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Chamber and committees

Finance Committee, 29 Feb 2000

Meeting date: Tuesday, February 29, 2000


Contents


European Union Funding Arrangements

The Convener:

Last week we discussed European Union funding arrangements but, as members may know, the European Committee did not consider whether there should be an inquiry, although it took evidence from the Commission. After that, I had a meeting with Hugh Henry, the convener of the European Committee, Bruce Crawford from the European Committee and Andrew Wilson from this committee. Sarah Davidson and Stephen Imrie, the respective clerks, were also present. We considered a number of issues relating to European funding, and following the meeting the two clerks produced a paper outlining some of the issues and options.

The European Committee does not meet again to take a decision until a week today, so we could not reach agreement on whether there should be a joint committee inquiry, individual investigations by the two committees or some sort of parallel investigation in which one committee would take the lead. In such a situation, it would be for the Parliamentary Bureau to decide which committee took the lead. That would, in any case, come under the heading of a joint investigation.

The issue raises a number of fundamentally finance-related matters, although they are tangentially European as well: for example, how the funds are operated, whether they are additional to the budget and what their net impact is. There was general agreement that there were sufficient grounds for an inquiry. At issue is how it should be conducted. I believe that there are issues that need to be investigated, although at last week's meeting of the European Committee I noted that, when Mr Meadows of the European Commission was asked whether Scotland had lost out, he was quite clear that it had not and that the Commission was not unhappy about the way in which the funds had been operated. However, we are talking about transparency and there are questions that might usefully be considered.

To sum up, we can decide what we as a committee want to do, but we are no further forward on the mode of the inquiry, because the European Committee has not yet pronounced on the issue. Would you like to add anything, Andrew?

Andrew Wilson:

With the greatest respect, Mr Meadows did not say what you have just reported. He was entirely unclear on Scotland's position and said that the Commission was happy with arrangements because it was concerned with state and project levels. He said that the question of whether the Scottish budget gains or loses was a matter for the internal workings of the Treasury and that we would never find the answer to it. That is for us to determine in the inquiry.

At the meeting with Hugh Henry and others, I was seeking to focus on whether funding is additional to the Scotland budget, which is clearly a matter of direct relevance to the Finance Committee. Where would you advise us to take the discussion, convener? Should the Finance Committee take the lead? I am unclear what specific ideas Hugh Henry thinks the European Committee should be considering, beyond the general policy questions of what structural funds do.

The Convener:

A number of issues have been identified that seem to fall more into the financial framework than the European one. My view was that if the two committees were to do something jointly—not necessarily a single inquiry—we should be the lead committee. I repeat, however, that that would not necessarily be our decision. The emphasis on the issues means that that would be the logical conclusion, although I am not sure that Hugh Henry would agree.

Mr Davidson:

I agree that this is a financial issue rather than anything else. I am never quite sure what the European Committee wants to do with it. I can understand its role in screening and examining documentation, but I feel that the matter belongs with this committee, if only to lay ghosts—I am not taking sides.

There is such public interest in the issue that we need to have an understanding of it. The way forward may be for the clerks to produce ideas for an inquiry, which we can consider next week if we do not have a heavy agenda.

The difficulty is that we will meet again before the European Committee meets, as it meets in the afternoon.

Mr Raffan:

I agree with David Davidson that a paper would be helpful. There is a problem with a joint committee inquiry. I can see why different committees might be involved in taking evidence at stage 1 of the legislative process, with one committee as lead committee, but straightforward inquiries should be done by one committee.

As Andrew Wilson said, this is a highly complex issue. Mr Meadows said that we would never find out the answers. We probably will not if two committees are involved in the process; it would be easier to have one.

We will come up against this issue time and again, particularly when we consider the financial aspects of an issue for which another committee has responsibility. For example, the Local Government Committee is considering local government finance, but sooner or later we will need to examine that.

Mr Macintosh:

Last week, we talked about the possibility of including European funding arrangements in our report on the Barnett formula. What is our thinking on that? It is a question of timing and when we get round to doing either or both of those reports. European funding is intrinsic to the Barnett formula, so it should perhaps be part of that report, but I do not want to delay the inquiry unnecessarily, as we have not yet agreed what we will do about Barnett.

Andrew Wilson:

We had a brief discussion on that point. The issue is seen as being distinct and discrete, although—you are correct—one report would inform the other. There is a desire for an inquiry on European funding, even though, much to my dismay, we do not yet have agreement on a formal inquiry into the Barnett question. My suggestion is that we push ahead on the European front and allow ourselves to be informed by that as to how we should examine further the Barnett question.

The Convener:

We are committed until the Easter break due to our present inquiry. The plan was to move into briefings on Barnett after that, but if we want to institute an inquiry into European funding, that would take precedence. David Davidson suggested that the clerks could give us a report next week, which would include timings. If the clerks are happy to do that, we would welcome such a report.

Rhoda Grant:

The two issues—European funding and the Barnett formula—are closely linked. Will we get a clear understanding of the issues if we consider them separately? The clerks should consider in the paper that they produce which inquiry would come first or whether they could be done together.

One of the suggestions is that we have a briefing on Barnett as part of an inquiry into European funding arrangements.

Mr Raffan:

I would like to go back to what you and Kenneth Macintosh said, convener—that time will become a major problem. We are going into the full budgeting process after Easter for the first time. We have not been through that process before, so we do not know how long stage 1 will take. We will send out a questionnaire to the Parliament's committees and await responses and we must process all that data by the end of June. We need to know how much time will be available for an inquiry and we need to know what our priorities will be.

I do not want to introduce something new, but I will—where might we have the most impact? We must examine local government finance before next year's local government finance settlement. We should try more to influence the Scottish Executive's direction than to examine European funding.

I am keen to maximise impact, but the newspapers have reported that the Local Government Committee will initiate an inquiry into local government finance.

I support what Rhoda Grant said. The Barnett formula and European funding are closely linked. If we were to examine European funding, it would be useful to have one or two joint briefing sessions so that we understand the subject.

The Convener:

That would be part of the inquiry. I hope that will we have a clear idea of how the European Committee is likely to approach the issue, but I think that the preference is that this committee should undertake the inquiry.

Members indicated agreement.

Andrew Wilson:

We should communicate with that committee to ensure that we relate what we do to it. This is a first for that committee as well and we want to make a good diplomatic move. I suggested a joint inquiry, but I am persuaded by some of the other arguments—especially those relating to logistics and having a committee of more than 20 people—that we should not. However, we must maintain a relationship with colleagues in the European Committee who understand European structural funding.

The matter is on the European Committee's agenda for next week. The clerks, the convener of that committee and I will liaise.

Meeting closed at 12:21.