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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 9 October 2025
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Displaying 1302 contributions

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Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 10 September 2025

Natalie Don-Innes

I have given my answer to the convener. I apologise if that was how that came across.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 10 September 2025

Natalie Don-Innes

I made clear last night that the matter is subject to on-going consideration and that the Government will consider its position by 26 September. I have made clear that the work that the member in charge has undertaken over recent months and has shared with me, as well as my own engagement and the work that my officials have been undertaking, will be used to inform that.

I should now make clear that this is not a Government-supported bill. There is no formal requirement on the Government to provide support. However, I have continued to engage with Ms Smith and to provide requested information, and I have continued to engage with key bodies. This will go through the normal Cabinet process. I am not able to give any further information on dates, but I assure the committee that the decision will be made and announced prior to 26 September.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 10 September 2025

Natalie Don-Innes

I cannot discuss those processes. As I said, if you would like some further information, I am happy to bring in Kirstie McKerron.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 10 September 2025

Natalie Don-Innes

If I could seek further clarity from—

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 10 September 2025

Natalie Don-Innes

That is not what I am saying—

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 10 September 2025

Natalie Don-Innes

I am sorry, Ms Duncan-Glancy, but it is not the Government’s responsibility to figure out the costs of the bill. This is a member’s bill, and the responsibility lies with the member to bring the final costs of the bill, and the implications of that, to Parliament or the Government, to help to inform our decision on a financial resolution. Liz Smith has worked to address some of those costs, but here has been no engagement by Ms Smith with the trade unions, for example, to hear their concerns about the workforce implications and the costs that could be attached to them. There are still a number of unknowns.

As I say, a legitimate process is in place to help to ensure that Parliament does not walk into a scenario of unknown costs. We have the costs that are attached to the bill at the moment, but our estimation is that those will grow rapidly, based on a number of the issues that remain outstanding.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 10 September 2025

Natalie Don-Innes

I will bring in Saskia Kearns to speak to some of the further work that has been done.

We have engaged with stakeholders, and we know that supporting children with additional support needs in relation to residential outdoor education is a highly complex issue. There are a number of children and young people out there with varying degrees of support needs. Some outdoor residential education centres are already well equipped to support those children, but that is not the case across the board. Initial analysis, and my engagement with the process, has shown us that some centres are not fully equipped to support children with a range of additional support needs. Again, this is variable, but we know that the costs attached to supporting children with additional support needs to attend residential trips can be up to £1,000 per child. More work needs done on that.

I know that Ms Smith introduced proposals and attached a £1.5 million figure to the cost of supporting children with additional support needs; however, I believe that that estimate was based solely on children in special schools and did not include those in mainstream schools. We know that there are a number of children in mainstream schools with additional support needs, so I believe that the cost would be higher than that.

There is also an issue about staff ratios to support children with additional support needs, because we know that, depending on a child’s or a young person’s needs, there might need to be more than one member of staff. Work has been done on that issue, but I do not think that the timeframe quite fits if we are to fully understand the implications around it.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 10 September 2025

Natalie Don-Innes

This is a member’s bill. I have been clear about what the Government has done, and we have made efforts.

I will bring in Saskia in case I have missed anything.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 10 September 2025

Natalie Don-Innes

Given the current financial context, I do not believe that I can sit here and tell you a figure that is affordable. Introducing any new duties to fund in the current financial context would force difficult choices about what to defund to accommodate new expenditure. That difficulty is compounded by the fact that, as I have already said, the total potential costs of the provisions are not clear, due to outstanding gaps in the available data. Even if I were to quote a figure, that figure would rise, because unknown costs would be attached to it. It is therefore very difficult to produce any figure that is affordable.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 10 September 2025

Natalie Don-Innes

If the pilot approach was the approach that was decided on, it would ensure that control. I agree that it would cover only a certain number of children and young people, but it would allow the Government to gather the necessary data so that, if a national roll-out followed, no children and young people were missing out.

I would put that point back to Liz Smith. I believe that the bill as drafted does not fit in with that policy, because there absolutely would be children and young people who would miss out on those opportunities under the bill as drafted.