Plenary, 27 Jun 2002

Meeting date: Thursday, June 27, 2002

Official Report 734KB pdf

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First Minister's Question Time

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Prime Minister (Meetings)

Before I ask my question, I associate the Scottish National Party with the remarks that Cathy Jamieson made about the coach crash in France today and I express the SNP's sympathies to everybody involved.

To ask the First Minister when he next plans to meet the Prime Minister and what issues he intends to raise. (S1F-2005)

I have no immediate plans to meet the Prime Minister.

I thank the First Minister for his reply.

Five years ago the former First Minister Henry McLeish said:

"We, in the ministerial team, give youth crime the highest priority and I am sure that in the next two or three months, we shall develop policies that go to the heart of the issue".

Since then we have had a review, a strategy session, an advisory group, another strategy, an assessment of the strategy and now an ad-hoc working group that has produced a pilot scheme, a feasibility project and—no process in the Executive would be complete without it—another review. After five years of promises by new Labour, when will the First Minister take action on youth crime?

The Executive has been acting on youth crime since 1999. In January or February this year we produced a comprehensive across-the-board strategy for youth crime that will tackle a range of issues including the children's hearing system and activities and programmes for young offenders and young people, which are already a success in communities in different parts of Scotland. There is a specific problem, which lies with 800 or so persistent serious young offenders—perhaps another 1,500 or so could fall into that category. It is very important that we listen to those who make representations to us and that we act on those representations.

I have to say that Mr Swinney has demeaned himself today with his description of the 10-point action plan. That plan includes the development of youth courts, the development of fast-track specialist children's hearings, a national system of warning for young people, action to ensure greater parental responsibility and national standards on relationships between local authorities, children's hearings and the police. It also includes other measures, such as improvements in secure accommodation, which John Swinney has been calling for. All those matters will be addressed in one action plan, the implementation of which will begin immediately and very little of which requires new legislation. Those actions will make a difference. They were warmly welcomed by the police officers at Torphichen Street police station in Edinburgh, whom I met this morning and who told me six months ago that such action is exactly what they wanted Jim Wallace and I to take. We have done what they wanted. They welcomed that—the member should do so, too.

There we have it—an admission of failure. The Executive has been in office for three years and it has failed to deliver any of the initiatives that the police forces in our country have demanded.

Let us consider secure accommodation. The seventh recommendation of the 10 recommendations that the First Minister launched today says that there is

"no systematic evidence to support a definitive conclusion"

on whether the number of secure accommodation places should be increased.

Read the rest.

That is what is in the document.

On 1 May, the convener of the Association of Directors of Social Work said to one of the Parliament's committees:

"there is a shortage of secure accommodation places".—[Official Report, Justice 1 Committee and Justice 2 Committee (Joint Meeting), 1 May 2002; c 171.]

In a parliamentary answer, Cathy Jamieson, who is nodding sagely next to the First Minister, said that demand for such places had doubled. If the minister who is in charge of youth crime produces evidence to show that demand for secure accommodation is rising, why does not the First Minister get on with it, instead of having more reviews of the matter?

Unlike the Scottish National Party, we want to be consistent, thorough and absolutely right on the issue before we act. We are hearing from a party that said five weeks ago that the ad hoc ministerial group on youth crime would deliver no action. Today we have delivered a 10-point action plan. Mr Swinney's deputy Roseanna Cunningham said that we already had juvenile courts in Scotland; we do not. He claimed—I think that it was three weeks ago—that we should double secure accommodation in Scotland, without outlining how we might pay for that.

We need to know exactly what is required in relation to secure accommodation. The point is serious and SNP members should perhaps listen to it, because they might formulate better policies as a result. [Interruption.]

Order. Let us hear the First Minister.

There are serious secure accommodation issues, which are not all about the total number of available places. Among those issues are the number of places that require teenage boys and girls to share the same hallways or corridors, the locations of the secure places and the inability of the programmes that go on inside our secure accommodation to stop young people reoffending when they come out.

When an advisory group that has been set up by ministers tells us that it cannot prove the need for additional secure accommodation places, we must go out and find such evidence. We believe that such evidence exists. We will find it and we will make the right decisions but, in the meantime, we will reconfigure, reorganise and improve the existing provision.

Kay Ullrich seems to believe that it is right and proper that the area that she represents in the Parliament to have a secure accommodation unit in which boys and girls share the same corridors. I want that situation to be sorted out by the provision of girls-only secure accommodation. I want serious offenders to be kept separate from those who are in such establishments because they are at risk from their families. I want to ensure that the secure accommodation places are in the right locations. That is responsible government; it is not sloganising. Mr Swinney can stick to sloganising, but we will act.

None of what the First Minister said is new. He has done nothing to address the core issues that concern communities around Scotland. However, in recent weeks he has taken one piece of decisive action in relation to the justice element of the Scottish Executive's programme—he has cut £13 million from the Executive's justice budget. If fighting crime is at the top of the First Minister's list of priorities, why is he cutting the justice budget, which is designed to protect the public?

Five weeks ago, Mr Swinney criticised us for a situation in which the Minister for Education and Young People continued to be the minister responsible for youth justice. Today he is managing to relate youth justice to the justice department budget, but youth justice has an entirely different budget. If the member paid a bit more attention in the Parliament, he might at least know which departments have which responsibilities.

Anybody who cares about the issue, anybody who wants communities in Scotland to be safer and anybody who wants young people to be locked up when they need to be locked up, but who wants them also to have the right programmes to turn round their offending behaviour and make them better adults, will welcome yesterday's statement from the Minister for Finance and Public Services that £15 million will be available to tackle youth crime and associated issues before the end of this financial year. That money will make a significant difference if we can spend it on the right things. We will make the right decisions first, rather than spending the money willy-nilly as Mr Swinney clearly wants us to.

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Cabinet (Meetings)

To ask the First Minister what issues will be discussed at the next meeting of the Scottish Executive's Cabinet. (S1F-2010)

Perhaps not surprisingly, the Cabinet will discuss issues that are of importance to the people of Scotland.

I hope that one of those important issues will be the recommendations of the ministerial group on youth crime, which the Executive published today and which I consider, in the now immortal words of Dr Richard Simpson, to be "an absolute disaster".

I want to explore some issues with the First Minister. He promised us some tough action, but what does he actually do? He transfers persistent 16 and 17-year-old offenders from the adult courts to his new youth courts and, instead of sending persistent offenders of 13, 14 and 15 to the new youth courts, he keeps them in the children's hearing system. In the meantime, in some parts of the country, persistent 16 and 17-year-old offenders will not stay in the adult courts and they will not go to the youth courts: they will go instead to the children's panels. That is a complete and utter mishmash. Is not it the case that the First Minister has run up the white flag on youth crime and that he has lost out to all the doves in his Cabinet?

Dear, oh dear, oh dear. The Conservatives are disappointed that we are taking action to tackle youth crime. They would rather complain from the sidelines than see action being taken by the Government. We intend to take that action.

I can only assume that Mr McLetchie has not read the submission that was put in the parliamentary library this morning. First, the action plan on youth crime builds on all the existing policies and programmes that we have put in place. Secondly, it includes: the feasibility project on youth courts; the specialist children's hearings to fast-track persistent offenders under the age of 16; a review of the scope of restriction of liberty orders—[Interruption.]

Some people in here would clearly prefer Governments to make their decisions on the hoof, without consulting the police, social work departments or even those who run our courts— [Interruption.]

Order.

We in Scotland live in a democracy and we will not tell sheriffs in our courts what they should do. We will first discuss with them exactly how we plan to implement our proposals. That is what democracy is all about. It might not work in the Scottish National Party, but it works in Scotland.

I will get back to my list from the action plan. It also includes: a Scotland-wide system of cautions and warnings; a safer Scotland police campaign with higher police visibility; the introduction of best practice and firm standards for community projects and for the operations between local authorities' hearings and the justice system; and more parental responsibility. All those measures taken together will tackle youth crime in Scotland and will make a difference. For once in his life, Mr McLetchie should welcome them.

I would welcome the youth courts if they were going to do something effective. However, we now have the rather bizarre situation in which the only people who will not be sent to youth courts are youths, while the people who will be sent to youth courts are people who are presently dealt with in the adult system. Against that background, it is no wonder that the First Minister's so-called action plan has no credibility with the public. They all have 10-point action plans in the Scottish Executive; can we never have an eight-point action plan, or a six-point action plan, or even a one-point action plan that was actually implemented? That would be a refreshing change.

The Executive has no credibility because, for instance, only last week we learned that crime figures in Lothian and Borders are apparently being massaged to the extent that some 50 per cent of crimes are being ignored. Many of those crimes are committed by young offenders.

In his action plan, the First Minister says that youth crime is falling, but how can the public trust the First Minister on that when the police admit—as a result of their internal investigations—that crimes are not being recorded? Regardless of whether it is waiting lists for hospital treatment or crime figures, it seems that the Executive does not solve problems; rather, it simply reclassifies them. Perhaps the Scottish Executive should rename itself the Enron executive—it has more dodgy accountants than Arthur Andersen.

I am tempted to give up trying to reply to some of those points. However, there are important points to be made and Parliament is the place to make them. The recorded figures for youth crime in general appear to show that youth crime is on the decline, but I believe that there is a problem with persistent serious young offenders and with youth disorder, which is not always recorded as crime. We must deal with those problems.

Persistent youth offenders and youth disorder are matters that have been raised with me. Mr McLetchie and Mr Swinney might not be listening, but we are. When police officers, MSPs in the partnership parties, communities such as Ardler in Dundee and communities in any other part of Scotland raise such issues, they demand and deserve action from the Executive. That is what they will get. The rate of persistent and serious youth offending has increased by 50 per cent in 10 years. That demands action from the Executive and action is what will happen.

It is important that we have range of options. The adult courts—at the moment there are already dozens of under-16s in the adult courts—will continue to deal with the most serious young offenders. Youth courts will deal with offenders under and over 16 as appropriate. Specialist children's hearings can fast-track children who require quick action, and other forms of cautions, warnings and programmes in the communities will get our kids off the streets and into sport and other activities that will give them a chance in life. It is not just about taking action to tackle youth crime; it is about preventing youth crime in the first place. That is the comprehensive programme that we will implement.

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Youth Crime

I find myself in fine company today.

To ask the First Minister what progress is being made by the ministerial group on youth crime, with particular regard to persistent young offenders and the effectiveness of the children's hearings system. (S1F-2013)

I will not repeat the various points that I have already made. I believe that significant progress is about to be made—[Interruption.] Perhaps we need MSP courts, given some of the behaviour in here.

Significant progress is about to be made on persistent and serious youth offending and youth disorder generally. That will improve and enhance the work that is already under way to tackle youth crime. That progress is due in no small part to the efforts of Johann Lamont and other MSPs who have in recent months raised those issues on behalf of their constituents; Johann Lamont and those MSPs deserve credit for the action that we are now taking.

Will the First Minister note—I do not say this lightly—that I regard the action plan as what is known as "getting a result"? The action plan acknowledges the central concern of my constituents that youth disorder is a grave problem that deserves the attention of the Government and the judicial system. It also shows a willingness to look beyond what is claimed for the system to the reality of that system.

Will the First Minister comment on the view that I share with many members that, by taking persistent offenders seriously we can challenge what might be described broadly as a culture of lower-level offending among some young people? That offending is often unrecorded, but its cumulative effect leads to fear, anxiety and real restrictions—[Interruption.]

Please carry on.

The cumulative effect of that offending leads to fear, anxiety and real restrictions on the way in which people are able to lead their lives.

I agree with Johann Lamont. Youth disorder on our streets—a difficulty that has been with us for generations at different levels at different times—is an issue for Government. It is not an issue that we should leave communities to deal with themselves or for the police or other authorities to tackle.

We need to have in place systems of cautions and warnings that the police can use, and programmes that can tackle those who are in danger of becoming regular offenders to get them out of that pattern of offending for the rest of their lives. However, we also need the programmes, policies and leadership to say to parents that the problem is partly their responsibility and that they must take action to ensure that, in their community, people who live near them are given a decent chance to live a decent quality life.

We also say to young people, "Choose a better lifestyle; not just a healthier lifestyle or a more active lifestyle. Choose a lifestyle that gives you an opportunity in your life." The real challenge for modern Scotland is not to lock up persistent serious young offenders, but to ensure that young people have real opportunities that give them a decent start in life so that they can avoid offending in the first place.

As we started late, I will take question 4.

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Highland and Islands Fire Brigade

To ask the First Minister what plans the Scottish Executive has to address the need for capital investment in Highland and Islands fire brigade. (S1F-2007)

From 2000 to 2003, capital investment in our fire services will increase by 56 per cent from £15.1 million to £23.6 million. Since 2000-2001, Highland and Islands fire brigade has received £8 million in capital consent, of which 40 per cent has been to assist its upgrade programme.

The First Minister will appreciate that there is considerable concern in the Highlands and Islands that the proposed public-private partnerships are an expensive option for the fire brigade. Recognising that the borrowing powers of the Scottish Executive and of the local authority restrict the options that are available to fund much-needed public works, will the First Minister undertake to make representations to Westminster to secure for Scotland extra powers to borrow money for publicly funded schemes? To do so would allow local authorities to make real choices when they are assessing the right option to deliver best value.

Never have more resources been made available to the public sector in Scotland than are available today. There has never been as big an increase year on year in capital investment programmes, public-private partnerships and mainstream capital borrowing than there has been this year and last year. I am sure that that will also be the case next year. Those are vital priorities that redress the balance of capital investment, which has been so lacking under successive governments over the past 20 or even 30 years. We are working to turn that situation round in Scotland and we will use a number of means to do so. We are working in a way that is appropriate and that gives best value for money. Sometimes that will be through mainstream capital borrowing and, at other times, through public-private partnerships.

Back in the 1980s when I sat on a council with Keith Harding, which he described as a "looney left council", we leased vehicles for the council to use for its public services. If that is an option that might help the fire service today, it is an option that is worth examining, but only if it offers value for money. It is not possible to discover whether that is the case unless a feasibility study is undertaken to test that option. Highlands and Islands fire brigade should do that and it should make a decent assessment of the options once the feasibility study is complete.

That concludes question time.

On a point of order, Presiding Officer. More than 80 per cent of the time that was allocated for questions in First Minister's question time was taken up by questions from John Swinney and David McLetchie. During the summer recess, will you give serious consideration to that matter? Will you consider steps that you might take to ensure that all members are given equal treatment?

I sympathise with you, but as you know, some members are more equal than others. The convention has been that the party leaders get more of the shots. However, I take your question seriously and I will reflect on it over the summer recess. It is a matter of regret that a large number of members were not called this afternoon.

We come to the major debate of the afternoon, which is on "Better Communities in Scotland: closing the gap". Margaret Curran will introduce the debate.