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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 30 June 2025
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Displaying 376 contributions

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Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee [Draft]

Scottish Parliament (Recall and Removal of Members) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 12 June 2025

Jamie Hepburn

I am an optimist rather than a cynic—as I am sure that everyone would agree from their experience of interacting with me. I genuinely struggle to see how those circumstances would happen. However, you are right, Ms Webber, to caution and suggest that there is potential for a political party to encourage the disbarment and removal of one of its members for wider reasons of perception. You never know—I suppose that it is a possibility.

The wider point is how we can ensure that there is minimal politicisation at the appropriate part of the process. That speaks to the mechanism that would trigger the recall mechanism.

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee [Draft]

Scottish Parliament (Recall and Removal of Members) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 12 June 2025

Jamie Hepburn

I appreciate that. I will avoid commenting on specific cases because of the territory that that would take us into. That point will inform our considerations—we should not be naive and pretend that it will not—but we must consider the proposition without reference to specific cases. I suppose that it is possible. I struggle to see how the process could take account of that, but there might be a means. We will see whether one can be devised.

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee [Draft]

Scottish Parliament (Recall and Removal of Members) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 12 June 2025

Jamie Hepburn

We only posit the question as something that you might like to explore. I have gone into the specifics of it, but that is the fundamental question. We have talked about parity. Why would there be a subdivision requirement in relation to regional MSPs but no such requirement in relation to constituency MSPs?

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee [Draft]

Scottish Parliament (Recall and Removal of Members) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 12 June 2025

Jamie Hepburn

We will need to reflect on what is recommended. It is merely an observation. On the fundamental question, as I set out, parity of esteem for those who are elected here is an important principle, but parity of process—as much as we can achieve it—is important as well.

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee [Draft]

Scottish Parliament (Recall and Removal of Members) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 12 June 2025

Jamie Hepburn

We have no opinion on that at this stage.

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee [Draft]

Scottish Parliament (Recall and Removal of Members) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 12 June 2025

Jamie Hepburn

Those are things that we would need to consider.

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee [Draft]

Scottish Parliament (Recall and Removal of Members) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 12 June 2025

Jamie Hepburn

It does not entirely rest with us, of course, because we do not control the law around the regulatory period for UK elections. That is where it becomes difficult. The expenditure on elections here then interacts with that part, which we do not control; throwing petitions into the mix would mean that we would have to consider things further.

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee [Draft]

Scottish Parliament (Recall and Removal of Members) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 12 June 2025

Jamie Hepburn

We will of course have to consider that. However, the point that I really make to the committee is that, in considering the issue, there will still be limits to what we might be able to do at the other end.

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee [Draft]

Scottish Parliament (Recall and Removal of Members) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 12 June 2025

Jamie Hepburn

Yes.

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee [Draft]

Scottish Parliament (Recall and Removal of Members) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 12 June 2025

Jamie Hepburn

There are a few issues at play. The first thing that I would set out, as a general perspective, is that, where it is possible, people should be in the Parliament. Whether there is a need to be prescriptive and to make it a matter that might lead to someone’s disbarment is a wider question. However, as a general principle, I think that we all recognise and understand that, if people do not have a good reason not to be here, they should be here on a fairly regular basis, accepting that Mr Simpson’s proposition is that, if people have a good reason, they will not fall foul of the requirement. That is a general observation, rather than a comment on whether that requirement should become part of the process by which someone could be disbarred.

It might be helpful to have a list of acceptable reasons for a person being allowed not to be here. The challenge, which could be accounted for by saying that it is a non-exhaustive list, is that things could arise that we consider to be legitimate reasons but which we had not foreseen and prescribed as legitimate reasons. We could deal with that by different means: the list could be updated or, as I said, we could say that the list was non-exhaustive.

I concede that it is inevitable that the requirement could have an impact on specific cohorts. It is not for me to speak to Mr Simpson’s bill, but, to be fair to him, that is why he has suggested that, if someone has a good reason not to be here, they would not be disbarred.

However, there are some fundamental questions, because the requirement is predicated specifically on physical attendance. Putting aside my personal perspective, which is that people should be here when they can be, we have embedded in our system the ability to participate remotely by digital means—I think that that has been a good thing—and we do not draw a distinction in that regard in relation to a person’s ability to participate in proceedings. If we do not draw a distinction in that regard, a reasonable question might be why we are now saying that, in any six-month period, a member must have been here in person. That question needs to be considered. Again, the Government does not have a perspective on that, so I am merely suggesting that these are questions that need to be considered.

The other fundamental thing that needs to be considered is who the gatekeeper is who will determine whether a reason is legitimate. In effect, for proxy votes, that is the Presiding Officer, but who it should be in this instance is another question.