Chamber and committees

Yesterday’s letter to the committee set out that the estimated annual cost of the bill would be around £14 million to £19 million in 2025-26 terms. The costs would increase to between £17 million and £23 million in year 5, and the figures are likely to rise annually. As the minister who is responsible for the legislation, I want to ensure that it is affordable and would make a real impact. At this stage, the Scottish Government does not feel that the bill as drafted is worth the costs that have been outlined in the financial memorandum.

I will touch briefly on education, under part 4. As you know, we do not take a prescriptive approach to the curriculum in Scotland. It is very much up to individual schools and local authorities to decide what approaches they use and which external partnerships they build to help them to deliver relevant and engaging learning. The curriculum already includes learning and teaching about domestic abuse, and it places a requirement on Scottish ministers and education authorities that would also create a precedent.

Curriculum for excellence contains learning experiences and outcomes that are designed to ensure that children and young people learn about abuse and power dynamics in relationships. Education Scotland’s website contains a section with domestic abuse information for educators that includes links to various teaching resources. We would be setting a precedent if we were to dictate that there should be specific domestic abuse education in schools.

Good morning, and thank you, convener. First, I acknowledge Pam Gosal’s aim of tackling the horrendous crime of domestic abuse, which is an aim that we all share.

Although violent crime has reduced significantly over the past 20 years, I am, of course, concerned about the increase in incidents of domestic abuse, though I acknowledge that that will reflect increased confidence in reporting and is due to new offences being brought in through the Domestic Abuse (Scotland) Act 2018. I also welcome the fact that the number of convictions has increased, with recent statistics demonstrating that Police Scotland has used those offence powers, further increasing public confidence in reporting domestic abuse.

Tackling domestic abuse remains a focus of the Government, and we will always consider actions that can enable just that. However, as we have set out in correspondence, and as the committee has heard in evidence-taking sessions, we are not sure that the bill will achieve its aims.

On the specific proposals in the bill, we still do not have a clear understanding of how they will interact with existing processes and procedures. That is particularly a concern in relation to part 1.

The committee is aware that those with domestic abuse convictions can already be managed under the multi-agency public protection arrangements—MAPPA—and the disclosure scheme for domestic abuse Scotland, which allows individuals to obtain information and make an informed decision about their situation when they may be at risk in a relationship. Without a clearer understanding of how the bill would interact with those existing programmes, the risk of duplication, competing demands on resources, associated inefficiencies and confusion is high.

Although the concept of a domestic abuse register seems to have been withdrawn, the bill would introduce notification requirements, with the suggestion that being on a list of some description would be a disincentive to offending. As stakeholders have noted—we agree with them—that assertion remains unevidenced, and consequently it remains unclear what added value, if any, the proposal would deliver.

In relation to part 2, the Scottish Government is already investing in the valuable rehabilitation work that is done through the Caledonian system, which uses an integrated whole-family approach to address the domestic abuse of women by men in Scotland. It is important to recognise that the Caledonian men’s programme is a court-ordered programme and that legislation is not required to expand it.

In relation to part 3, although the Scottish Government recognises that more could be done on data collecting and reporting, we consider that that can be achieved without placing statutory duties on Police Scotland, the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service, and charities to request and record data from victims. I have noted charities’ concerns about how onerous that would be for them.

Part 4 of the bill would contradict the discretionary, non-statutory approach to the curriculum that is currently in place in Scotland. Moreover, we have significant concerns about how the establishment of duties on education authorities in relation to the promotion, facilitation and support of domestic abuse education would operate in practice. That remains unclear.

As we have consistently outlined, the Scottish Government remains committed to tackling domestic abuse to ensure that those who perpetrate violence and abuse, the majority of whom are men, change their actions and behaviour, and we are taking a range of actions in that area. We recognise that more can be done, but we do not see the bill’s provisions as being the most effective focus, for the reasons that I have outlined. The bill would involve significant administrative impact and cost, and many of the proposals in the bill are not clear or defined. It is not clear what the bill would provide that would be additional to what we already have.

That leads me to the conclusion that the bill does not strike the right balance in the outcomes that it aims to achieve. Because of that, paired with the costs to public bodies and charities to which it would give rise, the Scottish Government cannot support the bill as it is currently drafted.

I am happy to take questions.

At this stage, I do not believe that the provisions will make victims feel safer. Members will be aware that a range of things are happening in the justice system, including legislative reforms in the Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Act 2025 and the Regulation of Legal Services (Scotland) Act 2025, and we are updating the victim notification scheme. A lot of work is going on throughout the justice system.

My officials might want to add something more specific to answer your question.

Yes, I am.

My understanding is that, even though the equally safe at school programme is rolled out through the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and local authorities, it is not prescriptive for local authorities to take it up.

Our position on the proposal is that if the register brings people under MAPPA, that might be at odds with Scotland’s aspiration that MAPPA be led by risk instead of offence.

On it coming into force two months after royal assent?

I do not believe that it is realistic. As I said, once legislation has received royal assent, we have to go through a budgetary process to make sure that we can afford it, so a two-month timescale is very ambitious for a bill like this.

I will bring in my officials to say whether charities have raised those specific concerns with them. They have not done so with me. I have been watching the evidence sessions, and we recognise that the issue has been raised as a concern and that there has to be improvement in data collection. In my response to Ms Dowey, I mentioned the work that is being done with the domestic abuse justice partners group, for example, on a data mapping exercise that will include identifying the gaps and possible opportunities for data improvement.

I do not know whether Graham Robertson or Jeff Gibbons is able to provide any insights on conversations that have taken place with charities about that.

I apologise, as I have already talked about education in response to Mr Hepburn’s questions.

As I said, the curriculum already includes learning about domestic abuse. Imposing a requirement specifically for domestic abuse education would set a precedent. Curriculum for excellence contains learning experiences and outcomes that are designed to ensure that children and young people learn about abuse and the power dynamics in such relationships.

In addition, the Education Scotland website contains a section on domestic abuse, and “Preventing and Responding to Gender Based Violence: A Whole School Framework” contains resources on domestic abuse to assist all school staff to support children and young people who experience domestic abuse.

Work is on-going in that area, but, as I have said, we are always keen to consider what more we can do, and I would be happy to work with any members who have ideas about how that work can be improved.