Chamber and committees

Meeting of the Parliament

Meeting date: Wednesday, March 8, 2023

Business Motion

The Presiding Officer (Alison Johnstone)

The next item of business is consideration of business motion S6M-081050, in the name of George Adam, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, setting out a business programme.

Motion moved,

That the Parliament agrees—

(a) the following programme of business—

Tuesday 14 March 2023

2.00 pm Time for Reflection

followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions

followed by Topical Questions (if selected)

followed by Scottish Government Debate: Trade (Australia and New Zealand) Bill - UK Legislation

followed by Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee Debate: The Role of Local Government and its Cross-sectoral Partners in Financing and Delivering a Net-zero Scotland

followed by Committee Announcements

followed by Business Motions

followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions

5.00 pm Decision Time

followed by Members’ Business

Wednesday 15 March 2023

2.00 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions

2.00 pm Portfolio Questions:
Rural Affairs and Islands;
Health and Social Care

followed by Scottish Government Debate: Delivering the Scottish Government’s Vision for Agriculture through the Agricultural Reform Route Map

followed by Business Motions

followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions

followed by Approval of SSIs (if required)

5.00 pm Decision Time

followed by Members’ Business

Thursday 16 March 2023

11.40 am Parliamentary Bureau Motions

11.40 am General Questions

12.00 pm First Minister’s Questions

followed by Members’ Business

2.30 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions

2.30 pm Portfolio Questions:
Social Justice, Housing and Local Government

followed by Stage 1 Debate: Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill

followed by Legislative Consent Motion: Procurement Bill - UK Legislation

followed by Legislative Consent Motion: Social Security (Additional Payments) (No. 2) Bill - UK Legislation

followed by Business Motions

followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions

5.00 pm Decision Time

Tuesday 21 March 2023

2.00 pm Time for Reflection

followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions

followed by Topical Questions (if selected)

followed by Scottish Government Business

followed by Committee Announcements

followed by Business Motions

followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions

5.00 pm Decision Time

followed by Members’ Business

Wednesday 22 March 2023

2.00 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions

2.00 pm Portfolio Questions:
Constitution, External Affairs and Culture;
Justice and Veterans

followed by Scottish Government Business

followed by Business Motions

followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions

followed by Approval of SSIs (if required)

5.00 pm Decision Time

followed by Members’ Business

Thursday 23 March 2023

11.40 am Parliamentary Bureau Motions

11.40 am General Questions

12.00 pm First Minister’s Questions

followed by Members’ Business

2.30 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions

2.30 pm Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body Questions

2.45 pm Portfolio Questions:
Education and Skills

followed by Scottish Government Business

followed by Business Motions

followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions

5.00 pm Decision Time

(b) that, for the purposes of Portfolio Questions in the week beginning 13 March 2023, in rule 13.7.3, after the word “except” the words “to the extent to which the Presiding Officer considers that the questions are on the same or similar subject matter or” are inserted.—[George Adam]

The Presiding Officer

I call Douglas Lumsden to speak to and move amendment S6M-08150.1.

16:55

Douglas Lumsden (North East Scotland) (Con)

My amendment seeks to insert ministerial statements into next week’s business. First, we are looking for a statement on the disastrous deposit return scheme. It is turning into complete farce. Most of the producers are not signed up to the scheme and the minister was unable to answer basic questions in this chamber yesterday. The Scottish National Party leadership hopefuls have cast doubt on the scheme and it is only right that the minister gives us an update.

Secondly, we want a statement on the ferry fiasco. At yesterday’s Finance and Public Administration Committee, the minister was unable to answer what the total cost of vessels 801 and 802 would be, and there are now fresh doubts about the timescales. Our island communities deserve better, and they deserve to be updated.

The final statement that we are looking for is on the funding U-turn for our Sistema Scotland projects across the country. Last Wednesday, I asked Neil Gray, who is the responsible minister, to step in and save Big Noise Torry. He said:

“This an issue for our local authorities to determine; it is not for MSPs or Government ministers to intervene in local government decisions.”—[Official Report, 1 March 2023; c 7.]

Less than 48 hours later, the Government performed a screeching U-turn and announced funding for the two Big Noise projects that the SNP administrations had axed in Dundee and Aberdeen. That lifeline is, of course, welcome—[Interruption.]—but questions remain. [Interruption.]

The Presiding Officer

Let us hear Mr Lumsden.

Douglas Lumsden

As I said, questions remain, which is why we are looking for a ministerial statement to be added to the business programme. Those questions include: is that a one-year reprieve? Will the big noise projects that other local authorities are funding now be funded by this devolved Government instead? What changed following the minister’s response last week? Will the Government condemn the disgraceful comments that SNP councillors in Aberdeen made about Sistema Scotland?

When I was the co-leader of Aberdeen City Council, I had four budgets to set. Four times, council officers offered up big noise Torry as a potential saving, and, four times, I rejected that, because I knew the impact that the project has on those who are most vulnerable. Now, however, we have a shambles of an administration running Aberdeen City Council, which is led by SNP councillor Alex Nicoll, and that is, shamefully, propped up by the Liberal Democrats. They did not just defund the project; they verbally attacked Sistema Scotland with a disgusting attack on the good work that it does in a shameful attempt to discredit it.

Councillor Allard, who is a former member of this place, and someone who is meant to represent Torry—the very community that Sistema Scotland is supporting—said:

“Sistema had no impact on the people that needed help the most”.

He also said:

“Let’s be very clear, if we had the money, we wouldn’t do it either”.

The other SNP councillor for Torry, Councillor Fairfull, said:

“The council could not fund a project that has not deliver expected outcomes”.

What an absolute load of mince. The evidence reports are there for Councillors Nicoll, Allard, Fairfull and Yuill to read if they could be bothered to.

Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)

On a point of order, Presiding Officer.

I understand that this is an amendment to a business motion, but I am hearing a speech about council matters. I seek your guidance as to whether this is relevant.

The Presiding Officer

Mr Lumsden is seeking a statement on those issues.

Douglas Lumsden

I have visited big noise Torry and I know the good work that it does. It deserves to be treated better than it is at present. The attack by local SNP councillors was shameful, resulting in the massive SNP spin machine rushing into overdrive and getting involved in a panic. No doubt that is because the SNP fears the impact that that betrayal would have on the fortunes of their SNP leader at Westminster, who is meant to represent Torry.

The response was predictable and pathetic in equal measure. Instead of the blame being put on the SNP councillors who wielded the axe, the blame is to be passed to the Tories at Westminster—it is absolutely pathetic. Budgets are about choices, and the councils in Dundee and Aberdeen shamefully chose to axe Big Noise programmes. When the SNP-Liberal Democrat councillors are looking for someone to blame for libraries closing, swimming pools closing and Big Noise closing, they need to take some responsibility and have a look in the mirror. They alone are responsible for the choices and the cuts that they make.

Sistema changes the lives of our most vulnerable. It has a brilliant early intervention and prevention programme. I get it, and I am genuinely pleased that the minister agrees and has stepped in, but questions remain. A statement on Sistema funding will clear up these questions and allow the devolved Government to reaffirm its commitment to Sistema.

I move, as an amendment to motion S6M-08150 in the name of George Adam, to leave out

“2.30 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions

2.30 pm Portfolio Questions:
Social Justice, Housing and Local Government”

and insert:

“2.00 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions

2.00 pm Portfolio Questions:
Social Justice, Housing and Local Government

followed by Ministerial Statement: Children’s Orchestras Funding U-turn

followed by Ministerial Statement: Ferguson Marine and Ferry Services Update

followed by Ministerial Statement: Deposit Return Scheme Update”.

The Presiding Officer

I call Neil Bibby to speak to and move amendment S6M-08150.2.

17:00

Neil Bibby (West Scotland) (Lab)

On behalf of Scottish Labour, I would like to pay tribute once again to our parliamentary staff for all their hard work in supporting us and ensuring the efficient running of Parliament. Their work is vital, and we cannot thank them enough.

We must also recognise the decision by members of the Public and Commercial Services Union in Parliament to take part in industrial action next Wednesday, as is their right, and we should all respect their decision to do so.

In the light of the industrial action, we propose to move parliamentary business next Wednesday. We would move the agriculture debate to Tuesday and portfolio questions to Thursday. We are also happy to support additional statements being included on Ferguson Marine, children’s orchestra funding and the deposit return scheme. That is all business that can easily be done next week on alternative dates. The Welsh Senedd is moving its business, and we should do the same here.

The last time that Parliament sat during industrial action, the public gallery was closed. That was regrettable and should not have happened. It has not been confirmed yet by the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body whether that will happen next Wednesday. If there is still the possibility of our having to meet without the public gallery being open—which there is—we should not plan to meet at all unless there is urgent or critical business.

Of course, we hope that the industrial dispute can be resolved as soon as possible. However, until then, we must recognise the importance of our staff to the safe and professional running of the Parliament and its business. Our staff are essential. Any other course of action here would send a message that they are not. Our staff support us; we should support them where we can.

I move amendment S6M-08150.2, to leave out from first

“followed by Committee Announcements”

“Tuesday 21 March 2023”

and insert:

“followed by Scottish Government Debate: Delivering the Scottish Government’s Vision for Agriculture through the Agricultural Reform Route Map

followed by Committee Announcements

followed by Business Motions

followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions

followed by Decision Time

followed by Members’ Business

Thursday 16 March 2023

11.40 am Parliamentary Bureau Motions

11.40 am General Questions

12.00 pm First Minister's Questions

followed by Members’ Business

2.30 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions

2.30 pm Portfolio Questions:
Social Justice, Housing and Local Government;
Rural Affairs and Islands;
Health and Social Care

followed by Stage 1 Debate: Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill

followed by Legislative Consent Motion: Procurement Bill - UK Legislation

followed by Legislative Consent Motion: Social Security (Additional Payments) (No. 2) Bill - UK Legislation

followed by Business Motions

followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions

followed by Approval of SSIs (if required)

5.25 pm Decision Time

followed by Members’ Business”

The Presiding Officer

I call George Adam to respond on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau.

17:02

The Minister for Parliamentary Business (George Adam)

We received the request from the Conservative Party late on Monday. I have committed to coming back to the bureau with a response, as per standard bureau process. I have heard more detail from Mr Lumsden now than I heard at bureau. As you will agree, Presiding Officer, the whole point of having the Parliamentary Bureau is to give us a place where we can have these discussions and make such points there and then.

None of that came from the Conservatives’ business manager. He mentioned the statement, and I said that we would look into it. Nothing else was said with regard to that. Excuse me if I am slightly cynical about the political opportunism of the Conservatives in this situation.

On Mr Bibby’s amendment regarding next week’s PCS strike action, I, too, pay tribute to all the Scottish Parliament staff and the work that they do to make our work better. However, as we discussed at bureau, Parliament will be sitting as normal at that time, subject to the corporate body agreeing to that in its meeting tomorrow.

The Presiding Officer

The question is, that amendment S6M-08150.1, in the name of Douglas Lumsden, which seeks to amend business motion S6M-08150, in the name of George Adam, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, setting out a business programme, be agreed to. Are we agreed?

Members: No.

The Presiding Officer

There will be a division. There will be a short suspension to allow members to access the digital voting system.

17:04 Meeting suspended.

17:06 On resuming—

The Presiding Officer

For

Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con)
Cameron, Donald (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab)
Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab)
Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD)
Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con)
Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab)
Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con)
Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con)
Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con)
Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con)
Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con)
Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab)
Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab)
Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD)
Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab)
Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con)
Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con)
White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con)
Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)

Against

The Presiding Officer

The result of the division is: For 56, Against 65, Abstentions 0.

Amendment disagreed to.

The Presiding Officer

The question is, that amendment S6M-08150.2, in the name of Neil Bibby, which seeks to amend business motion S6M-08150, in the name of George Adam, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, setting out a business programme, be agreed to. Are we agreed?

Members: No.

The Presiding Officer

There will be a division.

For

Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab)
Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab)
Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab)
Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab)
O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab)
Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab)
Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab)

Against

Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP)
Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP)
Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con)
Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP)
Cameron, Donald (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP)
Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con)
Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP)
Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con)
Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con)
Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con)
Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP)
Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP)
McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD)
Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP)
Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP)
Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP)
Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con)
Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con)
White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con)
Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)

Abstentions

Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green)
Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green)
Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green)
Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)

The Presiding Officer

The result of the division is: For 22, Against 94, Abstentions 5.

Amendment disagreed to.

The Presiding Officer

The next question is, that motion S6M-08150, in the name of George Adam, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, setting out a business programme, be agreed to. Are we agreed?

Members: No.

The Presiding Officer

There will be a division.

For

Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP)
Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con)
Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP)
Cameron, Donald (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP)
Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con)
Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP)
Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con)
Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con)
Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con)
Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green)
Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP)
Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green)
Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP)
McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD)
Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP)
Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP)
Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP)
Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con)
Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con)
White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con)
Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)

Against

Abstentions

Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con)

The Presiding Officer

The result of the division is: For 97, Against 22, Abstentions 1.

Motion agreed to,

That the Parliament agrees—

(a) the following programme of business—

Tuesday 14 March 2023

2.00 pm Time for Reflection

followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions

followed by Topical Questions (if selected)

followed by Scottish Government Debate: Trade (Australia and New Zealand) Bill - UK Legislation

followed by Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee Debate: The Role of Local Government and its Cross-sectoral Partners in Financing and Delivering a Net-zero Scotland

followed by Committee Announcements

followed by Business Motions

followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions

5.00 pm Decision Time

followed by Members’ Business

Wednesday 15 March 2023

2.00 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions

2.00 pm Portfolio Questions:
Rural Affairs and Islands;
Health and Social Care

followed by Scottish Government Debate: Delivering the Scottish Government’s Vision for Agriculture through the Agricultural Reform Route Map

followed by Business Motions

followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions

followed by Approval of SSIs (if required)

5.00 pm Decision Time

followed by Members’ Business

Thursday 16 March 2023

11.40 am Parliamentary Bureau Motions

11.40 am General Questions

12.00 pm First Minister’s Questions

followed by Members’ Business

2.30 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions

2.30 pm Portfolio Questions:
Social Justice, Housing and Local Government

followed by Stage 1 Debate: Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill

followed by Legislative Consent Motion: Procurement Bill - UK Legislation

followed by Legislative Consent Motion: Social Security (Additional Payments) (No. 2) Bill - UK Legislation

followed by Business Motions

followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions

5.00 pm Decision Time

Tuesday 21 March 2023

2.00 pm Time for Reflection

followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions

followed by Topical Questions (if selected)

followed by Scottish Government Business

followed by Committee Announcements

followed by Business Motions

followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions

5.00 pm Decision Time

followed by Members’ Business

Wednesday 22 March 2023

2.00 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions

2.00 pm Portfolio Questions:
Constitution, External Affairs and Culture;
Justice and Veterans

followed by Scottish Government Business

followed by Business Motions

followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions

followed by Approval of SSIs (if required)

5.00 pm Decision Time

followed by Members’ Business

Thursday 23 March 2023

11.40 am Parliamentary Bureau Motions

11.40 am General Questions

12.00 pm First Minister’s Questions

followed by Members’ Business

2.30 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions

2.30 pm Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body Questions

2.45 pm Portfolio Questions:
Education and Skills

followed by Scottish Government Business

followed by Business Motions

followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions

5.00 pm Decision Time

The Presiding Officer

The next item of business is consideration of business motion S6M-08151, in the name of George Adam, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, on a stage 1 timetable for a bill. I invite George Adam to move the motion.

Motion moved,

That the Parliament agrees that consideration of the National Care Service (Scotland) Bill at stage 1 be completed by 30 June 2023.—[George Adam]

The Presiding Officer

I call Paul O’Kane to speak to and move amendment S6M-08151.1.

17:12

Paul O’Kane (West Scotland) (Lab)

This week, we have heard much about the proposed National Care Service (Scotland) Bill, not in the chamber but in the newspapers and, of course, on our televisions, including during last night’s unedifying—I think that that is putting it mildly—SNP leadership debate.

Indeed, positions on the bill have been shifting more quickly than the bureau and the Parliament can keep up with. Last night, the national care service was discussed—sorry, rammied over—by the candidates. It has been clear since the start of the leadership campaign that all the candidates are now articulating different forms of a pause to the bill. [Interruption.] I am pleased that the SNP leadership candidates have now accepted what Scottish Labour, trade unions, professional bodies and local government have been arguing for months, but it is becoming—

The Presiding Officer

Mr O’Kane, just give me a moment. I am aware that several conversations are taking place across the chamber. I would be grateful if those could wait until members leave the chamber.

Paul O’Kane

I know that SNP back benchers will be comparing the performances of their respective candidates last night.

Clearly, there is no unity in the Government on the way forward with the bill. In a matter of weeks, we have shifted from the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care and other senior ministers defending the bill to the hilt to the cabinet secretary now admitting that the bill, in its current form, needs to be paused and overhauled.

The Government’s motion suggests that the timetable for completion of stage 1 should be moved to June, but the Government has failed to explain why June is the most suitable time. Is it because it is politically expedient for the Government to move stage 1 until after the SNP leadership election, once the candidates have finished ripping one another to shreds and the Government has cobbled together a common position?

Presiding Officer,

“How much longer do people who need adult social care need to wait until we’ve got a system that isn’t being called into disrepute by the trade unions, local government and four parliamentary committees?”

Those are not my words; they are the words of Kate Forbes from last night’s debate, when she was eviscerating Humza Yousaf’s record as Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care. It appears that she and I agree on something, because she is right.

If the Government is serious about re-engaging with stakeholders, bringing people back around the table and building confidence in its national care service proposals, the stage 1 process cannot be moved down the tracks to a more suitable time for the SNP with no action in between to re-engage those stakeholders. It must be paused until at least the later part of the year to give sufficient time for the bill to be redrafted and brought back to the Parliament by a new health secretary for scrutiny. Indeed, that is exactly the position that the current health secretary is advocating since his Damascene conversion to supporting a pause to the bill.

How can the bill proceed on a June timetable when the Government is in such a state of disarray? Last night, it was made abundantly clear for all the public to see that Humza Yousaf’s own Cabinet colleagues do not have faith in his ability to serve as health secretary. Kate Forbes said the quiet part out loud when she less than discreetly admitted that she would sack him as health secretary if she became First Minister.

We need a proper pause to the National Care Service (Scotland) Bill to allow an opportunity for stakeholders to get back round the table and to make it right. Moving stage 1 until June does not allow sufficient time for that vital work to be undertaken. In the context of the Government being in a state of total disarray with Cabinet colleagues publicly arguing and contradicting one another, we need a proper pause until at least November to ensure that we have a proposal for a national care service that is fit for purpose and has the confidence of key stakeholders. That is what we, on the Labour benches, have argued for consistently. It is time that the Government got a grip and got on with redrafting the bill.

I move amendment S6M-08151.1, to leave out “30 June 2023” and insert:

“1 November 2023”.

17:16

Craig Hoy (South Scotland) (Con)

I thank Paul O’Kane for his amendment.

Finally, the SNP has come to the same realisation as the unions, local authorities, its own back benchers and the public. It is the realisation to which committees of the Parliament came: that the national care service plans are unaffordable, unworkable and a massive distraction from the crisis in care that the SNP has created across Scotland.

Even the cabinet secretary responsible for the bill, Humza Yousaf, is beating a hasty retreat from his own policy. He is not alone, of course, because the SNP’s leadership candidates are undermining the policy and throwing it overboard as they seek to abandon Nicola Sturgeon’s legacy in their desperate bid to captain the SNP’s sinking ship.

Perhaps the only person in Scotland who still believes that there will be a national care service is Kevin Stewart. The minister believes that, so long as the music is playing, he will get up and dance. The only problem is that, on the national care service, the minister is still dancing but the music has stopped.

The decision today should be about whether we ditch or delay the bill. The national care service policy is clearly wrong for Scotland and is in disarray. Only last night, we saw the fissures laid bare as two ministers and one former minister trashed policies from the manifesto upon which they were elected.

It is no surprise that the Government is now seeking to delay the bill, but to try to hide from the Parliament why it is doing so is an outrage. The Minister for Mental Wellbeing and Social Care and the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care must come before Parliament and explain to members their concerns about the bill and their climb-down.

The vote still will not go far enough. The Parliament should be voting to scrap the SNP’s failing social care plans because social care in Scotland is in crisis and the last thing that carers, staff and patients need is a major bureaucratic overhaul of the system that would divert precious resources away from the front line and into employing hundreds more management and administrative staff. The SNP must listen to those voices, abandon the plans and put every penny into front-line care.

In the absence of a total withdrawal of the plan, we support the longer delay proposed by Labour. However, the delay, whether to June or November, will inevitably be only a precursor to the bill being scrapped once the SNP’s divisive leadership election comes to a close. We simply cannot afford to see £1.3 billion diverted away from front-line local services when the sector is crying out for help.

The Presiding Officer

Mr Hoy, can I stop you there?

I am deeply frustrated. A number of conversations are carrying on while a member is addressing the Parliament. Can we please treat members who are speaking with the respect to which they should be entitled?

Craig Hoy

They do not want to hear about the division within their own ranks, Presiding Officer.

The Government must come to this Parliament, make its position clear and allow members to ask the questions that councils, carers, the third sector and those who rely on care and those who live in care now want answered.

The national care service plan should be ditched—it should not just be delayed.

The Presiding Officer

I call George Adam to respond on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau.

17:20

George Adam

Thank you, Presiding Officer.

Well, that was a very interesting 10 minutes—none of it anything whatsoever to do with reality. I will bring everybody else on the Opposition benches back into the real world with us. The Scottish Government remains absolutely committed to delivering plans for a national care service—[Interruption.] Change of this scale—

The Presiding Officer

Let us hear the minister.

George Adam

—is necessary to deliver the consistency and quality of care and support that the people of Scotland deserve, making Scotland a fairer and more equal place to live in.

Extending the stage 1 deadline—this is the reality of the situation—for the bill is necessary due to rightly complex and extensive scrutiny by several committees. Doing so will allow the lead committee more time to work on its stage 1 report while ensuring that the Government can comprehensively consider the report and its response to it.

The Health, Social Care and Sport Committee agreed with that rationale for the extension and is content with the revised deadline of Friday, 30 June 2023.

The Presiding Officer

The question is, that amendment S6M-08151.1, in the name of Paul O’Kane, which seeks to amend business motion S6M-08151, in the name of George Adam, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, on the stage 1 timetable for a bill, be agreed to. Are we agreed?

Members: No.

The Presiding Officer

There will be a division.

For

Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con)
Cameron, Donald (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab)
Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab)
Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD)
Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con)
Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab)
Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con)
Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con)
Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con)
Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con)
Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con)
Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab)
Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab)
Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD)
Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab)
Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con)
Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con)
White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con)
Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)

Against

The Presiding Officer

The result of the division is: For 55, Against 65, Abstentions 0.

Amendment disagreed to.

The Presiding Officer

The next question is, that business motion S6M-08151, in the name of George Adam, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, on the stage 1 timetable for a bill, be agreed to.

Motion agreed to,

That the Parliament agrees that consideration of the National Care Service (Scotland) Bill at stage 1 be completed by 30 June 2023.

The Presiding Officer

The next item of business is consideration of business motion S6M-08152, in the name of George Adam, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, on the stage 2 timetable for a bill. Any member who wishes to speak against the motion should press their request-to-speak button now. I call George Adam to move the motion.

17:23

George Adam

I am busy today, Presiding Officer.

I move,

That the Parliament agrees that consideration of the Moveable Transactions (Scotland) Bill at stage 2 be completed by 24 March 2023.

Motion agreed to.

International Women’s Day 2023

Parliamentary Bureau Motion

Meeting of the Parliament

Meeting date: Wednesday, March 8, 2023

Contents

Business Motion