Local Government Committee, 04 Apr 2000

Meeting date: Tuesday, April 4, 2000

Official Report 182KB pdf

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Subordinate Legislation

Item 3 on the agenda is subordinate legislation. This should be pretty straightforward, as no members have indicated that they have any difficulty with the instruments. The choice is to agree the content of each instrument or to recommend that the instrument be annulled. We cannot make any changes or amend the instruments.

Kenny Gibson says that we should go for annulment.

I say that we agree them.

I have to go through each one individually. Do not be impatient.

The Local Government (Discretionary Payment and Injury Benefits) (Scotland) Amendment Regulations 2000 (SSI 2000/77) has been included in the papers, but is not on the agenda, so we will leave it until the meeting on 25 April. The lead committee will not report until 8 May.

As I go through the instruments, I will ask members to agree to the recommendation. Please do not nod your head, because the Official Report cannot record nodding.

It can record laughter.

Yes, and it can also record Kenny Gibson making funny faces at me. Please remember that Sir David Steel reads all the reports. That is you down not to be called next week, Kenny.

The first instrument is the Non-Domestic Rate (Scotland) Order 2000 (SSI 2000/39). Are we all agreed on that instrument?

Yes.

The next instrument is the Commissioner for Local Administration in Scotland (Expenses) Regulations 2000 (SSI 2000/48). Are we all agreed on that instrument?

Members indicated agreement.

Yo.

Did you say no, Kenny? You must not do that. If you say no it changes the whole thing.

He said "Yo" not "No".

Well please make that clear. Either agree or disagree. Both of you are very badly behaved today.

We have a very internationalist approach to culture.

The third instrument is the Commissioner for Local Administration in Scotland (Designation) Order 2000 (SSI 2000/51). Are we all agreed on that instrument?

Members indicated agreement.

The next instrument is the Non-Domestic Rating (Unoccupied Property) (Scotland) Amendment Regulations 2000 (SSI 2000/55). Are we all agreed on that instrument?

Members indicated agreement.

The next instrument is the Valuation for Rating (Decapitalisation Rate) (Scotland) Regulations 2000 (SSI 2000/56). Are we all agreed on that instrument?

Members indicated agreement.

The next instrument is the Non-Domestic Rating (Rural Areas and Rateable Value Limits) (Scotland) Amendment Regulations 2000 (SSI 2000/57). Are we all agreed on that instrument?

Members indicated agreement.

The next instrument is the Valuation for Rating (Plant and Machinery) (Scotland) Regulations 2000 (SSI 2000/58). Are we all agreed on that instrument?

Members indicated agreement.

The final instrument is the Local Government Pension Scheme (Management and Investment Funds) (Scotland) Amendment Regulations 2000 (SSI 2000/74). Are we all agreed on that instrument?

Members indicated agreement.

At a meeting a month ago, the minister presented some negative statutory instruments on utilities. I asked a question that the minister did not understand, despite the fact that he is a mathematician. He assured me that I would be responded to later that day. Eight days ago, the Executive told me that a response had been posted to me, but I still have not received it.

I asked the same thing as a written question, but it has not been replied to.

I have done that as well.

We received a response last week and we have circulated it to members.

I have not received it.

We will see whether we have to send it out again.

Some of the instruments are technical; others are not. Although they are important, we are given inadequate background information. For example, one was about rural small businesses and another was about non-domestic rating. It would be useful to know how many people are affected by such instruments and so on.

That is why the instruments are sent out to members. You can read them and ask for more information if it would help you. I understand that wish, as Bristow Muldoon and I, as members of the Subordinate Legislation Committee, are always asking for the instruments to be more understandable or for the explanatory notes to be fuller.

Excuse my ignorance, but I thought that the negative instruments were basically a fait accompli and that it was impossible to do anything with them other than reject them or accept them.

I do not think that it is helpful for the note from the Executive to use terms such as "around £1.5 billion". That kind of terminology invites questions and might cause people to wonder what we are doing.

We talked about that figure in the Subordinate Legislation Committee this morning. It has been picked up on. If any members find things like that in any instruments or explanatory notes, they should ask for clarification.

Members can agree the content of each instrument or recommend that the instrument be annulled, which I suspect we would not want to do. We must all read them in advance and decide whether clarification is required. We could ask civil servants to explain them to the committee next time.

That would be too late to ask about that figure, though.

The figure was asked about this morning.

I remember the good old days when we used to get ministers to come before us.

We do not need ministers to explain the instruments to us.

Statutory instruments are important. Through them, ministers use powers that they have been granted to amend legislation. It is important that people read them and understand what they mean. Parliament has a right to reject them if it is felt that the Executive is using its powers in a way that we do not approve of.

Trish Godman and I are members of the Subordinate Legislation Committee, so we are perhaps more comfortable with the instruments than many members of the Parliament are. It might be useful to arrange a briefing on the different types of statutory instrument, which would cover subjects such as which ones can be amended and the way in which they progress.

I close this part of the meeting and ask the public and the Official Report staff to leave.

Meeting continued in private until 17:03.