Education and Training (Scotland) Bill: Timetable
The next motion is S1M-1065, on the timetable for the Education and Training (Scotland) Bill.
If members have any concerns or questions about the motion, I am happy to try to address them.
I move,
That the Parliament agrees that for Stage 3 of the Education and Training (Scotland) Bill, debate on each part of the proceedings, if not previously brought to a conclusion, shall be brought to a conclusion at the following times –
Amendments – no later than 1 hour 30 minutes after Stage 3 begins
Motion to pass the Bill – no later than 2 hours after Stage 3 begins.
I do not intend to support motion S1M-1065. I have given Mr McCabe notice of that and I have raised the matter at the Parliamentary Bureau.
A very bad precedent is being set by automatically guillotining every stage 3 debate. No doubt, there are circumstances in which the chamber would want to curtail the stage 3 debate of a bill, and that might be opposed by any party. However, currently we do not hold any stage 3 debate without a guillotine. Sometimes that does not matter—last week, for example, we had too much time and we are likely to find ourselves in a similar situation today. However, if we get into the mindset that we cannot have a stage 3 debate without curtailing discussion, at some stage we will deeply regret it. Indeed, we almost reached that point some weeks ago in the stage 3 debate on the Standards in Scotland's Schools etc Bill, and that should have taught us a lesson. There is no need for a guillotine today. The debate will not take a long time and there is no indication from any party or member that they will filibuster. Indeed, with the powers available to the Presiding Officer, that would not be possible.
It is clearly the intention of the Executive to have a guillotine on every occasion, but if we take that approach, at some stage, democracy will be damaged. I want to ensure that every time we are presented with a guillotine, we consider whether it is required. If we do not need such a guillotine, the motion to curtail the debate should not be brought to the chamber. I oppose the motion and I ask others to oppose it, too.
I support Mr Russell's comments. The last time we opposed a guillotine motion, Mr McCabe said that the purpose of the motion was for the guidance of the Presiding Officer. If one examines the terms of the motion, it is clear that it is not about guidance, but is a precise instruction that debate will terminate at a fixed time. We should not go down that road.
The Conservatives concur with the comments made by Mr Russell. One of these days—although not this morning—the Executive's approach will cause difficulties. We must establish the principle that guillotine motions are unacceptable.
We discussed the issue in some detail last week. There is no great purpose to be served in repeating ourselves. However, I must respond to a couple of points made by Mike Russell.
Timetabling motions—particularly the one on today's debate—are not about guillotining or restricting debate, but are the exact opposite. Having a timetabling motion with particular knives that come down at specific times ensures that specific sections of the bill are protected for debate. Without those specific time insertions, it would be perfectly possible for members in the chamber to filibuster, to avoid debate on a particular section of a bill. As I said, a timetabling motion protects debate in the chamber. That very principle underpinned the consultative steering group's approach to the issue. [Interruption.] Presiding Officer, we are talking about the protection of debate in the chamber, and a rabble on the SNP benches continues to carry on when members are discussing the matter. You might wish to intervene on that. However, as I said, the motion is about protecting debate in the chamber.
This morning's situation is particularly ironic. This motion is simply a timetabling motion that allows the chamber to know when the debate will finish. No specific sections are mentioned, and the whole time is open for debate on the amendments, with 30 minutes at the end to wrap up the bill. There is no reason whatever for complaint other than people's wish to provide the chamber with no notice or indication of the structure to today's business. There is a very good reason indeed for the motion.
One specific point has been raised. During the stage 3 debate on the Standards in Scotland's Schools etc Bill, the timetabling motion was agreed with the involvement of all the parties. On that occasion, the time allotted to each section was clearly too tight, and that has been fully recognised. If, when a timetabling motion is moved, there has been consultation with the parties, as is always the case, and we have tried to ensure that there is sufficient time for each section, I see no case whatever for moving away from the concept of a timetabling motion. It should always be agreed in a spirit of consensus. It is the Executive's intention to discuss the time available, and we will continue to try to do so. We tried on this occasion, and will do so on every other occasion in future.
I must put the question to the chamber. The question is, that motion S1M-1065, in the name of Mr Tom McCabe, be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Deacon, Susan (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Galbraith, Mr Sam (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Kerr, Mr Andy (East Kilbride) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacLean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, Mr John (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Raffan, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North-East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Against
Adam, Brian (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Davidson, Mr David (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Elder, Dorothy-Grace (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Johnston, Nick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North-East Scotland) (Con)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGugan, Irene (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Mr Gil (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North-East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wallace, Ben (North-East Scotland) (Con)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 54, Against 41, Abstentions 0.
Motion agreed to.
That the Parliament agrees that for Stage 3 of the Education and Training (Scotland) Bill, debate on each part of the proceedings, if not previously brought to a conclusion, shall be brought to a conclusion at the following times –
Amendments – no later than 1 hour 30 minutes after Stage 3 begins
Motion to pass the Bill – no later than 2 hours after Stage 3 begins.