End Revenge Porn
The final item of business today is a members’ business debate on motion S4M-07333, in the name of Christina McKelvie, on end revenge porn Scotland. The debate will be concluded without any question being put.
Motion debated,
That the Parliament commends Scottish Women’s Aid on its recently launched campaign against revenge porn, the first of its kind in the UK; understands that the campaign has been featured in a range of press and media outlets, such as The Sunday Times, Grazia, Woman’s Hour and others, talking about revenge porn across the UK; notes that the term, revenge porn, refers to the act of a partner or ex-partner purposefully distributing images or videos of a sexual nature without the other person’s consent and that the threat of distributing or the distribution of such material can be used as a tactic of domestic abuse, continuing controlling behaviour that characterises such abuse; considers that the work of organisations such as Lanarkshire Rape Crisis in supporting victims of all forms of sexual violence and abuse is vital, and would welcome widespread support for such groups.
17:36
Christina McKelvie (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
Our everyday language is peppered with phrases rooted in the technology that we constantly use. There is a preponderance, though, of fruit: Apple, Orange and BlackBerry. It all sounds rather cosy and friendly, but there is a much blacker selection of terms that we have all become more aware of: online porn, online grooming and cyberbullying. More recently, we have become conscious of revenge porn.
Social media and all the photo message apps that go with it mean that an image can go viral in minutes. That is fine and a great idea. It is an ideal way for someone to share their holiday snaps with friends back home or to send family pictures to their children in Australia. I do not imagine that there is anything sinister in the minds of the developers who create the apps. However, in every positive piece of technology there seems to be a built-in backlash, and this time it is revenge porn.
A couple, in the privacy of their relationship, may choose to take private pictures or make videos for their own viewing. There is no question of exploitation, assuming that they are both over the age of consent, or of an act that is involuntary or exploitative. However, the couple may break up, and separation can bring out ugly and vengeful emotions. Putting private pictures on display across social networking sites requires a particularly malicious and abusive mindset.
Members should make no mistake: revenge porn is every bit as abusive as any other kind of domestic violence. Freedom of speech and freedom to protest cannot be translated into cyber abuse, as some would try to argue. Those actions are exploitative and cruel; they ruin lives and cost people their self-respect, their jobs and, in some cases, their lives. Twitter and Facebook may give us all the right to express an opinion, however bizarre or unpopular it may be, but they give no one the right to post pictures of ex-partners without either their knowledge or consent—it is not a licence to abuse.
Personal use of technology in its many forms is very difficult to police. It is so easy to press that button and post that picture, but the sad and tragic tales of those who have been exposed to revenge porn tell us how utterly devastating the effect can be. Victims are humiliated and controlled, just as they are in a physically abusive relationship.
Scottish Women’s Aid is to be commended for its innovative campaign against revenge porn. A mini-site within the SWA main website was launched in July. Its purpose is twofold: to reinforce the fact that sharing private moments with a partner is not offensive but making them public without the partner’s knowledge is; and to encourage more victims to come forward and tell their stories so that more people understand what is going on and just how abusive it is.
Decades ago, domestic abuse was not talked about or recognised—women walked into doors or fell downstairs. Things have moved on, although sadly there are still people in abusive relationships who are too frightened to come forward. Their confidence has been eaten away by their partners so effectively that many end up convinced that somehow the abuse is all their own fault. It is therefore vital that the new stop revenge porn Scotland site gains the maximum profile. That is why I am having this debate in the chamber.
Elaine Smith (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
I apologise for not being able to stay for the whole debate. Does the member agree that pornography in general is part of the spectrum of violence against women and children and that it must be challenged as such?
My friend and colleague Elaine Smith will know that my answer to that is yes. She will not be surprised about that—it is something that we have agreed on for many years.
As prevention worker Ellie Hutchinson from Scottish Women’s Aid puts it,
“Domestic abuse is about the purpose of such behaviour. It’s about control and humiliation. It’s about power. Like a punch or a kick, the threat of or actual distribution of images is purposeful. It has meaning and intent: to retain and gain power and control.”
Members will have heard the argument that women somehow bring abuse upon themselves. It is said that they present themselves to be kicked and abused or even raped, or that it is their own fault that they allowed those pictures to be taken or that they did not leave their partner after the first incident of abuse. That kind of shaming and humiliation feeds perfectly into the mind of the abuser: “She asked for it.” Of course she did not. Trying to force the responsibility on to the victim does not work any more effectively in cyber terms than it does in physical terms.
Ellie Hutchinson has seen that issue come up time and again. She says that one of the most consistent questions that women are asked is, “Why did you send or take those pictures?” To me, that is just a variation on the “Why does she stay?” theme, with added shaming around female sexuality. It places all the responsibility on the victim rather than the perpetrator. It keeps his actions hidden and normalises his behaviour. That is not an accident. This is sexism: those victim-blaming statements prevent us from talking about the men who do it, from challenging the websites that host the images and from exploring ways to prevent it. It is up to all of us to speak out against victim blaming and to change the conversation. The question that we really need to be asking—and answering—is not “Why did you do it?” but “Why does he think it’s okay?”
Revenge porn is a harmful form of bigotry and sexual harassment. It exposes victims’ sexuality in humiliating ways. Their naked photos appear on “slut shaming sites”. Once their naked images are exposed, anonymous strangers send email messages and threaten rape. Some have sent vile messages such as, “First I will rape you, then I will kill you”. Victims internalise these frightening and demeaning messages. I heartily commend Scottish Women’s Aid for fighting revenge porn and making sure that the message is loud and clear: “You did nothing wrong having private moments with a partner. They are wrong for sharing those moments with anyone else without your consent.”
Revenge porn is a new crime and it will take time and consultation to work out the best legal response. For the moment, there is a Scottish legal framework that can help victims using existing legislation. Discussions are on-going in the US, where revenge porn is now illegal in New Jersey and the state of California is considering introducing similar legislation. If we work together, this Parliament could consider that approach if it feels that it is appropriate.
I urge everyone to look at www.togetherwecanstopit.org, put up their story and their picture, and tell people, “You are not to blame”. I commend the motion to the Parliament.
17:43
I congratulate Christina McKelvie on securing time for this important debate and I commend her on a very thoughtful speech. I join her in commending Scottish Women’s Aid for its campaign, which I understand is probably the first in the world.
We can all agree that revenge porn is an unwelcome phenomenon of the digital age. It is shocking to see the extent to which domestic abuse can be perpetrated using social media and new technology. We know that domestic abuse is about power and control and that the consequences can be physical, sexual or emotional harm, but it would seem that power and control now extend to new forms of communication, whether Twitter, Facebook or other social media. The distribution by a partner of sexual or intimate images to strangers and in public in order to threaten, intimidate and embarrass is frankly abhorrent, but it is a new form of the exercise of power and control.
I ask members to imagine for a minute what it must feel like for someone to have such intimate images shared with all and sundry, and the horror when other people think that it is okay to then abuse them, in turn, because of images that a former partner has posted. That betrayal of trust is truly awful.
People who are subjected to revenge porn are victims. Christina McKelvie was right about that. They deserve our sympathy and our support. We should also be angry on their behalf. We must do all that we can do to stop this insidious new form of abuse. We must ensure that revenge porn has no place in our society. Collectively, we need to create the conditions in which women and others can come forward to report abuse, knowing that they will be given support when they do so.
It is equally essential that staff in agencies that are likely to deal with the consequences of revenge porn, such as local authorities and the police, are appropriately trained and are sensitive to victims’ needs. Too often, they do not know what to do or what the legal framework is. There needs to be practical knowledge of support services and a clear understanding of the law and the protections that are in place, notwithstanding that there might be a need to look further.
Existing legal remedies under the Communications Act 2003, the Criminal Justice and Licensing (Scotland) Act 2010 and the Protection from Harassment Act 1997 could be used. The question is whether we have used them. Have we measured their use? Have we begun to understand the scale of the problem and the barriers to reporting it? What more do we, collectively, need to do to ensure that there is appropriate action? I invite the minister to consider those points. What more can we do to ensure that the existing law is robustly enforced? Do we need to consider introducing legislation in the area?
When I visited the stop revenge porn Scotland website, I was struck by victims’ stories. Let me share Holly’s story with members. She wrote:
“He started posting explicit pictures and a video of me all over the Internet along with my full name, email address, job title, and specific details of where I worked and how far along I was in my PhD program. For 3 years damage control was a full-time job. I hired a lawyer to send him a letter. I begged and pleaded with 3 different police stations to file charges against him ... I hired an Internet specialist to help me take down the material. Ultimately, those avenues were dead ends”.
We need to act on the stories of Holly and many other women. It is up to all of us to speak out. It is up to all of us to ensure that revenge porn is stamped out and has no place in 21st century Scotland.
17:47
I congratulate Christina McKelvie on bringing this debate to the Parliament, and I commend Scottish Women’s Aid for raising awareness through its campaign. This is not an easy subject to discuss and debate, but it is important that we speak about it, because revenge porn, like every other form of porn, is a way of degrading and abusing—and therefore controlling—women.
The Women’s Aid briefing on the matter contains the shocking revelation that women who are subjected to revenge porn are often asked why they consented to the images being made in the first place. I agree with Christina McKelvie that that is a classic case of blaming the victim. It is quite clear that in such cases consent is limited and does not extend to the sharing of images with anyone other than the person involved—and certainly not with the wider public, let alone the world, via the internet.
I am pleased that there are legal remedies. Unlike some countries, such as Germany, Scotland does not have a law that was drafted specifically to deal with revenge porn. However, we have a number of other laws. As Jackie Baillie said, perhaps not enough people access the legal remedies. I commend Women’s Aid for explaining the remedies that people have, such as recourse under public indecency, breach of the peace and other offences under the Criminal Justice and Licensing (Scotland) Act 2010 or the Communications Act 2003.
The stop revenge porn website tells readers that a precedent was set in 2012 when a man was prosecuted in Dundee for posting images of his ex-partner on Facebook. There are also civil remedies, such as interdicts and defamation actions. The provision of such guidance is a way of empowering people, which is vital in the context of crimes in which the perpetrators set out to disempower and humiliate women.
The website also contains an uplifting and affirmative message to victims who, because of social norms, often blame themselves:
“It’s not you who should have known better. It’s not you who was silly. You are never to blame. You are never wrong to make an intimate moment with someone. They are wrong ... if they abuse/share this or threaten to do so!”
I would like to say something about revenge porn in its wider context. We cannot separate it from the growth of pornography generally. The biggest porn industry is in America, partly because of the size of the market and partly because of the constitutional right to free speech, which has been exploited by pornographers. Now that the internet crosses national boundaries and most of the big internet service providers operate according to American norms, we have seen an explosion of pornography around the world.
According to one estimate, there are nearly 25 million porn sites worldwide and they make up 12 per cent of all websites. Sebastian Anthony, writing for ExtremeTech, reports that Xvideos is the biggest porn site on the web, receiving 4.4 billion page views and 350 million unique visits a month. It is estimated to account for 30 per cent of all web traffic.
Is it any wonder, therefore, that broader online culture is also deeply sexist? We got a glimpse of that recently in the Twitter row when women were abused simply for campaigning to have a female image on Bank of England notes. It was indicative of a much larger problem.
I finish by quoting Danielle Keats Citron, professor of law at the University of Maryland, who has extensively researched the subject. She writes:
“The harassment of women online is a pernicious and widespread problem. It can be severe, involving threats of sexual violence, doctored photographs of women being suffocated, postings of women’s home addresses alongside the suggestion that they should be raped, and technological attacks that shut down feminist blogs and websites.”
She goes on to say that
“Cyber harassment is a uniquely gendered phenomenon”—
its victims are, overwhelmingly, female, just as about 85 per cent of users of pornography are male.
At the heart of revenge porn, therefore, lies the problem of male attitudes to women. Until we manage to tackle that effectively and to challenge misogyny wherever we find it, this phenomenon will not disappear.
17:51
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con)
I congratulate Christina McKelvie on bringing this extremely important debate to Parliament and, by doing so, highlighting Scottish Women’s Aid’s campaign to end revenge porn in Scotland.
For the avoidance of doubt, revenge porn covers the situation in which, say, a partner or ex-partner deliberately distributes to others images or videos of a sexual nature without the consent of the subject of those images. In effect, the images are made public.
With the advance and proliferation of modern forms of communication, there are a host of ways in which those private images can be made public—for example, by posting them online on social networking sites such as Facebook and on specific revenge porn sites. Images can also be sent via emails and texts as well as by post. Distressingly, those images, in whatever form that they are made public, are often accompanied by the individual’s name, address or place of employment.
That would be horrific for any individual who is the subject of revenge porn, regardless of age, but Scottish Women’s Aid is particularly concerned about the impact on young people. That is a very real issue, as evidenced by an NSPCC investigation that revealed an increasing pressure on girls aged as young as 12 to send sexually explicit images to their boyfriends.
In addition, the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre has highlighted that 70,000 still and moving indecent images of children were created in the United Kingdom last year, a fifth of which—some 14,000—were self-generated. Given that, there is an urgent requirement not only to educate our young people about the dangers of giving someone else possession of such an image but to ensure that young people learn about and appreciate the importance of establishing healthy and compassionate relationships based on mutual respect. In such relationships, there would be no question of either party being coerced into taking an indecent picture of themselves; nor would either party consider making an image of their current or former boyfriend or girlfriend public as an act of revenge.
Significantly, as the Scottish Women’s Aid campaign points out, the threat or the actual distribution of such material is a form of domestic abuse because of the implicit humiliation and control involved. Scottish Women’s Aid therefore seeks to reassure women who have been victims of revenge porn—an issue that affects men as well as women but, as Joan McAlpine pointed out, in much smaller numbers—that they are not at fault and that support and help are available. Crucially, the Scottish Women’s Aid campaign places responsibility firmly back on the perpetrators who made the image public without consent.
Once an image is put online, it is incredibly hard to remove it, as it might have been downloaded and saved on other computers. In effect, it never really disappears. The loss of dignity, the impact on people’s reputation and the effect that revenge porn can have on an individual’s working and personal relationships cannot be undone.
I therefore very much welcome Scottish Women’s Aid’s campaign to support women who have been victims of this atrocious act, and I hope that it can encourage more people to come forward and seek help. In particular, I support the call to consider how best to secure the prosecution of those who are involved in deliberately sharing images that have been made public without the subject’s consent.
17:56
Sandra White (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
I congratulate my colleague Christina McKelvie on securing this debate. I also congratulate—and welcome—people from Scottish Women’s Aid, whose landmark campaign against revenge porn, as Jackie Baillie said, is the first of its kind in the United Kingdom. I thank them and others who have supported the campaign.
Abuse—sexual, domestic, physical and emotional—is abhorrent. The perpetrators must be punished and the victims must be protected. I am on the Justice Committee, which is currently considering the Victims and Witnesses (Scotland) Bill. It is concerned with putting victims at the heart of the justice system. That bill is still open to amendments at stage 2. I do not want to put the minister on the spot, but perhaps we could think about using amendments to that bill to do something about the abhorrent crime that we are discussing.
We must recognise that revenge porn is a new form of abuse and is something that we must tackle. We have heard examples of abuses and Scottish Women’s Aid has included examples in its briefing. There must be nothing more horrifying for someone than to find out that—sometimes years later, as has been said—someone with whom they have shared a loving relationship has posted on social media websites images such as the ones that we have been discussing. It must be terrifying and horrifying to see pictures that were taken in, as Christina McKelvie said, a private moment being posted where other people can see them. People do not only put these pictures up on social media websites; they send them in letters and they email them to the individual concerned and to their workmates, as we have heard. They also include personal information such as where the person works, their name, their age and their address. It is horrifying. It must be like being stalked through social media websites.
That brings me to some of the issues that are raised in Scottish Women’s Aid’s handout. Others have talked about the legal remedies, but I would like the minister to clarify the situation with regard to the Communications Act 2003, which I understand to be reserved, not devolved. The briefing also mentions the Criminal Justice and Licensing (Scotland) Act 2010, which deals with stalking and abusive relationships. Perhaps we can fit an amendment into that act.
It is important that we support these women and that they are aware of what is happening with the campaign, but it is also important that we do something to protect these women legally. I point out that it is undoubtedly women rather than men who are the victims. I commend Joan McAlpine’s speech because, undoubtedly, revenge porn is another form of pornography and of abuse by men. Until we can rectify that and, perhaps, as Margaret Mitchell said, educate men in partnerships between people, we will never get rid of this type of porn or this type of abuse; it will just move on to something else.
I ask the minister to consider the issues that I have raised. Perhaps, collectively, this Parliament can amend the pieces of legislation that I have mentioned, particularly the one that is currently going through the Justice Committee.
18:00
Like others, I congratulate Christina McKelvie on securing the debate and on an excellent speech. I thoroughly enjoyed it.
Like others, I recognise the work of Scottish Women’s Aid not only on revenge porn but on the wider issues around domestic violence. Its power and worth as an organisation has done us all a great service in the past two weeks. We need to recognise that in the debate. I am personally grateful to Scottish Women’s Aid for supporting an event called next-generation feminists, which I recently hosted in the Parliament and in which the organisation played an integral part.
We are on the cusp, if not right in the middle, of a new phase of feminism being an in thing. There are a lot of national campaigns and we need to ensure that we capitalise on that. I refer to campaigns such as the lads mags campaign, the everyday sexism campaign, the no more page 3 campaign and the campaign for women on banknotes and the way in which the rape threats that came from that started a discourse on the power of social media and the threats that it poses.
I read in the paper this morning that no more page 3 is encouraging all the female MPs at Westminster, whenever they find a copy of The Sun in the House of Commons, to stick a no more page 3 sticker over page 3. I wonder whether there are enough women in the chamber to ensure that any page 3 newspaper in the Scottish Parliament might look somewhat different after tonight.
There is a point in that because, as much as I welcome the debate, looking around the room at my sisters, I feel a little bit like I am preaching to the converted. If we have a new phase of feminism, we need to ensure that we use that platform wisely and that it has an impact on the people who have the power to effect change. We need some brothers in the room and, particularly, on boards of multinational corporations and media outlets to listen to the debate and use the power that they have to change things for the benefit of everyone.
On revenge porn, I will talk briefly about the role and responsibility of the education on healthy relationships with which we provide young people.
I have done quite a lot of work recently on cyberbullying. I recently visited a school in Edinburgh—Craigmount high school—where I was shocked to discover that every pupil had an iPhone or a 3G-enabled smartphone in their pocket and that 40 per cent of the pupils had their own iPads or laptops of which they had exclusive use when they went home at night.
We need to understand that technology is developing at a far faster rate than society’s ability to cope with it. We do not really understand the impact that issues such as revenge porn on new media have on young people and the people who are exposed to them.
Cyberbullying is an example of that. The impact of cyberbullying is dark. It is subversive. It bubbles under the surface until it explodes in the most dramatic way for a young person. It is destroying lives and, often, it is too late.
Parents do not necessarily understand the technology. They think that, if their child is in the room upstairs, they are safe because they are not outside, but they are exposed to dangers that the parents do not necessarily understand.
Teachers perhaps do not know the dangers that the new media pose and, therefore, do not know how to address them in a classroom environment. However, the way in which we teach healthy relationships and sex education in the classroom environment needs to understand technology. If somebody gets involved in a relationship with a partner for the first time, they experience the sense of trust for the first time—what is okay and not okay to share; where the boundaries are. Those issues are smashed wide open when we apply technology to them and give a child a smartphone with the power to take a picture that can be around the world in seconds.
We need to understand the technological impact on how we teach sexual health and how we ensure that young people—particularly young women—grow up with a sense of self-confidence, self-esteem and control over their bodies being theirs and not men’s. Jackie Baillie described that well when she talked about power and control being at the heart of the domestic violence debate.
My colleague Richard Simpson put to the Education and Culture Committee a suggestion for a parliamentary inquiry into cyberbullying. I hope that the committee will consider and accept that suggestion. If it does, I wonder whether we can factor revenge porn and its impact on young people into the committee’s work.
18:04
The Minister for Commonwealth Games and Sport (Shona Robison)
I convey my thanks and congratulations to Christina McKelvie for securing the debate and for bringing this very important and timely matter to the Parliament. The speeches have been very thought-provoking and useful. It may be a shame that no men have contributed to the debate, but it is important that we build on the existing consensus among members in the chamber and that we widen the issue out to others in Parliament. There have been some very helpful suggestions about how we might go forward with that from tonight.
I congratulate the violence against women organisations such as Scottish Women’s Aid, Rape Crisis Scotland, the Zero Tolerance Trust and the Women’s Support Project for doing so much to bring revenge porn and other forms of violence against women to our attention. Using new media such as Twitter and Facebook, Scottish Women’s Aid in particular has reached thousands of people with information about revenge porn. Its mini-site has been very successful in stimulating debate and raising awareness. I understand that Ellie Hutchinson from Scottish Women’s Aid is to deliver a seminar on revenge porn for officials in the Scottish Government next month, which I am sure will be very informative and useful as we take the matter forward.
Violence against women involves a wide range of crimes and behaviours, as has been said by many people. Some are centuries old; others are newer and constantly developing and changing. It reflects the worst of humanity that some of us manage to find ways to pervert innovations such as new media and forms of instant communication, which should be positive, and turn them into something entirely negative. I am sure that pretty much all of us have taken a photo on our mobiles and shared it with family and friends. Something as simple as that can give a lot of pleasure, keep us in touch with people whom we do not see regularly and extend our connections outwith our own circles.
Revenge porn is particularly worrying because it combines forms of humiliation of specific targeted women with the generally increasing acceptability of objectified images of women. It also adds to the current very worrying trend that has seen women receiving rape and death threats on Twitter simply for expressing entirely legitimate views, or even because of their appearance. I am sure that we have all been appalled by those subversions of social media and the misogyny that they reveal.
Revenge porn affects us all. Even if we have not been directly affected, it affects us all as women, and societal attitudes to women are impacted upon by such things. Of course, we are all affected by a prevailing culture in which images of women’s bodies are used in a variety of negative ways.
Men, too, are adversely affected. Thankfully, only a small minority of men are abusive or violent towards women, but those who are not abusive or violent often feel unfairly accused, or that they are being lumped in with a group of men whose attitudes they abhor. Violence against women impacts on relationships between men and women, as does anything that prevents true equality between men and women.
Although all men are not the problem by any means, all men have a role in helping to end revenge porn and other forms of violence against women. Men often ask what they can do, apart from not using abuse or coercive control in their own relationships. The answer is quite straightforward. They can challenge their friends when they show around objectified images of women. They can act and not just be bystanders.
In addition to the women’s organisations that I mentioned earlier, there is also work in Scotland that is aimed at supporting men to challenge their peers. The White Ribbon Scotland campaign signs up men to pledge not to use, collude with, or remain silent about, violence against women.
There is also the mentors in violence prevention project, which the violence reduction unit has been piloting successfully in a number of schools. MVP trains young people in high schools to act as champions of non-violence and to challenge safely their peers about their attitudes and behaviour.
As many members will be aware, we are currently developing a violence against women strategy for Scotland. That strategy will bring together commitments from all partners across a range of directorates in the Scottish Government, the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, Police Scotland, NHS Scotland and, of course, our important third sector partners. It will be the first such document in Scotland and will shape how we tackle violence against women in the years ahead. It will reflect the new realities in which women are controlled, harassed and humiliated through the new media—the accessibility and reach of which have transmitted men’s abuse on to a world stage. The strategy is a good place for us to consider how we approach the issues that have been raised this evening.
Of course, the strategy will reinforce the links between all forms of violence against women—domestic abuse, rape, sexual assault, honour-based violence or commercial sexual exploitation. That important issue has been touched on. We know that women experience a spectrum of violence and that many women experience many forms of violence over their lifetimes. We believe that, because pornography objectifies women and commodifies them as being available for sale, it is a form of violence against women that has consequences that reach much further than those for the women who are involved in its production.
Revenge porn is an obvious example of the spectrum of violence against women, and it is an important issue of concern. It is a mark of the effectiveness of the women’s organisations in Scotland that the issue has been so quickly identified from the real experiences of women and brought to our attention.
There is a lot of debate at the moment about the kind of country that we want Scotland to be. I am sure that all members share the view that we want a Scotland where violence against women does not happen, is simply unthinkable and has been consigned to the past. We want a Scotland where no woman ever finds that intimate pictures of her have been distributed to the world in revenge and to humiliate her. I want a Scotland where no woman will be threatened with rape or death because she has expressed views or simply because she is in the public eye. We have some work to do to achieve that vision of Scotland, which I am sure we all share.
The positive thing about this evening’s debate is the consensus—it exists not just in Parliament, but in the many organisations and communities out there—that we can work together to make that happen. The new strategy is a good starting point.
Positive suggestions have been made during the debate, which I will ensure are taken forward. I am sure that the committees that have been mentioned will want to consider including this important issue in their work programmes. I hope that, from the small beginnings of tonight’s debate, bigger things can come.
Meeting closed at 18:12.