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Chamber and committees

Justice 2 Committee, 07 Nov 2006

Meeting date: Tuesday, November 7, 2006


Contents


Petition


Limited Companies (Court Representation) (PE863)

The Convener:

Item 3 is petition PE863, in the name of Bill Alexander, which urges the Scottish Executive to amend the Solicitors (Scotland) Act 1980 to allow limited companies to be given either the right to apply for legal aid or the right to represent themselves in court. Among the papers that have been circulated, members should have received the recent e-mail from Mr Alexander. Annex E—a letter of 2 November 2006—confirms that the Legal Profession and Legal Aid (Scotland) Bill will not provide the measures that are sought.

The committee is invited to consider how it wishes to proceed. The options are: to note the matters that are raised and the evidence that has been received and to close the petition; to seek further written evidence; to seek further oral evidence from the petitioner, minister or other relevant groups or individuals; or to take other competent action.

Colin Fox:

According to paragraph 6 of the paper, the Executive may consider

"any ‘significant call' for legislative change"

on the issue of limited companies being ineligible for legal aid. The Executive seems to have an open mind.

The second part of the petition—in my opinion it has only two parts—is about representation in court. Our discussions with the minister on sections 25 to 29 of the Land Reform (Miscellaneous Provisions) (Scotland) Act 1990 would cover that. Perhaps Anne Peat can advise me, but it is my recollection that the committee received a letter from the Executive saying that it intends to commence the provisions before next March. The petition highlights an anomaly, which is that large companies can afford representation and individuals can seek legal aid. I agree with the Executive that it would not be right for limited companies to have access to legal aid, but there should be some other avenue. Is it possible to put those concerns to the minister with a view to getting a written reply?

I favour that suggestion.

Mr MacAskill:

I have always thought that the relationship between the company and liability is a two-way street. As long as company directors can rest behind corporate liability, they should not be able to appear. If and when we change the law so that we can look behind that and hold directors accountable, the converse will apply in a sort of quid pro quo, which makes me think that the petition is to some extent premature. Should Parliament go down the road of having a corporate homicide bill and being prepared to hold directors responsible, I would support such a move. At that stage it would be legitimate to argue that a director should be able to appear on behalf of a company. However, while it remains the case that they are given protection, they should not necessarily have the right to appear.

I refer Colin Fox's question to the clerks.

Anne Peat (Clerk):

I cannot say more than to refer the committee to the Executive's letter of 2 November, which states:

"neither section 42 of the Legal Profession and Legal Aid (Scotland) Bill nor any other provision in the Bill would have the effect of allowing limited companies and other non-natural persons to represent themselves in court."

Maureen Macmillan:

The petition has two strands: one is representation in court—I do not think we can go down that road—and the other is on accessing legal advice and assistance. I presume that the Legal Profession and Legal Aid (Scotland) Bill, which has just completed stage 2, would allow us to address that point. Not all limited companies are huge corporations; many small charities are limited companies. I assume that they can go for legal advice to a citizens advice bureau and prepare themselves for an appearance in court that way, so that it would not cost them so much.

Jackie Baillie:

I recollect the point to which Colin Fox referred. Evidence from the minister and his bill team gave us a date for commencement of provisions in the Law Reform (Miscellaneous Provisions) (Scotland) Act 1990 in respect of the rights to conduct litigation and rights of audience to be granted to members of professional and other bodies. Paragraph 13 of the clerk's note helpfully outlines the situation.

As for the rest of the issues that are raised in the petition, I am happy to agree with Kenny MacAskill.

Jeremy Purvis:

With regard to Mr Alexander's e-mail, I am not familiar with what the courts have decided. However, there is an anomaly if the courts have decided that companies—limited or otherwise—have human rights, despite there being small limited companies or charitable limited companies that cannot pay solicitors to represent them and therefore cannot be represented in court. I do not think that the term "professional body" would extend to an organisation such as the Federation of Small Businesses, so I do not think that that will be relevant to the point in hand.

The Legal Profession and Legal Aid (Scotland) Bill will provide for advice and assistance to be given, not on a case-by-case basis but on a grant basis, so I wonder whether there will be some capacity to offer that assistance to limited companies, in particular to small limited companies. We could ask the Executive. That would not address all the petitioner's arguments, but it might address advice and assistance on the process, which would be an important step forward.

There may be consensus that we will look for other legislation to address the second aspect. If companies and individual directors of companies will be culpable for other matters, how they are represented will be a key component. If we can make the point on the first issue, that might represent progress.

The Convener:

I detect that the committee wishes me to write on its behalf to the Executive to seek clarity on the various points that have been made, particularly the last one—given that the minister talked about changes in the grant system. Of course, stage 3 of the Legal Profession and Legal Aid (Scotland) Bill has not yet taken place. We will write a letter if we get the relevant information quickly and the clerks take from the Official Report the comments that have been made. Do I have the committee's permission to write a fairly broad letter to the Executive on behalf of the committee, so that we can get a prompt response and return to the matter?

Jackie Baillie:

We should by all means ask the minister about the matter. I am not entirely convinced by the argument that legal aid should be given to small businesses, but it is perfectly legitimate to ask about it. The Executive's Legal Profession and Legal Aid (Scotland) Bill is going through the parliamentary process. If we get clarity from the Executive, that would be helpful for the purpose of definition and record.

Colin Fox:

I do not dissent from the proposal, but I suggest that we again remind the Executive of its commitment on commencement in March next year of sections 25 to 29 of the Law Reform (Miscellaneous Provisions) (Scotland) Act 1990. If there is any change to the timetable, we would be obliged if the Executive would flag that up for us.

The Convener:

I will ask the clerks to pull together a letter that we can circulate by e-mail on Thursday to all committee members. We would need to get a response to the clerks by Thursday evening so that the letter could go by hand.

The clerks will want to see the Official Report to ensure that they get all the nuances of everything that members have said. I suggest that we leave it at that and defer the matter to the future.

Members indicated agreement.

We now move into private session, as we agreed previously, to discuss a draft report.

Meeting continued in private until 16:54.