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Chamber and committees

Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee

Meeting date: Wednesday, October 2, 2013


Contents


Draft Budget Scrutiny 2014-15

The Convener

Item 4 is continuation of our scrutiny of the Scottish Government’s draft budget for 2014-15. We will take evidence from the Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Employment and Sustainable Growth, John Swinney. He is joined by John Mason, who is director of business, and Mary McAllan, who is director of energy and climate change in the Scottish Government. I welcome you all.

Mr Swinney, do you want to make an introductory statement before we get into questions?

The committee will be familiar with the information that I set out to Parliament in the statement on the budget. I am happy to let that stand and to answer questions.

The Convener

Thank you.

Obviously, some time has been allocated to this agenda item, but I am conscious that we cannot run past 2 o’clock. I hope that we will not take up all that time, so I remind members to keep questions focused and to the point. Answers in the same vein would be helpful in allowing us all to have some lunch.

We will cover the broader economy, support for small and medium-sized enterprises, renewable energy, questions around employability and skills and the budget’s impact on ethnic minorities. We will move on to examine how the national performance framework is working, and issues around energy efficiency and fuel poverty. I dare say that other matters will come up.

We will start with broader economic issues.

Chic Brodie

Good afternoon. Given the divergence of views on whether we are in an economic recovery and on whether we are about to see another housing bubble, with the consequences that that might have, will you expand on your view of the UK economy and its relationship to your budget plans for next year and thereafter?

John Swinney

First, my view is that we are in an economic recovery. It remains a fragile recovery, but we are undoubtedly recovering.

In the budget statement in September, I set out a number of the key indicators that the Government would look at in order to assess the economy’s performance, including employment, unemployment and economic growth. Crucially, much of the atmosphere around the economy is created by the sentiment in the business community and attitudes to investment. There is survey evidence available: I refer in particular to the Bank of Scotland purchasing managers’ index. I think that Parliament appreciates that I rely significantly on it as a test of business confidence, because I think that it is a very robust measurement. Economic recovery is taking place according to those indicators, but we have to be careful not to overstate the case. It is therefore essential that the budget for 2014-15 remain absolutely focused on delivering economic recovery, which is what the measures that I have set out are designed to do.

Secondly, we must ensure that we do not take steps that in any way undermine recovery. It is clear that there is a very active debate on the help-to-buy scheme, which the United Kingdom Government has initiated. We have introduced a revised version of that scheme, which we consider to be appropriate to the circumstances of, and needs in, the Scottish economy.

We must be careful that we have the proper balance in the economy in respect of what can fuel growth, and it is essential that we have a much more broadly based recovery that encourages support for a range of key sectors in the economy. On Monday, for example, I did some work in the Highlands to promote support for, and expansion of, the life sciences sector, which is a very significant research and manufacturing sector for the Scottish economy. Equally, our focus on renewables is about encouraging greater research and manufacturing capability.

We are at a point at which very careful stewardship is required for economic progress, but I think that recovery is under way. We have to take care to nurture that recovery and not to overstate it.

Chic Brodie

Last week, I attended a dinner with the Industrial and Power Association. There is a lot of optimism in respect of the opportunities that it will be afforded over the next few years, but one concern is the level of general funding that is available for capital investment. What discussions have you had with the appropriate funding authorities—the banks—on funding for those investment opportunities?

John Swinney

We talk constantly to the banks that are active in the Scottish marketplace, and we encourage banks that are not currently active in it to become so. Our ensuring the competitive availability of bank finance to support investment is crucial for enabling companies to make their decisions about investment.

My assessment of the availability of finance is that there is clearly greater access to finance today than there was, say, two years ago. I am also confident that strong business propositions are able to attract bank finance, although the banks’ propositions might still be on terms that companies are not prepared to take on. However, the competitiveness of a bank’s offering within the marketplace is a slightly different question, which is why we encourage more participants to come into the marketplace.

The other factor that I think has changed—the Bank of Scotland’s PMI highlights this—is that companies are now more confident about investment than they were two years ago; generally, they are more prepared to commit to investment, which is to be welcomed. However, there are still significant challenges in terms of the availability of bank finance, and the Government continues a very active dialogue with the banking institutions to encourage availability.

Chic Brodie

If I may, I will dwell on capital investment rather than resource spend. We heard evidence last week, or the week before, on the Government’s continuing plans to shift spend to capital. There was a suggestion that that is a misplaced allocation because of leakage from increased capital spend. What view was or is being taken of leakage from capital, as opposed to leakage from resource spend?

John Swinney

My first point is that the Government has gone to great lengths over the past five years to prioritise capital investment where we can. We supplement our capital departmental expenditure limit applications with a variety of other funding mechanisms to boost capital expenditure, including resource-to-capital transfers, use of the regulated asset base, non-profit distributing programmes’ capital receipts and, from 2015-16, the borrowing powers that Parliament will acquire.

We have taken steps as a Government to expand the sources of capital investment that we utilise and we do that because of the benefit of capital expenditure on the long-term health of the economy and the economic impact that can arise as a consequence. We also do it because improvement of the country’s infrastructure contributes to Scotland’s long-term economic health.

An example of the rail infrastructure improvement that we have undertaken is the Airdrie to Bathgate line, which has opened up very significant labour market mobility opportunities for people in West Lothian to access the west of Scotland labour market more conveniently, and for people in the east end of Glasgow to access the east of Scotland labour market much more conveniently. Those factors are part of the economic infrastructure; they contribute to competitiveness and economic mobility within our society. That is our rationale for prioritising capital expenditure.

I understand that, but has the multiplier effect of capital versus resource been established?

John Swinney

Yes. Capital expenditure has a higher economic multiplier than resource expenditure has. Those factors are taken into consideration by the Government when we prioritise at a time when our capital budget is reducing. Should we act to get that budget back up to where it would have been, or to exceed that? Do we think that that is the right thing to do? Of course we do, because capital expenditure has a more significant multiplier than resource expenditure.

Clearly, we cannot spend everything on capital because we need to pay staff to run hospitals, schools and so on. We have to strike a sensible balance while recognising the greater economic impact as a central part of our assessment.

Can I ask two more small questions?

You are moving on; Mike MacKenzie has a supplementary on the broader issue of capital and revenue.

Mike MacKenzie

When we look at the data, it seems that over the past few years the Scottish economy has been diverging from the rest of the UK, and that performance—based on whatever criteria we use—seems to be slightly better than the rest of the UK. Do you attribute that to the shift from resource to capital that has been the theme of the spending review?

John Swinney

The statistics speak for themselves. Based on the last data that were available prior to the budget statement, Scottish gross domestic product grew by 1.2 per cent, compared to 0.3 per cent in the UK as a whole. Prioritisation of capital investment has been at the heart of that performance.

We have argued consistently for the importance of ensuring that we sustain investment in the capital assets of the country; I think that we are seeing the fruits of that. Obviously, that percolates into improvements in employment levels and reductions in unemployment, into the bargain.

If you had more flexibility—more powers, if you like—what would you like to do?

John Swinney

One of the core interventions that I would make if I had more responsibility would be on the level of capital expenditure. We would have sustained a much more significant level of capital expenditure, had we had the option to do so. I have made no secret of that and I think that we would have seen a more beneficial economic impact than the one that we have seen.

The Convener

On the leakage that Chic Brodie touched on, we have heard quite a lot of concern from witnesses about how much capital spend is not actually making its way into the broader economy. To give you an example, it has been suggested that for the new Forth crossing project—the Queensferry crossing as we have to call it now—400 Spanish workers are coming over to live in temporary accommodation. Is that something that you are familiar with? Is that a concern?

John Swinney

I am certainly aware that there are people from other countries working in Scotland. When I go to the supermarket in Blairgowrie, I sometimes feel as if I am in a supermarket in Bratislava, given the buzz that is going on round about me. People moving to seek employment is economic mobility.

I am keen to explore the committee’s concerns about leakage. We are undertaking capital expenditure projects the length and breadth of the country and a substantial number of Scotland-based contractors are involved in construction projects around the country. As a result of competitive tendering processes, companies from outwith Scotland succeed in winning tenders, but that is the consequence of a free market. If the committee is going to recommend curtailing the free market, that will certainly be something for the Official Report to capture. The economic footprint and impact of the capital expenditure programme are significant throughout the country.

The Convener

The Government’s programme is very much based on the principle that in creating infrastructure, capital spend will create jobs. However, the point that some witnesses have made to us is that if a proportion of those jobs are going not to people who are Scottish residents but to people who come here and live in temporary accommodation, most of that money will not be spent here but will be sent back home. Are the multipliers that you are using accurate? Does the Scottish Government assess where the people who are working on the infrastructure projects are from and where the spending is going?

12:15

John Swinney

As far as I am aware, we do not assess where people working on such projects are from. We certainly monitor performance on procurement success by companies. In the data that I have on procurement, 80 per cent of the successful businesses that won contracts through public contracts Scotland, which is the portal that advertises all public sector work in Scotland, had Scottish addresses. I can give the committee the comfort of that data.

Is that 80 per cent of the value of the contracts or of the number of contracts?

That is a percentage of the number of contracts.

Do we know the breakdown in terms of value?

I do not have the value figures in front of me, but we will explore whether we can provide the committee with them.

Chic Brodie

I am sure that if we do that exercise we will also do the corollary, which is to find out how much we enjoy from Scots engineers working in Brazil, Nigeria and elsewhere. That is a difficult exercise. I understand the point that you were trying to make, convener, but I think that it might be slightly misplaced.

There are two particular drivers that I think are important. One is business start-ups and the other is exports. Given the current economic environment, the business start-up level and survival rates are perhaps not what we wish them to be. We had conversations with representatives of Scottish Enterprise and Highlands and Islands Enterprise in Irvine on Monday. What is the Government’s emphasis with those agencies in terms of increasing the focus on business start-ups that are in the pipeline?

On exports and international marketing, I raised a question on Monday with Mr Roughead regarding VisitScotland’s budget for the year: I recently travelled to Brussels, and I noted that there is nothing about Scotland in Brussels airport. That might be because of a particular decision, but I wonder how much emphasis is given to those agencies, in budget terms, to promulgate our need for increased exports.

John Swinney

On business start-ups, the committee is very familiar with the structure that we have in place for business development in Scotland, which is predicated on advice being available, through the business gateway, to any individual in the country who wishes to start up a business in any locality. It is necessary to ensure that that service is effective for the needs of individuals in all parts of the country.

The business gateway carries an obligation to identify companies that it considers have significant growth potential to Scottish Enterprise and to Highlands and Islands Enterprise, essentially to fuel a growth pipeline. I regularly discuss with Scottish Enterprise and HIE whether that dialogue is working effectively enough to highlight companies with growth potential, and whether we are getting behind them as quickly as we ought. I am confident that a company that is identified as having growth potential will be well served. I am not pretty confident but very confident that companies will be well served by our enterprise agencies, which will support them through their development journey.

I see representatives of a lot of companies and I hear a lot of good feedback, so I am very confident on that point. I constantly scrutinise whether we are establishing the right connections from the business gateway to the pipeline. Companies will then be supported by the enterprise agencies to develop their economic footprint and their effectiveness.

We remain open to considering additional ideas beyond that structure. As the committee will be aware, I have put in place resources to establish the EDGE—encouraging dynamic growth entrepreneurs—fund, which is a competitive proposition that encourages start-ups to compete for resources that can then be used to support business development. That programme is well supported by a number of our leading entrepreneurs and is closely connected to Entrepreneurial-Spark Ltd, which has contributed significantly to increasing the focus on entrepreneurship within Scotland.

Another side of our operations comes through the work of the universities, in partnership with Scottish Enterprise, on the converge challenge, which is a university-based competitive proposition, like the EDGE fund, that allows academics who are developing products and processes, with the idea of taking them into the business concept, to compete for development resources. When I attended the converge challenge awards event last week, I heard about a number of very impressive technologies that are emerging from our university base that are being encouraged to develop that competitive instinct. In addition, the Interface organisation is involved in providing comparative research on how the institutions can enable business development to be taken forward.

Given that combination of being open to additional elements that add value to the business development process—in my view, initiatives such as Entrepreneurial-Spark Ltd and the EDGE fund add extra impetus—and the willingness to look at other ventures that may come forward, coupled with our existing infrastructure, I am pretty confident that we have the right architecture for encouraging business start-ups. Obviously, I will always listen to the committee’s observations and those of colleagues around the country on that issue.

On exports, the current position is that about 80 per cent of VisitScotland’s budget is spent on marketing, so that is a pretty substantial proportion of what VisitScotland does. The approach to 2014 will be linked very much to opportunities arising out of the much greater awareness of the country that will come as a consequence of the Commonwealth games, the Ryder cup and the year of homecoming—as well as, I imagine, the constitutional process that we are going through.

With the greatest respect to Mr Brodie, I am not sure that airport posters are always the things that make people decide where they will visit. I am impressed by VisitScotland’s sophisticated approach to assessing what are the best messages and approaches to try to entice people to come to Scotland. For example, I thought that the “Surprise yourself!” campaign was enormously successful, with a very significant return on investment. Although the marketing budget for VisitScotland for 2014-15 is projected to be just over £50 million, VisitScotland’s ability to turn that into a much greater budget with much more impact is enormous. That helps to promote the country as a tourist destination.

On the export question, we provide very detailed support to companies to encourage more of them to export. It is always a mystery to me why one company exports while a comparable company does not. Where there is no good reason why one company is exporting and another is not, we need to try to encourage greater awareness and participation in that process.

Regarding airport posters, there is evidence that the subliminal and repetitive catching of the eye can have a major impact. That is why I used the example of airport posters, but thank you for that answer.

Dennis Robertson

Good afternoon, cabinet secretary. By the way, I am delighted to hear that you are a modern man who takes part in the supermarket shopping. You are to be applauded on that.

Obviously, small and medium-sized businesses are important to the Scottish economy and to our rural communities. In fact, SMEs are often the backbone of sustainability for our rural communities. Everyone would agree, I am sure, that the small business bonus scheme has been extremely successful in supporting such companies. However, what are the barriers to the start-up or growth of SMEs? We are hearing that they are still not getting the opportunity to grow because they cannot get appropriate lending from the banks. That just seems to be a barrier. What impact does that have on the budget and how you implement it?

John Swinney

There are a number of ways in which the Government and private sector can help business growth in Scotland. First, the Government can help SMEs by maintaining the small business bonus scheme, which offers practical assistance with companies’ costs. Secondly, it can make available convenient and easy-to-access training interventions and employment support incentives to make it easier for companies to take on extra staff. The thought of taking on one other person might seem rather pedestrian, but it can be a huge undertaking if a small business is a sole trader. We have to be alert and make sure that our programmes are focused and easy to access.

Thirdly, we can make available business advice. Essentially, that is what I look to the business gateway to provide in all localities. Some SMEs will become account managed companies with Scottish Enterprise because they have such potential in the marketplace. Some months ago, I visited a two-person Scottish Enterprise account managed company in Edinburgh. Why is a two-person company an account managed company? Because it has such a tremendous business idea that it has great prospects of success. We can give businesses that advice.

Fourthly, we can give access to certain investment opportunities and funds over which Scottish Enterprise presides through ventures such as the Scottish Investment Bank and other funds.

There is therefore a range of different ways in which we can provide assistance. Ultimately, the banks will have to make a judgment about whether they are contributing to business growth through lending facilities. In my earlier answer to Mr Brodie, I made it clear that we maintain regular dialogue with the banking sector to make sure that it is alert and alive to the requirements of the marketplace. We also use the evidence and information that we have when we think that the sector’s performance is poor to highlight how it could be made stronger and more effective.

Dennis Robertson

Do you think that the events that you have mentioned as happening in 2014—the Ryder cup, the Commonwealth games, homecoming, and the world sheepdog championships, which are coming to Scotland for the first time—will provide an opportunity for small businesses to take part? Will 2014 open the door to them and allow them to access greater finance, especially in the hospitality sector?

John Swinney

Those events are crucial because they provide opportunities for people to visit Scotland and there will be spin-off benefits to local organisations as a consequence. For my sins, I recently took part in the Perth kilt run. At the end of that auspicious day, as I either raced or stumbled over the finishing line, there was a great paraphernalia of entertainment, activities and businesses providing catering services to the event, which attracted several thousand people. All the catering companies were local SMEs, and many of them started their business at the farmers market in Perth. They have gone up through the different levels of going into premises and supplying organisations and now they are able to come to such events to provide excellent services and quality produce.

Those events are very important, and that applies across the country. I know that colleagues have many events in their localities. The events are also important for the VisitScotland narrative as it explains to people from further afield what goes on in Scotland and what events they can participate in. Establishing those local connections is important to that narrative.

12:30

Do you expect the business gateway and Scottish Enterprise, for instance, to be slightly more proactive in 2014?

John Swinney

I expect the business gateway and Scottish Enterprise always to be proactive. In addition, local chambers of commerce are running events in their localities on how companies can make something of the Commonwealth games opportunity. Not just Glasgow Chamber of Commerce but chambers of commerce around the country are doing that, because they can see the opportunities that will arise. There should be every opportunity for our networks, and I applaud Scottish Chambers of Commerce’s activities to get companies to see the possibilities.

Alison Johnstone has to leave at 1 pm, so I will bring her in.

Alison Johnstone

Thank you, convener. I want to touch on a couple of issues that have been raised. We heard that the transfer from resource to capital is designed to boost the economy. In relation to modern apprenticeships, construction is still severely gender segregated. That applies to construction as a whole—there are women involved in construction, but are they at the front end making a good living or are they in less well-paid jobs?

We also talked about SMEs. It is well known that far fewer women than men are involved in business start-ups and so on. There are opportunities in that regard that women are not enjoying. Given that the national performance framework seeks to provide

“opportunities for all to flourish”,

is the Government doing enough to ensure that women have the chance to obtain sustainable, secure jobs and play their part in the recovery?

John Swinney

The Government must be constantly focused on doing more in that area. The statistics on modern apprenticeship starts in 2012-13 show a split of 57 per cent male and 43 per cent female, so there is clearly an imbalance. The imbalance is not as marked as it is in other walks of life, but the difference is not acceptable.

We are taking steps to try to encourage and improve women’s participation in the labour market, for example through our incremental steps on childcare support, which is another part of the budget. There are other, specific interventions through the work that Angela Constance has taken on in addition to her youth employment responsibilities. Those interventions arose from, in particular, the women’s employment summit that we convened with the Scottish Trades Union Congress, which highlighted many issues.

We have put in place measures to support younger women to enter careers in science and engineering, through the careerwise Scotland initiative. We are also working closely with Professor Sara Carter, from the Hunter centre for entrepreneurship at the University of Strathclyde, and organisations such as Women in Business—I think that that is the right name—to encourage more women to contemplate enterprise start-up and business leadership.

I accept that the Government must do more. We have a programme of activity to try to assist, but ministers recognise that we need to make more significant progress.

How robustly is the budget equality impact assessed? When you say, “We will spend this on this,” is there an overview of how that will afford the greatest employment opportunities to the greatest sector of society?

John Swinney

We carry out an equality impact assessment on the budget at portfolio and proposition level. The information is amassed and fed into the equality statement that I publish alongside the budget. It is a substantial piece of work to put that together.

The equality impact assessment is carried out at portfolio level in accordance with guidance that I put in place after consultation with the equality and budget advisory group. It brings together Angela O’Hagan of the women’s budget group, Professor Ailsa McKay of Glasgow Caledonian University, and the Scottish Human Rights Commission. The group meets civil servants to strengthen and to challenge what we do in this area. I see the members of the group at least annually. I have made it clear to Parliament on a number of occasions that I find that an extremely rewarding and challenging part of the budget process because, essentially, it involves taking a comprehensive look at what we are doing and testing it against equalities considerations. Those factors are all considered fully by ministers when we arrive at our choices in the budget.

The equality and budget advisory group has been generous in what it has said about how the Government goes about that part of its work. I set a great deal of store by the dialogue that I have with the group as we formulate our choices.

Alison Johnstone

As you will know, the national performance framework seeks to provide

“opportunities for all to flourish”,

but there are those who believe—and this is a concern that I fully understand—that there is still an extremely narrow focus on economic considerations. For example, Scottish Environment LINK has called for the removal of “increasing sustainable economic growth” from the single purpose, pointing out that that is just one of many means to the goal of flourishing and is not an end in itself.

What consideration is given to the broader aspects of the national performance framework when it comes to the awarding of contracts, for example? Does the Government look at the NPF when it is awarding contracts?

John Swinney

The Government’s purpose has been defined as to create

“opportunities for all to flourish through increasing sustainable economic growth.”

I accept that this is a matter of judgment and that there is no precise science that can justify what I am about to say, but my judgment is that, fundamentally, that is a pretty balanced approach for the Government to take. We recognise the necessity of delivering opportunities for all. That brings with it a requirement to tackle regional differences in economic performance. If I look at some of the graphical information that has been provided to the committee—as with all such things, with the national performance framework I tend to look at the “performance worsening” bits before I look at the “performance improving” bits—the difference between the three local authority areas with the highest employment rates and the three with the lowest rates is going in the wrong direction. That represents a direct challenge from the NPF to the aspiration of the Government’s purpose to deliver opportunities for all to flourish. Unfortunately, there is a growing gap between the higher-performing and the lower-performing areas of the country.

To take that as an example, that leads the Government to take action to ensure that, in the areas in which it is performing poorly, it assists by maximising access to employment, creating opportunities for people to move forward and undertaking regeneration work. The NPF informs those policy choices.

I could not say that it goes as far as to inform how we allocate contracts, because contract allocation is done through the procurement process but, to me, the procurement policy whereby we say that we want it to be a presumption that there will be a community benefit clause in our public sector contracts represents a response to some of the issues that are thrown up for us by the NPF.

I think that Hanzala Malik—

John Swinney

I would like to add to the answer that I gave on equalities issues. I go to the Equal Opportunities Committee every year—I imagine that I will go there this year. It has had a sustained and probing interest in equalities and in strengthening the equalities assessment that the Government undertakes, and I welcome that dialogue.

Hanzala Malik wants to come in on the issue of equalities.

Hanzala Malik

Good afternoon and welcome to the committee, cabinet secretary. I will ask about two equalities issues.

We are both aware of the wish among many of our councils up and down the country and in the Scottish Government for employers and bodies that win contracts that are given out to demonstrate that they are equal opportunities employers, but there seems to be no way of policing that. When someone gets a contract, no one checks what is done. Many contractors are failing to meet our wish for the employment that they provide. What is your view on that? Do you agree that regulation is needed to ensure that someone physically checks what is done?

We have a growing ethnic minority community in Scotland—we have people from more than 140 communities—but we are not reaching out to it on employment opportunities. What is done is sketchy and scattered and is not uniform across Scotland. People are not coming through as a result of initiatives. What safeguards will you introduce to ensure that more rigorous action is taken than in the past?

John Swinney

One point about acting on employment issues is that we get into territory where we do not have legislative competence. Many employment issues are reserved to the UK Government. However, we have control over aspects of the procurement and contracting regime, through which we can apply some constraints. The context is that what we can do is limited because of the reservation of employment law, but I do not want that to sound as if I am saying that we can do nothing. We can do plenty of things on contract activity.

On Mr Malik’s core point, if an employer has made a commitment as part of a procurement contract to employ a certain number or range of people, a certain skill base or the long-term unemployed, for example, that should be monitored as a matter of course, because that is a contractual commitment. That is as important as whether the job will be finished on the Friday when the contractor said that it would be finished and whether it will be done for the agreed amount of money. Such contractual commitments should be monitored. That is purely and simply a matter of contract performance.

I have answered questions on, for example, monitoring regional selective assistance payments that are made to companies. Such payments are based on particular employment commitments, which we monitor. If those commitments are not honoured, the money is not paid or is reclaimed. I signal clearly that commitments that have been entered into should be complied with, which should be monitored by all concerned.

Many people from ethnic minorities participate fully in our economy and that is very welcome. We talked about that earlier. Of course, we can do more to encourage that participation. That is very much part of the work that Angela Constance does, which is promotional and evangelising work to encourage participation in the economy by a broad cross-section of our society.

The issue rather goes back to the point that Alison Johnstone raised about the opportunities for all scheme. That has to mean opportunities for all, in every part of the country and from every ethnic background, to ensure that they fulfil their economic potential. The Government is keen to ensure that we support that process.

12:45

Hanzala Malik

My first question was on how we monitor the situation, and my point was that that is not being done. I am looking to you to try to find a system in which we ensure that it is actually done. Although most employers have glossy magazines and contracts that state that they employ people from minority communities, in practice, that is not happening and no one is challenging that.

My second point on employment is that, as you will know, 10 per cent of the community is from ethnic minorities, but the figures on the number of people from ethnic minorities who are employed do not reflect that. Clearly, something is wrong. Before the attack on the twin towers, we were proactive in Scotland in trying to ensure that we carried all the communities with us but, after it, the whole thing dampened down, and it was not sexy any more to talk about minority issues. The position has not really recovered. I am not just saying that—the facts and figures actually prove it. If we ask any major employer about employees from minority communities, we find that the figures are desperate. Something needs to be done. What are we going to do to ensure that the issue is addressed?

John Swinney

A moment ago, I talked about the work that Angela Constance is taking forward. She is involved in direct discussion with employers about their commitments to take on new staff. That is about young people and people from ethnic minorities, and trying to tackle the gender issues that we are concerned about. I assure Mr Malik that that is part of what the Government is doing. I will look again at whether our enterprise agencies and Skills Development Scotland could take further steps to support the process.

I hear what Mr Malik says about the sense after the twin towers incident, but I think that, as a country, we generally take a positive attitude to the involvement of people from different backgrounds in our economy and society. The Government will do all that it can to support that process.

I appreciate that—thank you.

Dennis Robertson has a supplementary question on equalities.

Dennis Robertson

I endorse the statement that the cabinet secretary made about the Equal Opportunities Committee. I am a former member of that committee and during its meetings asked the cabinet secretary questions, so he will not be surprised that I am going to ask about people with disabilities. Of course, they go across the gender spectrum and the spectrum of ethnic minorities. Are the figures collated only on people with disabilities as a separate group, or are they collated in terms of, say, women with disabilities or people from ethnic minorities with disabilities? Obviously, the approach will impact on the figures for women or people from ethnic minorities who go into apprenticeships, for example.

John Swinney

At the moment, I cannot say to Mr Robertson whether there is that cross-referencing or gender disaggregation on disability, but I would be surprised if there was not. Similarly, I cannot answer today whether there is a disaggregation in relation to people with disabilities and ethnic minority status, but I will check those points and advise the committee.

Again, the issue goes back to the range of interventions that we make. Yesterday, I opened a new facility for the organisation Forth Sector in Duddingston in Edinburgh. Its core business is to train people with disabilities and learning difficulties to get into employment, in a focused and supportive fashion. A number of supported businesses work at part of the organisation, and it operates under a social enterprise umbrella. The committee will be aware of the Government’s priority to expand and develop the social enterprise sector within Scotland and, at a personal level, my determination to make sure that that is done.

Yesterday, I saw some of the most encouraging examples of how people with disabilities can enter the labour market and make a marvellous contribution to our economy with just a little bit of adaptation and additional support. Seeing that in practice made for a most invigorating visit. In taking forward our interventions, the fact is that, in among all the budget issues that we wrestle with, we have maintained a level of financial support to the third sector in the Government’s budget. That shows that we think that it will contribute to the achievement of our objectives and our purpose of creating opportunities for all to flourish.

Margaret McDougall

Good afternoon. I want to focus my questions on modern apprentices. How ready are they for work? Are we giving them the right skills for the opportunities that are out there? I note from the level 2 figures that there is quite a substantial reduction in the funding for employability, skills and lifelong learning, from £267.2 million in 2013-14 to £239.9 million in 2014-15—and the figure reduces further in 2015-16. How are we going to match up-and-coming young people to the opportunities that are out there in the economy if we are reducing that budget?

John Swinney

First, I believe that, by the time young people have gone through modern apprenticeships, they are ready for work. The challenge in some cases is to make sure that young people are in an effective position to start some of the programmes. That is where pre-apprenticeship training is required to get young people into a position where they are ready to participate in the training programme. Once they are in the modern apprenticeship programme, I have every confidence in its ability to fulfil those requirements.

Some subsequent issues arise in relation to the points that you raised about whether young people are trained for the opportunities that exist in the country, and it is an on-going priority to make sure that we get that right. We go to a lot of trouble to try to garner information from Scotland’s business and industrial sectors to establish where demand is likely to come from and what opportunities are likely to arise, and to establish a match of skills training between what those sectors tell us, the placements that companies are able to offer and the training opportunities that our further and higher education sector can deliver.

That is an elaborate structure, and I do not for a moment suggest that we can deploy it with absolute precision in every circumstance, but we try to bring industry and providers together in dialogue to ensure that what is offered is right and appropriate. We have substantial completion levels for modern apprenticeships, and positive destinations are sustained as a consequence of them. For example, 92 per cent of modern apprenticeship completers are in work six months later. That is an encouraging indication of performance.

The other aspect of the modern apprenticeship programme that we wrestle with is that there will be demand, from time to time and from different sectors, for a more sophisticated level of skills training in the programme. We have taken steps to listen carefully to industry and to ensure that we can meet those expectations.

In relation to the budget line that Ms McDougall raised, the Government is taking forward an efficiency programme that principally lies with Skills Development Scotland and which is about ensuring that that organisation fulfils obligations on modern apprenticeships and training provision more efficiently. That is what is accounted for by the budget profile that has been set out on that line.

Thank you for that response.

The latest figures show that 13,000 more women were out of work in the last quarter. Are we meeting the employability targets for young people and women?

John Swinney

May I first make a further point on the budget line? Another specific issue is the one-off transfer for the youth employment Scotland initiative, which has come out of that line and gone elsewhere. That is another relevant factor.

We are seeing a reduction in the level of unemployment of young people, but clearly that remains a significant challenge for us. The very focused work that Angela Constance is taking forward is designed to ensure that we encourage the business community to recruit as many young people as it can. For example, at the end of August we went through a promotional exercise whose theme was the making young people your business campaign, which was designed to encourage and motivate employers to take on young people as part of a business expansion programme. There was wide participation in the programme, which we will sustain to see whether it adds further impetus to efforts to create employment opportunities.

Margaret McDougall

The question is how successful that programme is. The committee had an external meeting on Monday at which we met businesspeople in Irvine who reiterated that young people are not ready for work because basically they do not know how to read or write. The message was that they did not have the skills required for work. In that context, the reduction in funding for adult lifelong learning is concerning.

John Swinney

We are putting substantial resources into adult learning in a variety of areas, whether through European funding or through the funding that is available to the Government to support programmes at the local level. From time to time, I hear arguments about young people not being ready for work, but I have seen an awful lot of such claims disintegrate before my very eyes. We can put in place a lot of support to enable young people to be ready for employment. The Government has a range of interventions in place that can assist that process.

Margaret McDougall

There are a lot of interventions and agencies out there that are working with young people and adults to get them into work, but there does not seem to be any joined-up thinking on how they provide services, and it seems that not everyone knows about those services. There needs to be more joined-up thinking from agencies.

John Swinney

There are two different aspects. If people do not know about services, I would accept that we have a job of work to do to raise awareness. Campaigns such as the making young people your business campaign are designed to raise companies’ awareness.

13:00

I want to be absolutely clear with the committee that there is a very high intolerance level within the Government about services not being joined up. If the committee has suggestions about how we can join up services and where the gaps and disconnects exist, I will be delighted to receive them. I get frustrated when the Government spends a lot of its time, and I spend a lot of my time, working through organisations such as the Scottish employability forum to get everybody to work together. I totally accept the point that employers do not have the time to go around joining the dots. In the public sector, we have to join the dots for them. If that is not happening, I give the committee a commitment that the Government will make every endeavour possible to try to make it happen. If the committee has suggestions to make in that regard, I will receive them willingly.

At the workshop that I attended, an area manager for a supermarket said that no contact had been made with her about modern apprenticeships, which is hard to believe.

John Swinney

I am very happy to explore the specifics of that case. I assure the committee that Skills Development Scotland is very active in trying to ensure that we fully undertake the modern apprenticeship programme. In 2011-12, there were 26,427 modern apprenticeships, and in 2012-13, there were 25,691. The Government’s target was 25,000 in each year, so there is obviously full participation in the programme. However, I am happy to explore whether more can be done to extend communication in the area.

Hanzala Malik

A developer made the very helpful suggestion that if students went to them directly rather than to a college they could train them in-house. I thought that that would be music to Mike Russell’s ears—college waiting lists are so long that it would be very helpful if industry participated in that way. Perhaps we can explore the possibility of allowing some industries to work with colleges, so that youngsters go directly to employers and achieve qualifications through a college in their area at the same time. That would ease the pressure on student numbers; more important, it would let employers train people directly in the industries that need them. That would possibly be a win-win situation.

John Swinney

I will make two comments on that point. First, all modern apprentices have employed status in Scotland. Every one of those 25,691 people is employed, so companies already provide significant aspects of the training opportunities. Colleges provide some training, but employers provide a substantial amount of it.

Secondly, forgive me for disputing the point but we have been around the houses on college waiting lists. The Government has shifted the emphasis on to the college sector to ensure that more full-time education is provided in colleges. That is a beneficial step, as a consequence of which more people will be able to access the labour market.

Hanzala Malik

I do not want to score points, but I have constituents who are waiting for college places, so I speak from practical experience. I want to find a solution. I thought that the solution that I offered was a good one: not all courses need to be in college but colleges need to provide the qualifications. A student would enrol in college simply to ensure that the quality of education provided by the employer was of qualification standard; nevertheless, the individual would be qualified to work in industry. I thought that I was being helpful.

There are many points we could discuss around that solution. I have said my piece on college places.

Chic Brodie

On that point, when we were in Irvine on Monday, a couple of the businesses at the workshop that I chaired suggested that, instead of having modern apprentices or people involved in opportunities for all, it might be better to encourage businesses to take people on full time and train them in the company or the industry. I do not know whether that has been or might be discussed. It would take away some of the less-than-targeted argument about college places.

The point that I made about the employed status of modern apprentices is a fundamental one about the advantages of training individuals within the workplace.

We need to move on. We have not touched yet on energy efficiency, fuel poverty or energy more generally. I will bring in Marco Biagi, who is suffering a little. He will survive the next few minutes.

Marco Biagi (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)

I will do my best.

I will ask basically the same question as I asked last year about the fuel poverty budget. A large proportion of the overall spend is dependent on money coming through the energy company obligation scheme; the Scottish Government’s funding is, I believe, £79.2 million, and the intention is to bring it up to £200 million overall with ECO. What assurances are there that that money will come from the companies through the ECO scheme? Is there anything in the experience over the past year since I last asked the question to which you can point to provide further reassurance on that?

John Swinney

The manner of pursuing that is agreed with the energy companies. I am confident that we have got to a position where the schemes are working much more effectively than was the case. Several years ago, there was, to be blunt, a disconnect about the energy companies being able to fulfil their commitments because they simply did not know who would benefit from the interventions that they could make.

We have drawn together an approach of the Government working with local authorities and with the energy companies. The local authorities have a tremendous knowledge base about who would be more likely to benefit from the schemes. They are working effectively and drawing together the resources that we can contribute and those that can come from the ECO scheme into the bargain.

Marco Biagi

One of the concerns that has been raised is about the regularity of the Scottish Government’s reporting. Has that been raised with the Government through other channels? Are you considering the regularity of the reporting on the outturn through the Scottish Government’s £79.2 million?

John Swinney

We report to Parliament on our outturn expenditure on the resources for which we have responsibility. I am not aware of representations having been made to us about reporting on that wider programme, which would involve partnership with local authorities and the energy companies, although I am pretty sure that a statistical base must be available to capture that, principally because the energy companies have to fulfil their obligations.

I am not sure whether all that information comes together readily in one publishable format, but the different data sets will be available.

We have heard that figures for ECO are published almost monthly. Is it the Scottish Government’s aspiration to match that or come as close to that as possible?

I would want to consider whether we could fulfil a commitment to publish monthly figures. The Government will consider that point.

The lack of an obligation on the companies to report figures disaggregated by part of the United Kingdom has previously been a problem. Do we have a robust figure for the amount that they are spending in Scotland?

I am much more confident about the information that is available on what is spent in Scotland than I was two or three years ago. We have a much clearer position now.

Have you negotiated that figure with the companies directly or are they required to publish it by the regulations that govern the scheme?

They will be under an obligation to make a commitment across the United Kingdom. We have been able to negotiate with each of the energy companies a position on the programme that we are able to set out in the budget.

So that is one area in which it would have been helpful to have a scheme that was better designed for the interests of getting the statistics in Scotland.

Ensuring that we have interventions that are appropriate to our circumstances is a key part of what we would argue.

We have heard that the main factor that has driven fuel poverty has been the cost of energy. Do you agree?

It is a combination of the cost of energy and the need to improve the housing stock. Those are the factors that contribute to fuel poverty.

I promise that this is my last question, convener. Cabinet secretary, even if you had a blank cheque for energy efficiency, would you still come up against any non-financial barriers and, if so, what would they be?

John Swinney

One of the non-financial barriers is getting people to engage with the process satisfactorily. Loads of people are perfectly happy to take part in schemes to improve energy efficiency and reduce their bills, but lots of people who would benefit from full participation in the schemes do not participate. Trying to raise awareness and elicit commitment is part of the process.

The other material factor is the structure of our existing housing stock. If I recall correctly, one of the issues that we discussed when working on the land and buildings transaction tax was a fiscal incentive around energy efficiency. I was not persuaded by the argument, partly because of the significant volume of flatted dwellings that we have in Scotland. The existing housing stock needs everyone to agree on the steps that must be taken to deliver value for people. That issue, which is very relevant to Mr Biagi’s constituency, is another non-financial obstacle to overcome.

The Convener

We heard evidence from Energy Action Scotland and others about their concern that £10 million has been taken out of the fuel poverty budget to fund mitigation measures for the underoccupancy charge in housing. Can you explain your rationale for that, given the priority that fuel poverty should have as part of the Government’s agenda?

John Swinney

The rationale has essentially been about the uptake of the scheme given some of the processes that we have had to go through to secure agreement about the terms of the scheme with the UK Government. We identified that, in the current financial year, we are unlikely to be able to spend all the resources that we envisage will need to be spent, so we are able to redeploy the funds to deal with the consequences of the bedroom tax.

Was there not another way in which that money could have been spent to tackle fuel poverty?

We have to make decisions about the priorities that we want to focus on. We had the opportunity to take steps to tackle the bedroom tax, which affects members of the public today in Scotland, and we took that decision.

Lastly, I want to return to Marco Biagi’s point about the ECO scheme. According to your budget for the current year, energy companies should be investing £135 million in Scotland. Do you know whether that target is being met?

I do not think that I have a progress report on that in front of me, but I would certainly be happy to share that information with the committee.

That would be helpful.

The Scottish Government has a statutory requirement to eradicate fuel poverty by 2016. From the figures that we have seen and the way things are going, it looks as though we will not meet that target. Are you confident that we will?

We have a range of measures in place that we think can contribute towards tackling fuel poverty. We will monitor progress as we work towards later financial years.

13:15

One of the issues on the underspend was the time that it takes individuals to fill in the forms and acquire the funding. Has anything been done to correct that?

The Government tries to ensure that we make these schemes as accessible as possible to members of the public. If particular obstacles arise out of that, we will ensure that they are tackled.

Mike MacKenzie

I notice that you have extended the period for the renewable energy investment fund. I wondered whether that was a response to concerns in the industry—which I must admit I share—about the protracted process of energy market reform in the UK Government. Is that, along with related matters such as the insufficient pace of grid investment, grid connection charges that continue to be high and high transmission charges, leading to a situation in which we are unable fully to realise our renewable energy opportunities as quickly as we may have anticipated two or three years ago?

John Swinney

The Government has a clear strategic direction in the encouragement of renewable energy development. We have set that out over the lifetime of this Administration and taken steps to ensure that we establish clear leadership of the renewable energy sector in Scotland. That has been a focus for Scottish Enterprise, Highlands and Islands Enterprise and the Government’s own energy policy.

It would be fair to say that the development of technologies has been slower than we would have anticipated. Electricity market reform has undoubtedly contributed to that process. Equally, the wider economic climate and the investment climate have contributed to that process.

Those things—investment resources, the progress of grid connections, electricity market reform and technology development—are all tied up together. As a consequence, the demand for resources for Government investment has been slower than we would have anticipated and certainly slower than we had planned. As a consequence, we have extended the timescale over which we will undertake the renewables investment. That is a prudent and sensible thing to do.

You will have seen the Audit Scotland report on renewable energy that came out two weeks ago. You are projecting a bounce-back in 2014-15 to spending £130 million. Is it realistic to expect that uplift in funding within that timescale?

John Swinney

We are moving into a position in which we have more clarity. Let us take the factors that I have just set out to Mr MacKenzie, which are the investment climate in general—the economic confidence—electricity market reform and wider technological development. On all three of those factors, the marketplace is becoming stronger. Economic conditions are improving, electricity market reform is getting more securely founded and technology developments are continuing apace.

I believe that the approach that we are taking to extend the timescale for development is correct. I will of course keep it under review and keep Parliament advised about any conclusions that I arrive at out of that. What was interesting about the Audit Scotland report was the view that Audit Scotland took on the absolute clarity of the Government’s strategic direction. That is welcome, but trying to ensure that that is translated into practical investment decisions remains a priority for the Government.

Mark McDonald

I want to focus on a couple of areas. The first is getting more young people into work. We touched briefly on the modern apprenticeship scheme, which is a route into employment for a lot of Scotland’s young people, and we recently had the make young people your business initiative. When are we likely to get an indication of the initiative’s success in increasing the number of young people who are offered a job?

John Swinney

Youth employment statistics are very susceptible to variation during the calendar year. There is a significant spike immediately after the conclusion of the school year, which works its way through. The guidance makes it crystal clear that comparisons of youth employment data should never be made quarter by quarter and that there should be an annual like-for-like assessment of a given moment in a financial year.

Youth unemployment fell by 12,000 in the past 12 months. We will see month-by-month comparisons, but it is important that we undertake the annual comparison to test performance on reducing youth unemployment.

The Government looks to initiatives such as make young people your business, which follows on from other initiatives that we have taken, to give impetus to reducing youth unemployment and getting young people into employment.

Mark McDonald

I welcome the positive trend in youth employment in Scotland.

Another area that we looked at during our evidence taking on 18 September was in-work poverty and low pay. Obviously, there are limits to what the Scottish Government can do in legislation. The living wage is broadly welcomed. The Confederation of British Industry Scotland fell short of completely endorsing the living wage in the private sector, although it made noises about not being averse to a rise in the minimum wage. What can the Scottish Government do to encourage private employers to consider their pay scales for employees, given that those employers have a key role in helping us to rid ourselves of in-work poverty?

John Swinney

There are two things that the Government can do. First, we can lead by example. We are determined to do that where we can in the public sector. Ministers carry responsibility for large parts of the public sector, where we can meet our commitment to the living wage; in other parts of the public sector, we do not have operational control and cannot do that.

Secondly, we can take part in active dialogue with stakeholders to encourage private companies to follow the Government’s example. When I think about the rationale for all this and how staff participation is perhaps the most crucial factor in the success of any venture, it is clear that there is a strong argument that there is much to be gained by the private sector embracing the living wage.

Mark McDonald

In the workshop in Irvine in which I was involved, we explored support for Scottish businesses that want to grow. It has been suggested that Scottish businesses are quite good at being acquired but not as good at making acquisitions. Is there work that the Scottish Government can do to support businesses that want to expand in that way?

John Swinney

My worry is not that Scottish companies are unable to grow by acquisition—we have some good examples of Scottish companies that have grown in that way—but that Scottish companies that could grow and provide a greater contribution to the Scottish economy by anchoring their development here are acquired at a point when, if investment capital in the Scottish economy was more available, they could perhaps have developed and grown without acquisition. That is the bit that worries me.

I think that we lose too many companies of scale, capability and capacity because, although investment funds are available to encourage start-ups and modest developments, sources of money to provide transformational expenditure are, I fear, not available within the Scottish economy.

Is that something that—

John Swinney

My apologies to Mr McDonald, but I should have completed that answer.

What the Government is doing is structuring a range of different discussions to complete the funding profile so that, for every stage in the development of the company sector, we are encouraging participation within the marketplace to ensure that there are investment resources that can provide support in that fashion. That has been the subject of a great deal of discussion, involving the First Minister, myself and various interested parties in Scotland and further afield, to encourage that to be the case.

Mark McDonald

When we took evidence from Entrepreneurial Exchange, we heard that companies often do not have the seamless transition that they require between angel investment and venture capital. Is that something that the Government can assist with, or is that beyond the limit of what you can do?

John Swinney

We can assist with an element of that by ensuring that there is a complete profile of potential investment channels available within the marketplace in Scotland. That is something that we can do, and that is what our discussions are focused on doing.

Regarding the angel investment that Mr McDonald mentioned, in 20 years the angel community in Scotland has come from nothing to become substantial and a great asset to the Scottish economy. The fact that we can make that journey in a relatively short space of time is very encouraging indeed. We need to ensure that that is the case in all aspects of the economy.

Chic Brodie

I have a question on that issue. Funding is of course important and, as you rightly say, the growth and involvement of angel investment has been very substantial. Speaking from personal experience, I think that, although funding might be available, there is a lack of good business support—aside from what the major agencies do for high-growth companies—for issues such as knowledge transfer from university research and development. Are any conversations taking place on how we can help businesses to achieve the transformation that you have talked about?

John Swinney

It is important that we consider what progress has been made within the economy. We have lots of companies that grow and develop and get access to support from our enterprise agencies. In my travels around the country, I encounter more and more companies that are account managed by Scottish Enterprise or Highlands and Islands Enterprise that say to me that they feel well assisted in their growth journey—

I agree with you on that, but I am asking about the companies outwith that.

John Swinney

That comes back to my earlier response about the need to have the correct connections between business gateway, which should be looking at Scotland’s entire company base, and Scottish Enterprise, which also has an obligation on the issue.

I have also opened up this conversation with chambers of commerce, given the company base that they have. If a chamber of commerce thinks that a company has growth potential and is doing well, the chamber of commerce can ask the simple question of whether the company is account managed by Scottish Enterprise or HIE and, if it is not, the chamber of commerce can feed that information in so that the enterprise agency can make an assessment.

13:30

The judgment that we have made is to use a model of business development that is selective. As the public sector, we decide which companies we think have the best growth potential. I have broadened the discussion to involve dialogue with the banks because they are making an assessment about which companies have growth potential within the economy and I want us to be satisfied that in all circumstances we are able to properly capture the companies with growth potential within the economy.

The Convener

I will close with two questions that arise from the evidence that we took on Monday from Scottish Enterprise, Highlands and Islands Enterprise and VisitScotland. The first question is on the strategic forum. Are we on target to meet the strategic forum savings for the current year of £25 million?

We will certainly have to live within those constraints, so my answer is yes.

The Convener

That is a slightly qualified answer, but that is fine. Next year the savings are £40 million, and the year after that they are £40 million. We have identified that Scottish Enterprise, HIE, VisitScotland and SDS are finding £26 million in savings between them. Can we assume that it is therefore the Scottish Further and Higher Education Funding Council that is finding the extra £14 million in savings?

It will come from the funding council and Skills Development Scotland.

SDS was in the group that was making the £26 million in savings that I quoted. I think that SDS said that it was expecting to find £1 million in savings.

Sorry—in which financial year?

For next year.

For 2014-15. The numbers that I have are slightly—not substantially—adrift from that. The five participants are Scottish Enterprise, HIE, VisitScotland, the Scottish funding council and SDS.

And that adds up to £40 million?

Yes.

The Convener

I will be keeping a close eye on that one.

One thing that came out of the evidence from Scottish Enterprise was that, in its published plan on income for the 2013-14 financial year, it has a shortfall in income projection of £26.3 million. It is proposing to make that up through asset sales. When we put to it that that was a fire sale of assets, it denied it. However, it accepted that it was not a good time to be selling assets, given the financial situation.

My final question is: do you think that it is sensible, in the current climate, for a Government agency to be selling capital assets to fund a shortfall in its income?

John Swinney

In selling any asset, Scottish Enterprise will be obliged to satisfy itself that it can secure the appropriate market value for that asset. If it is not securing that market value price, it should not be selling the asset in question. Those are the rules that are in place.

The Convener

I understand that, but I am sure that you will understand, cabinet secretary, that if we are talking about sales of commercial property holdings, for example, now is not a good time to dispose of them because the market is very low. Perhaps if Scottish Enterprise held on to those holdings for two, three, four or five years, the market might improve. It is similar to when a former UK Government sold the gold reserves at an all-time low gold price and perhaps did not get the best value for money for the taxpayer.

John Swinney

I completely accept your point about the gold price. I think that a judgment has to be made about individual sales of property, but the tests that I set out have to be applied in every single case. That is the requirement of the system.

Scottish Enterprise will generate income in other areas. For example, it will be on the receiving end of a capital gain from the acquisition of companies in which it has shareholdings. That may contribute to some of this area of activity into the bargain. A judgment has to be made on the appropriateness and the value of any transaction that can be taken forward.

So it does not concern you that Scottish Enterprise is selling capital assets to fund a shortfall in income.

John Swinney

We have to be careful how we view this. Part and parcel of the financing of Scottish Enterprise is that it will be using other sources of income beyond grant-in-aid. That is not something new; part of the character of Scottish Enterprise for more than 20 years has been that it generates income as a consequence of some of its other business activities. However, ultimately, when it comes to the issue of property disposals, Scottish Enterprise has to make a case-by-case judgment about whether the tests can be fulfilled in relation to property disposals.

I am sure that Scottish Enterprise can get market value, but the market is well down, as we know.

Chic Brodie

On that point, in South Ayrshire we have been trying to encourage the council to dispose of its assets because, if it does not sell them, it will have substantial on-going maintenance and energy costs—costs that horrified me as regards the liability that the council will incur. Therefore, we cannot just consider the market value. I hope that, working with the Scottish Futures Trust, the council will be able to achieve more than market value.

That would of course apply if we were dealing with an asset that is unlet and empty. If we are dealing with let properties, it is a completely different picture.

Cabinet secretary, do you remain encouraged by the level of investment that is coming into Scotland at the moment, especially in areas such as oil and gas?

John Swinney

I remain very encouraged and the Ernst & Young attractiveness index highlighted that we are at a 15-year high with regard to the number of projects. As Mr Robertson will be aware from his own constituency environment, the oil and gas sector in the north-east of Scotland is developing very significantly and it is expanding its reach into other parts of Scotland. Substantial oil and gas activity is now happening in other parts of the country because of the congestion in and around Aberdeen. Obviously, that spreads the economic benefit to other parts of the country.

As there are no further questions, we will call it a day. I thank the cabinet secretary and his officials for attending.

Meeting closed at 13:36.