what is happening?

Yes.