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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Session 6: 13 May 2021 to 8 April 2026
  7. Current session: 14 May 2026 to 8 November 2026
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Displaying 31 contributions

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Public Service Reform Committee [Draft]

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2027-28

Meeting date: 24 September 2026

Michelle Campbell

I am not expecting a single answer or that we will solve the problem in five seconds, so I appreciate your responses.

Public Service Reform Committee [Draft]

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2027-28

Meeting date: 24 September 2026

Michelle Campbell

Kirsty Morrison, I wrote down the words “allied health professionals”, because your commentary touched on some of the things that witnesses have said about in-built barriers and tensions in systems—please correct me if I have misquoted or misunderstood your point.

Pain management in the NHS is a good example of where allied health professionals have been able to take the ball and run with it, and shows that flexibility can exist in public services if we truly want it to happen. That is likewise the case in nurse-led services, but I obviously have a slight bias on that one.

I am interested in understanding those in-built frustrations, because I feel that they are a bit of an elephant in the room. I want to prod you a bit on that, because I want to get the best picture of what you want change to look like in developing the cultural shift and getting the leadership that is required strategically and in relation to policy development. It is fair to say that the third sector does flexible change better than public services do, and it might come down to statutory routes—they might be the restriction when it comes to allowing change. I would like to hear all the witnesses’ views on that, as succinctly as possible, starting with Kirsty Morrison.

Public Service Reform Committee [Draft]

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2027-28

Meeting date: 24 September 2026

Michelle Campbell

Thank you.

11:15

Public Service Reform Committee [Draft]

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2027-28

Meeting date: 24 September 2026

Michelle Campbell

I could ask a million more questions, but there is one other area that I want to ask a specific question about.

Public Service Reform Committee [Draft]

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2027-28

Meeting date: 24 September 2026

Michelle Campbell

Not a problem. I appreciate that time is tight.

Public Service Reform Committee [Draft]

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2027-28

Meeting date: 24 September 2026

Michelle Campbell

Yes. What do you feel is a positive opportunity? I appreciate that it is important that we talk about the frustrations but, given where the conversation is at and how the politics of public service reform are landing, where is the real opportunity for change to happen?

Public Service Reform Committee [Draft]

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2027-28

Meeting date: 24 September 2026

Michelle Campbell

I have a question for Mark McAteer on culture and change, because I feel as though that is the toughest bit to chew through when it comes to any type of reform. What is the need in relation to culture? From your experience of what you have been through, what have been the wins? What are the challenges going forward?

Public Service Reform Committee [Draft]

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2027-28

Meeting date: 24 September 2026

Michelle Campbell

Thank you for your insights in that respect.

I will move on to a slightly different topic, as I am interested to get views from both of you on data. Alex Kerr touched on some aspects of that, but I want to ask about the impact of artificial intelligence, and scale and intelligent automation. Do you see that as having a role within local authorities and the Fire and Rescue Service? What are the opportunities, and hesitations, at this time?

Public Service Reform Committee [Draft]

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2027-28

Meeting date: 24 September 2026

Michelle Campbell

Mark, do you have anything to add?

Public Service Reform Committee [Draft]

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2027-28

Meeting date: 24 September 2026

Michelle Campbell

I draw members’ attention to my entry in the register of members’ interests: I am an NHS nurse and a councillor in Renfrewshire.

I have a small supplementary question and I hope the answers will be short. When we use the terms “public service” and “public sector”, what do we understand the definitions of those to be? How do we bring the public and service users along with us and how do we ensure a culture shift? Public services might refer people to third sector organisations and I have worked with third sector organisations that can do things much better and have the time to focus on them. How do we bring the public along so that they do not feel as if they are—to use a term that I have heard—being fobbed off? I dislike that terminology because I think there is value in the third sector, but I would like to understand how we can make that shift?