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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 21 September 2025
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Displaying 1560 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

Katy Clark

Cabinet secretary, you said that the evidence was clear on the impact of removing the not proven verdict on the number of convictions, but the evidence that we have heard is far more mixed. We were not aware of the metadata evidence that you mentioned to Pauline McNeill, but we were aware of the other Scottish mock jury research to which we have been directed.

The views that we have heard from the various witnesses who have come to speak to us are far more complicated, as, I am sure, you are aware. Witnesses have also told us that it is not possible to provide a breakdown of whether jury decisions were unanimous or majority or to provide exact numbers and a breakdown of outcomes from juries. Would it not be sensible to get that data before we make significant changes to jury majorities in the Scottish system? There is a dispute over whether we can do that legally in Scotland, and legislation has been passed down south to enable that kind of research to take place. Would it not be sensible to have a better understanding of what happens now before we make really significant changes to the system?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

Katy Clark

I have spoken to the cabinet secretary previously about independent legal representation beyond what is proposed in the bill. Given that she has been to Norway and various other jurisdictions that have more extensive rights of advice and representation for victims, has she any reflections on that?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

Katy Clark

But you will go there.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

Katy Clark

I do not think that there is any suggestion that the outcomes of individual cases would be publicised; we are talking about research across the board so that we can begin to understand trends and what is actually happening. I know that we are short of time, but it is surprising that we are not trying to get a firmer evidence base. The cabinet secretary says that the evidence is clear, but that is not what other witnesses have said to us, as I am sure that she has seen.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

Katy Clark

You have to accept that politicians will presume that there might be a cost-cutting agenda here, because that was the experience in the past. Pauline McNeill has outlined one example of that, and there are others.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

Katy Clark

If the pilot led to lower conviction rates, I would see that as a failure. I wonder whether you agree with me on that.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

Katy Clark

Are you saying that the committee’s views would be taken into account? I am not saying that you would necessarily agree with those views, but would you consider them?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

Katy Clark

From what we have been told, there seem to be different views as to whether that is correct in Scotland, but irrespective of that, the law in England was changed to make it absolutely clear that it would be possible to carry out such research. Instead of proposing controversial changes that go way beyond the manifesto commitments of the various political parties to abolish the not proven verdict, why are we not trying to enable the collection of data and analysis so that we can get our evidence base and, as a result, make evidence-based policy? That legal change could, I presume, be incorporated into the bill.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

Katy Clark

The information that we asked for is quite basic, though. We are asking only for numbers, but I have heard what the cabinet secretary has said.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

Katy Clark

I understand that, and that there are different criteria for taking cases forward in England and Wales. In Scotland, the decision is based on whether there is a sufficiency of evidence. The view is that conviction rates for rape in Scotland are too low, compared with other crimes; notwithstanding what the Scottish Solicitors Bar Association said yesterday in relation to, for example, murder cases, rape conviction levels are an outlier compared with other offences.

You have said very clearly that you are abolishing the not proven verdict not just to increase conviction levels, and in changing jury size, you are trying to fix the system so that it does not have any impact on conviction levels. Surely, though, we should be looking for a system in which there is a higher conviction rate in rape cases, given that there is sufficient evidence to convict. Those cases have been marked in the same way as any other case would be marked, on the basis that the Crown believes that there is sufficient evidence to convict.