Indian Chefs
The final item of business is a members' business debate on motion S3M-2232, in the name of Brian Adam, on the shortage of Indian chefs in Aberdeen. The debate will be concluded without any question being put.
Motion debated,
That the Parliament notes that there is a shortage of Indian chefs in Aberdeen and elsewhere in Scotland and that the popularity of Indian food remains high, reflecting well on the appreciation of cultural diversity in our country; further notes the success of the Fresh Talent initiative in retaining overseas graduates, and commends consideration of a similar pilot scheme for Indian chefs in Scotland.
Chicken korma, beef dhansak, tikka masala, lamb madras—I am referring not to our First Minister's favourites from the curry house menu, but to authentic specialities of which we may see less and less in Scotland. Our local authentic Indian cuisine is under threat from new measures that are being poorly planned and implemented by the Home Office. The deadline for businesses to become registered sponsors of migrant workers is 30 November. I am informed that only around 200 of the thousands of businesses that were anticipated have signed up. The process gives the impression of being a complete shambles. Despite flashy advertising campaigns on the television, it is clear that something is amiss in the Home Office's methodology.
What we refer to as Indian cuisine comes from many parts of the south Asian subcontinent, including Bangladesh and Pakistan. I have met representatives of both the Bangladeshi and the Pakistani communities in my constituency in the north-east, and they are deeply concerned about the far-reaching effects that the new Home Office points system will have. The north-east Bangladeshi association informed me that more than 1,000 people are employed in the Indian food industry in the north-east. At the last count, there was a shortage in the area of about 65 trained chefs and kitchen staff from the subcontinent. I am confident that that shortage is reflected elsewhere in Scotland and the United Kingdom. The figure may now be considerably higher.
The fear of the association and many groups like it is that positions will not be filled by the specialised staff that they require. Skills in Indian cuisine are acquired through years of traditional cooking on location—in the home of the cuisine, using rather specialised cooking equipment. My colleague Mr Ahmad will tell us about some of the technicalities, especially those relating to the tandoors.
Several groups put the case that I have outlined before the Migration Advisory Committee before it published its findings on shortage occupation lists. I am glad that, in the report that it published yesterday, the committee recognised that that is indeed the case, although I suspect that that is not enough, given the extremely high thresholds that are being set for people to be recruited and to be eligible to fill vacant positions.
One thousand employees in the Indian restaurant industry would account for a substantial input into the local economy. The figures will presumably be larger for Edinburgh and Glasgow, and the effects of the new system's introduction will go wider than just the Indian food industry. I have sought clarification on the issue from Westminster and the Home Office, but it is safe to say that the information that I was given was as clear as mud.
I was contacted recently by the British Hospitality Association, which informed me:
"currently, about 70 per cent of hospitality sector work permits are for chefs at NVQ/SVQ level 3 and above and the overwhelming majority of these chefs are from Asia, so it is important that this source is not reduced or cut off when the new Points Based System comes into effect at the end of November."
Some of my colleagues in other parties might wonder why we go to the trouble of debating what seems to be a reserved matter. The fact is that the figures involved are not small when it comes to potential shortages, and the impact on the industry will be fairly significant. The shortages will have serious financial implications for the industry and for the nation as a whole, which the Scottish Parliament and Scottish Government might well be expected to deal with.
My colleagues and I seek independence for Scotland, which would be the case in an ideal world, although colleagues in other parties might take a different view. We should realise the importance of our constitutional future, and immigration might well be a highly suitable subject for further powers to be devolved to Scotland. Our situation in Scotland is different from that in the rest of the United Kingdom. Scotland is not by any means full, and the number of immigrants coming to Scotland as a proportion of the UK immigration figures is absolutely tiny.
The British Hospitality Association has aired fears that, come the registration deadline of 30 November, which the Home Office has imposed, the supply of chefs will completely dry up. Having met groups from my constituency, it is clear to me that the Home Office needs to work rather more closely with local restaurateurs. Concerns are higher, now that the Migration Advisory Committee has submitted that chefs are indeed a shortage occupation, which is due for special consideration under the new points system—but only if the chef earns more than £8.10 an hour after deductions for accommodation and meals. Folk may well take the view—perhaps rightly—that that is not a king's ransom, but the reality is that such chefs currently earn between £6.50 an hour and £7 an hour. The threshold has been set extremely high. It is very unlikely that the threshold as it has been set following the Migration Advisory Committee's consideration will address the shortages.
I have suggested to ministers north and south of the border that the fresh talent initiative is a good model—the motion makes that point—on which we might be able to build a solution. I hope that we can do that for skilled and semi-skilled workers, perhaps through a pilot programme in Scotland. We would not wish to allow any abuses—no one would want to see that—and we certainly do not want to have illegal immigration; rather, we want to have sensible, planned immigration to address the needs that we have been discussing.
I hope that a more sensible approach will be taken by colleagues in Westminster to allow the Scottish Government to press forward with plans to improve the Scottish economy in this area, and that a good Peshwari naan bread will not become a thing of the past.
I congratulate Brian Adam on securing the debate. There will be unanimity in the Parliament on the need to secure a successful future for the Indian restaurant industry in Scotland, particularly in Aberdeen, by ensuring that there is the right number of skilled people to sustain the industry. There can be no doubt that the representatives of the industry who are involved in the campaign on the matter and who came to the Scottish Parliament to highlight the issues have succeeded in getting their message across.
It will come as no surprise to members that I am a great fan of Indian cuisine, but it would be invidious of me to mention my favourite Indian restaurants in Aberdeen, because there are several of them. Aberdeen rightly enjoys an excellent reputation for its Indian restaurants, some of which have won UK-wide awards. I hope that they will continue to enjoy such success.
It would be unfortunate if the lack of the right skilled workers were to put the industry at risk. A number of issues are at play. Brian Adam is right to point out in the motion the success of the fresh talent initiative in bringing skilled people to Scotland to work in areas in which there is a specific need. I hope that the scheme's success can be built on through continued constructive discussion with the Home Office.
I am sure that all members are conscious that we must balance the desirability of bringing skilled workers into Britain and Scotland with the need for an effective immigration system. Such a balance is needed whatever the constitutional settlement—and, of course, I am an adherent of the current settlement. I understand that under the current system a special case can be made to the Home Office, so if shortages arise in the hospitality sector that affect restaurateurs there is scope for special arrangements to be made, on the advice of the Migration Advisory Committee.
As Brian Adam said, I understand that the committee has recommended that restaurants should be allowed to recruit chefs from overseas, provided that they have more than five years' experience and are paid a minimum of £8.10 per hour. That seems to represent considerable progress for the campaign. It is important that the people who take up positions are appropriately skilled and fairly paid—that is a principle in which Labour members strongly believe.
If there are further problems for Indian restaurants, I hope that consideration will be given to them. Every effort must be made to ensure that restaurant businesses are registered appropriately. I hope that greater efforts will be made to train people locally in the skills that are needed. If there is a need to assist the Indian restaurant industry in skills development for people locally, I hope that the Scottish Government will meet representatives of the industry to discuss the issue and that that it will take a positive view on support for the industry in that regard. It is important that the industry in Scotland should train people locally and not be dependent on bringing people from abroad to maintain crucial skills. I am sure that people from different backgrounds can enter the industry and develop their careers and skills.
I hope that the issues are addressed effectively and I am sure that all members look forward to continued success for Indian restaurants in Scotland—particularly in Aberdeen, of course.
Brian Adam has raised an important issue, albeit one that cannot readily be addressed by the Scottish Parliament. I have no doubt that some members will discuss the problems that face the Indian catering industry with our counterparts at Westminster.
Apart from the rising cost of rice, which is squeezing profit margins, the main threat to the industry appears to be a difficulty in recruiting skilled chefs, not only in Aberdeen but throughout Scotland and the UK. According to people in the industry, the main cause of the problem is the recent change in immigration rules, coupled with the fact that the offspring of many owners of Indian catering establishments do not want to follow their fathers into the trade and prefer to use their education to pursue professional careers in law, accountancy and the like.
Brian Adam dealt ably with the immigration issue. I will pursue a different line. It is clear that there is serious concern among people who think that they need to fill their staffing gap from the Indian sub-continent, but is that as much a cultural issue as it is an immigration issue? Is there a similar problem with ethnic chefs from outside the Commonwealth, for whom entry to the UK is even more problematic? For example, is there a shortage of Chinese chefs, or are second and third-generation Chinese in this country happy to follow the family tradition and run a catering establishment, whereas Indians are not happy to do so?
I do not know the answer to that, but we have to face up to the fact that, although we are increasingly eating out or consuming takeaway food—be it Indian, Chinese, Thai or even our own fish and chips—the catering industry is not regarded as the most attractive career option by many of our young people. It is hard work, with often unsocial hours, and it is not well paid. However, it is an extremely important industry, not only for those of us resident here but for the many tourists who visit us each year and who contribute enormously to our economic wellbeing.
We need to take a good hard look at the catering industry to make it more appealing to young people. In school, pupils should learn about international cooking and be allowed to experiment with Indian and other ethnic cuisines, with encouragement given to those with talent to progress to professional training as career chefs.
All the suggestions that the member makes are eminently sensible, but some cooking equipment—the tandoor, for example—is not widely used other than in the Indian sub-continent and Indian restaurants. Does she agree that it might be rather difficult to start training people without any background in that equipment?
Yes, although young people could start learning in school, with specialist training coming after that.
I read with interest that restaurant owners in Birmingham have come up with a novel way to attract the children of Indian, Bangladeshi and Pakistani immigrants into the cooking trade by launching a major plan to open the world's first balti academy. If it gets going next year as planned, with its centrepiece of an international academy where trainee chefs will be able to study for a one-year diploma in multiple styles of Asian cuisine, it could do a lot to improve the image of Indian cooking as a career choice and, I hope, attract young people into the trade—not necessarily only those from an ethnic background but other young people with an interest in cooking. I accept that that is unlikely to be replicated in Scotland, with our smaller ethnic population, but I see no reason why our further education establishments, such as Aberdeen College, should not offer similar opportunities and so talk up the benefits of training as a chef specialising in Asian cooking.
Clearly, that would not be a quick fix, and the case needs to be made strongly to those who control immigration that skilled chefs from the sub-continent are needed to support the Indian catering industry in Aberdeen and elsewhere in the UK. However, if the industry is to develop in a sustainable way, it is essential that we train our own young people.
Foreign cuisine, and probably most notably Asian cuisine, has revolutionised our eating habits in this country during my lifetime. Curry is one of our nation's favourite dishes, and Indian restaurants make a major contribution to our economy. It is clearly important for us all that the industry prospers, but in the long term that has to be done by training up our home-grown talent to become Indian chefs and to carry on the excellent work initiated by immigrants to this country in the 1950s and 1960s, which they built up into the major industry that we appreciate so much today.
I congratulate my colleague Brian Adam on securing this most important debate.
It is no secret that I used to own an Indian restaurant in the 1970s. I take great pride in the fact that it was the first curry restaurant in the Rutherglen area. Even back in those days, when immigration laws were not so severe, it was difficult to recruit experienced curry chefs.
Making a good curry, and everything that goes with it, is a difficult process. It requires chefs of a high calibre who have experience of watching their parents making curry in the open air, day in and day out. That is not something that can be taught and is invaluable experience. Therefore, recruiting chefs from the sub-continent not only makes business sense but is often essential with regard to the skills that they possess.
Yesterday's recommendations in the Migration Advisory Committee report were well intentioned, but they have done little to calm fears in Scotland's curry industry. The report recommended that chefs be allowed in from outside the European Union only on the condition that they be paid £8.10 an hour. That threshold is unrealistic and much higher than what curry restaurants in Scotland and much of the UK can afford. The average curry chef or tandoor chef currently earns between £6.50 and £7 an hour. An increase to £8.10 an hour will have a devastating effect on Indian restaurants throughout the country. Many will not be able to operate or will have to scale down vastly. That will have a negative effect on our economy, which we cannot afford at this time.
I will meet representatives of the curry industry in Scotland to discuss the matter further. We have five weeks before the UK Government finalises its policy on the matter. I will work tirelessly with our ministers and MPs to save our country's favourite dish: chicken tikka masala. I have no doubt that many members will wish to do the same.
I congratulate Brian Adam on securing the debate. He made a little jibe at the First Minister in his opening sentence, so I hope that the much-mooted Cabinet reshuffle is not coming up shortly and that he has not blown his chances with that.
It is right that we should all declare an interest in the debate. I certainly have an interest in eating Indian food and many other types of cuisine from around the world. As I represent a big region—Mid Scotland and Fife—I would find it difficult, unlike Richard Baker, to list my favourite restaurants in the many constituencies in the region.
Takeaway and restaurant food from many nations has really taken off in Scotland over the past 25 years. It makes a valuable contribution to the economy by providing employment opportunities, particularly for people who are perhaps moving into industry and work for the first time. I know many people who get their first taste of employment working in such environments. It is important that we acknowledge that.
Brian Adam was right to raise immigration in the way that he did. This is the right place to have that debate. He will recall that Jack McConnell previously played a key role in raising the different migration issues—the different attitudes and challenges—that we have in Scotland. The Scottish Parliament exists to discuss such matters, and I am sure that Brian Adam agrees that some issues were worked through and dealt with at that time.
I acknowledge the role that Jack McConnell played in instigating the fresh talent initiative, which was widely supported, but we could also make representations to the Migration Advisory Committee to have a different threshold for expected salary levels, for example, or other measures that might allow a pilot programme in Scotland to tackle the issue that we are debating. I understand why people want to control immigration, but the committee's proposal will affect us all negatively, when we could find a Scottish solution that might be beneficial for the UK.
There is a UK solution to the matter as well. The issue that Brian Adam has raised applies not only in Scotland but has been dealt with in some of the research that I have done in the midlands and other parts of the United Kingdom. There are representations to be made, but they will not be Scottish representations only, although there will be a Scottish context to anything that happens in the UK Parliament. I hope that that will flow from this debate.
Levers already exist that this Parliament could use—Nanette Milne mentioned levers to do with skills and how we can improve the skills mix of people who work in restaurants and takeaway shops. There has been a reduction in investment in modern apprenticeships in areas other than construction and engineering, particularly for adults. Many companies rely on investment in hospitality. In that regard, there are some lessons to be learned from south of the border.
The academy of Asian culinary arts at Thames Valley University launched the UK's first curry course in 1999. Provision at the university has been developed over recent years, and I understand that it now runs a number of extremely successful courses. It would be good to consider similar provision in Scotland, because we are talking about making a part of the economy sustainable and enriching our country by learning from the different cultures that come here.
I will conclude by commenting on the wider issue of migrant workers who come to Scotland. As well as talking about immigration and its consequences, and the problem of skills shortages in Scotland, we should be talking about migrant workers' experiences, which are not all favourable. In an area of Perthshire that I represent, migrant workers have not been looked after properly by their employers. Such issues should form part of the debate, because we want to ensure that Scotland is a good place to live and work and that people have good experiences here.
I wish Brian Adam every success in his efforts.
John Park hit the nail on the head when he said that this is a subject on which we should all declare an interest. As someone who comes from Glasgow, the curry capital of Scotland, I certainly have an interest to declare.
The Scottish Government has been aware of the issue for some time. In fact, the Cabinet Secretary for Justice wrote to the Home Secretary in January this year to raise the industry's concerns. Our economic strategy recognises the links between population and economic growth—that is why we have set ambitious targets to match the average EU 15 population growth by 2017. The Government believes that we should have more powers over immigration to allow us to meet Scotland's distinct needs.
The national conversation explores those issues. We feel strongly that greater control over immigration would enable the Scottish Government to boost Scotland's population and meet the skills needs of the Scottish economy. Flexibilities can work: the fresh talent working in Scotland scheme has been a Scottish success story. I pay tribute to Jack McConnell for starting it some years ago. Around 8,500 international graduates have stayed on in Scotland.
Will the minister describe for us the role of Scottish ministers in relation to the Migration Advisory Committee? Can she make representations to that body on behalf of Scottish interests?
I will come on to that. We have discussed the issues in question with the MAC because they are extremely important to Scotland, and we will continue to do so in the country's best interests.
I recognise the terms of Brian Adam's motion and am glad that the subject is being well aired. I am not entirely convinced that it would be feasible to have a scheme specifically for the restaurant trade, but the motion asks merely that the idea be considered. All ideas on how to meet the needs of such a vital industry are considered.
We must ensure that the migration system is fit for purpose for all industries in Scotland, including the agriculture, oil and information technology industries. Sufficient flexibility needs to be built into the new points-based system to allow employers to bring in the skills that they need when those skills cannot be found locally. We are pressing the Home Office for further flexibilities in the UK's managed migration system, so that we can continue to attract and retain people in key areas of economic activity. We should not forget the economic activity that is generated by catering in general and by the specific form of catering that we are discussing this evening. Tonight's discussions will help us to shape those discussions with the Home Office.
I have noted members' concerns. For example, Richard Baker expressed concerns about training, and I am happy to discuss those with the industry.
As members know, the Scottish shortage occupation list came out yesterday, so this is a timely discussion. The lists were compiled by the Migration Advisory Committee using, in part, evidence from employers on where shortages in the labour market might effectively be filled by migration. As well as the Government and its officials being in contact with the MAC throughout the process of collecting evidence, representatives of the south Asian restaurant industry fed in their views and I understand that they also attended discussions in Glasgow earlier this year.
Skilled chefs are included in the UK list and, to clarify what members have said, it is only skilled chefs who are, as we have heard, earning at least £8.10 per hour after deductions for accommodation, meals and so on. Those who are at national vocational qualification level 3, as discussed by Brian Adam, are not on the shortage occupation list.
Restaurateurs also have a responsibility to ensure that local people are given the necessary opportunities and skills to become contributing members of society—many restaurateurs do that. Nanette Milne, in particular, picked up on that point. I understand where she is coming from. I am particularly fascinated by the idea of a balti academy; it would be a good place to go to test the skills of those who were in training.
The minister has talked about making representations to the Home Office. Could she also make representations to the Cabinet Secretary for Education and Lifelong Learning about refocusing adult apprenticeships? Skills Development Scotland and the cabinet secretary will be looking at that in the future; I hope that Linda Fabiani agrees that we need a better mix within the industry, so perhaps hospitality and Indian cuisine should also be considered.
I am sure that the Cabinet Secretary for Education and Lifelong Learning will be very interested to read the contributions to this debate. Of course, People 1st, the sector skills council for the hospitality industry, has identified and highlighted issues with the training of chefs. It is working with key bodies including Skills Development Scotland, colleges and universities to explore ways in which that can be addressed. Again, a lot of what has been said in the chamber this evening taps in to that. As John Park said, it is interesting that such a scheme is already under way at Thames Valley University.
Training is important, but we would also like Scotland to have more powers to allow our Government to reflect Scotland's needs and experiences by doing more to boost our population and add to the richness of our society. We are determined to create opportunities so that fewer Scots feel the need to leave, more Scots are encouraged to return, and other people are attracted to come and be part of Scotland.
We remain supportive of the industry, which is extremely important economically and culturally. It was good to hear Bashir Ahmad talking about his experiences in the industry—I will be interested to hear from him about the discussions that he has with people in the industry that he knows so well.
Asian food is a firm favourite in Scotland. We have always welcomed workers from the Indian subcontinent, and we in the Government and, as has been made clear tonight, across Parliament, will continue to work with the restaurant industry to ensure that that remains the case.
Meeting closed at 17:34.