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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 15 February 2026
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Displaying 3353 contributions

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Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Section 22 Report: “The 2024/25 audit of Historic Environment Scotland”

Meeting date: 22 January 2026

Stephen Kerr

The Auditor General has highlighted the six-month period when Historic Environment Scotland did not have an accountable officer. This question is not directed solely at you, Lisa. In your professional judgment, at what point did the lack of an accountable officer go from being understandable to being unacceptable?

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Section 22 Report: “The 2024/25 audit of Historic Environment Scotland”

Meeting date: 22 January 2026

Stephen Kerr

I do not want to put words in your mouth, and you would not let me anyway, because you are very accomplished, but HES does not appear to satisfy the requirement of the Scottish public finance manual in having an accountable officer as things stand, because there is no contingency for hybrids.

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Section 22 Report: “The 2024/25 audit of Historic Environment Scotland”

Meeting date: 22 January 2026

Stephen Kerr

Yes, we might come to those, but I know that time is restricted. Lisa, you have been referred to a few times—do you want to come in?

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Section 22 Report: “The 2024/25 audit of Historic Environment Scotland”

Meeting date: 22 January 2026

Stephen Kerr

The committee’s role, obviously, is to scrutinise the Scottish Government, and in the case of this example, a non-departmental public body and the role of the cabinet secretary who is directly responsible for the body. I think that your section 22 report clearly states that the Scottish Government did not act in a timely way, or even in an urgent way, to deal with these issues.

In the report, there is talk about ratings going from green to amber to red. Is the situation still the same if HES does not have an accountable officer, by the definition of the Scottish public finance manual? Are we still at red?

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Section 22 Report: “The 2024/25 audit of Historic Environment Scotland”

Meeting date: 22 January 2026

Stephen Kerr

Are we still at red?

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Section 22 Report: “The 2024/25 audit of Historic Environment Scotland”

Meeting date: 22 January 2026

Stephen Kerr

At the very least, though, the cabinet secretary should have acted to ensure that a substitute accountable officer was in place, but we still do not have that.

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Section 22 Report: “The 2024/25 audit of Historic Environment Scotland”

Meeting date: 22 January 2026

Stephen Kerr

Okay. I have one final question, which is a continuation of the discussion about the current state of the organisation. I have perhaps dwelt for too long—I do not know—on the accountable officer, but that seems like one of the crucial issues coming out of the section 22 report. There is also the issue of internal financial controls in relation to things such as the 400 purchasing cards, which seems an extraordinary number in an organisation with, if I remember correctly, 1,200 employees. What has changed in the past month in relation to the issues that you highlighted that relate directly to internal controls?

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Section 22 Report: “The 2024/25 audit of Historic Environment Scotland”

Meeting date: 22 January 2026

Stephen Kerr

I appreciate that we are short of time and I have taken up a lot of time. I am grateful to my fellow committee members for allowing me that indulgence, but I should probably stop there. Thank you.

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Section 22 Report: “The 2024/25 audit of Historic Environment Scotland”

Meeting date: 22 January 2026

Stephen Kerr

Could it be? Would that be possible? Would you be able to do that?

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Section 22 Report: “The 2024/25 audit of Historic Environment Scotland”

Meeting date: 22 January 2026

Stephen Kerr

I very much appreciate that. One whistleblower told me—this individual is known to me and is genuine—that they were genuinely concerned that, one day, someone at work or a visitor would be injured or worse. Obviously, we do not want that to happen. That is why I am raising the issue at the end of this session, as well as the failures that result from the “culture of non-compliance”, which runs pretty deep in the organisation and has done for a while.