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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 11 October 2025
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Displaying 3424 contributions

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Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“Adult Disability Payment”

Meeting date: 1 October 2025

Richard Leonard

My understanding is that the OBR forecasts, which are built into the Scottish Fiscal Commission forecasts, relate to the situation before the reforms were shelved. There was a revolt against the proposed reforms to PIP, which led to the brake being put on and Stephen Timms being appointed to head up a review. For the next year or so, there will not, as I understand it, be reforms to PIP. There will need to be a revision, so Joe FitzPatrick is right—the £770 million is based on the world as it looked like it was going to be, not the world as it currently is.

I will bring Joe FitzPatrick back in a bit later, but I will now invite Graham Simpson to put some questions to you.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“Adult Disability Payment”

Meeting date: 1 October 2025

Richard Leonard

You mentioned fraud and error risk, and the committee has considered the extent of that in previous evidence sessions. I suppose that, potentially, there is a tension between a draconian anti-fraud approach that comes down tough and a system that is designed on the principles of dignity and giving people a helping hand. How is that potential dilemma reconciled?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“Adult Disability Payment”

Meeting date: 1 October 2025

Richard Leonard

One of the other paragraphs in the report that struck me is paragraph 82, in which you reflect on the fact that the rate of award for ADP in Scotland has often been lower than the rate of award for PIP in England and Wales. What does that tell us? Could there have been instances in which people were underpaid and the award was not as it should have been? Could people have been in receipt of less than they were entitled to?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“Adult Disability Payment”

Meeting date: 1 October 2025

Richard Leonard

Agenda item 2 is consideration of the Auditor General for Scotland’s report, “Adult Disability Payment”. I am very pleased to welcome to the committee the Auditor General, Stephen Boyle. Alongside him are Richard Robinson, who is a senior manager at Audit Scotland, and Erin McGinley, who is a senior auditor at Audit Scotland. We have some questions on the report to put to you, but, before we get to those, I invite the Auditor General to make a short opening statement.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“Adult Disability Payment”

Meeting date: 1 October 2025

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much indeed. I am quite sure that we will get to the funding gap during the course of the next hour or so, but I will begin with some of the first principles. In exhibit 1 in the report, you reflect on the founding principles of the social security system as defined by the Social Security (Scotland) Act 2018, which spoke about social security as being about making an investment in people, the dignity of people, about it being a public service, a method of reducing poverty and so on.

To what extent have the eight substantial and important underpinning principles that are set out in the act been followed by the Government?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Decision on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 1 October 2025

Richard Leonard

Good morning. I welcome everyone to the 26th meeting in 2025 of the Public Audit Committee. The first item for the committee to consider is whether to take agenda items 3 and 4 in private. Are we agreed to take those items in private?

Members indicated agreement.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“Adult Disability Payment”

Meeting date: 1 October 2025

Richard Leonard

Principle 6 of the eight principles in the report is to design the system

“with the people of Scotland on the basis of evidence.”

That takes us back to the first principle, which we have been looking at this morning.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“Adult Disability Payment”

Meeting date: 1 October 2025

Richard Leonard

Good.

I invite Joe FitzPatrick to put some questions to you.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“Adult Disability Payment”

Meeting date: 1 October 2025

Richard Leonard

Yes—that would be very helpful, I think.

I have a final point to raise. You have mentioned the independent review into the adult disability payment a couple of times. I cannot pre-empt what the committee decides to do, but we may well invite the director general communities and representatives of Social Security Scotland to give evidence to us on the report. What is your understanding of what they plan to do about the findings of the independent review?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“Adult Disability Payment”

Meeting date: 1 October 2025

Richard Leonard

You mentioned the DWP increasing its data collection, or improving the quality of its data. To what extent is there an interdependency between Social Security Scotland and the DWP? For example, in the context of income tax, there have been extensive evidence sessions at this committee about the contract on revenue collection with His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs on behalf of the Scottish Government and the data that it gets out of that arrangement. Is there something equivalent going on in this case, or is Social Security Scotland very much standing alone in charge of the devolved benefits?