Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee,

Meeting date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009

Official Report 208KB pdf

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Climate Change (Scotland) Bill

Item 3 is consideration of the committee's approach to stage 2 of the Climate Change (Scotland) Bill. The committee published its own report on sections 48 to 51 of the bill, which deal with energy matters, and made a number of recommendations, which were agreed unanimously, on how the bill should be amended at stage 2.

The Government lodged most of its stage 2 amendments to the bill last week. We will discuss what the committee wishes to do in the light of those amendments. We have an approach paper, page 3 of which mentions points on which the Government has not yet lodged amendments that we may wish to consider lodging. I propose that the committee lodge such amendments in my name.

I open the matter for discussion. Committee members should also have received yesterday a further response from the minister on the recommendations from this committee that were not covered in the lead committee's report.

I will start with promoting and improving energy efficiency. I have had some discussions on that with the Government, which is minded to accept amendments on the matter. It has been slow to lodge an amendment partly because of that and is happy to accept an amendment from elsewhere.

I have in front of me a draft of an amendment in my name, which would address the issue in section 48(2). I am happy for it to be lodged as a committee amendment in your name, convener, if you are so minded. The amendment would replace the existing wording, and concerns

"promoting energy efficiency; and … improving the energy efficiency of living accommodation, in Scotland."

That form of words would take us forward. Arguably, it is not the only thing that we need to do, but it would certainly address the issue in section 48(1).

Does the committee agree to lodge that as a committee amendment?

Members indicated agreement.

In that case, I ask Lewis Macdonald to forward the proposed amendment to the clerks.

I am happy to do that. In addition, there may be some merit in retitling section 48, although I have not discussed that with the Government. At the moment, the title is "Duty of Scottish Ministers to promote energy efficiency". We might want to lodge an amendment to extend it.

There is also an argument about repeal of section 179 of the Housing (Scotland) Act 2006, in schedule 2 to the bill. It might be interesting to lodge an amendment on that, if only to see how ministers respond.

A number of amendments are being suggested. Will the parts of the bill to which they refer be dealt with at this committee?

No, they will be dealt with at the Transport, Infrastructure and Climate Change Committee, but I would go to that committee to move any amendments on behalf of the Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee. It is open to any member to attend any committee meeting where stage 2 of a bill is being dealt with.

We are not sure when the amendments will be considered. The Transport, Infrastructure and Climate Change Committee has three meetings set aside for stage 2 of the bill; I suspect that the proposed amendments would be dealt with at the last of those. The Transport, Infrastructure and Climate Change Committee might have to go back to the Government to ask for an extension to stage 2 in order to deal with all the amendments. We will have to wait and see.

Is the committee content that we also lodge a probing amendment on repeal of provisions in the 2006 act?

Members indicated agreement.

Secondly, there is a proposed amendment to incorporate annual energy efficiency and renewable heat targets and reporting requirements in the relevant sections of the bill. Are members content to lodge such amendments?

Yes. I have taken some initiative in that direction, although I have not yet seen the final wording of what is proposed. I am perfectly happy to share that with members once I have discussed it with the Government, as Lewis Macdonald did. We could sharpen up the targets for renewable heat. At the moment, 1 per cent of heat comes from renewable sources and the target to get that to 11 per cent by 2020 has been set, but I am trying to address the road map to get us to the 11 per cent target.

Are members content for us to lodge an amendment to that effect?

Members indicated agreement.

The clerks can discuss the wording with Rob Gibson. I hope that we can reach agreement on that.

The next suggestion is that we lodge an amendment to ensure that regulations made under section 50(1), which will make provision for the matter that is mentioned in section 50(4), are subject to the affirmative procedure. The recommendation in our report was that all secondary legislation that will be associated with the bill should be subject to the affirmative procedure. The regulations under section 50(1) appear to be the only secondary legislation that would not be subject to the affirmative procedure. Are members content to lodge an amendment to that effect?

Has there been any explanation from the Government as to why the regulations will not, in the bill, be subject to the affirmative procedure? I have not seen one.

No. Perhaps we should lodge a probing amendment to get that explanation.

The minister made a commitment to provide draft regulations on the energy performance of non-domestic buildings before stage 2, but we have not seen them yet. He said that such regulations would require secondary legislation. The committee considered that those regulations should be extended to the domestic sector. The proposal is that we lodge an amendment on that basis.

It would be useful to have examples of different types of non-domestic buildings and their likely footprints—if a building can be said to have a footprint. There is a wide variety of buildings from industrial equipment and housing right through to supermarkets, which interest me most.

That is a fair point. Unfortunately, we are in a bit of a difficult position, because we do not yet know what the draft regulations will look like. The question is whether we wish to lodge an amendment on the basis of our recommendation that we include domestic buildings in the regulations.

I have had discussions with interested people, who have suggested an amendment to insert a new section that would apply to domestic buildings. In most essentials, that section would be the same as section 50 as it applies to non-domestic buildings, but with perhaps one or two additional points regarding enforcement and how it would apply in practice. Again, it may be that such an amendment would encourage ministers to make commitments that would meet the concerns that have been raised. It would be worth lodging such an amendment. If the committee decides to do so, I will be happy to share the wording of the suggested amendment.

Are members content to lodge such an amendment, as a committee amendment?

Members indicated agreement.

There are two final suggestions to consider. The first is an amendment to give the Scottish ministers enabling powers to provide for some form of local taxation rebate for investments in renewables. The proposal is not that they would have to introduce such a rebate, but that they would have the powers that would enable them to do so. The Government had argued that providing such a rebate would require primary legislation, so we need to give it that primary legislative power if they are to do so.

I know that the coalition of energy organisations and green organisations that was put together to support Sarah Boyack's proposed energy efficiency and micro-generation bill produced a good briefing for the stage 1 debate on the Climate Change (Scotland) Bill that itemised a number of areas in which they would like legislative action to be taken. Could the clerks take a look at that? I do not think committee amendments could be beyond what we have promised to do, but that itemised list of areas is interesting. Some suggestions are not appropriate for inclusion in the Climate Change (Scotland) Bill, such as the one about further action on permitted development rights, but it would be helpful to check that list of suggestions to see whether we have covered what we can. If we have not, individual committee members could lodge the necessary amendments.

I do not think that the clerks received a copy of that submission, which was sent only to members. Could you forward a copy to the clerks?

I am struggling to find mine, but I am sure that it can be found—perhaps the Scottish Parliament information centre has a copy. It was the official briefing by the round-table grouping.

I am sure that Sarah Boyack has a copy. If you could ask her to forward a copy to the clerks, that would be helpful.

Yes.

Obviously, the committee would be able to lodge amendments only in relation to the local taxation rebate.

That is the most prominent issue.

Do members agree with the suggested amendment?

Members indicated agreement.

The final suggestion concerns an amendment to place an obligation on ministers to produce a renewable heat plan rather than simply giving them the power to do so. They have indicated that they intend to do so, so such an amendment should not present them with any major problem.

Do members agree?

Members indicated agreement.

The clerks will draft amendments and consult members on their wording. The amendments will be lodged in my name, and members of the committee can sign them—I think up to four members of the committee can sign each one.

We have talked about the energy efficiency performance of existing domestic and non-domestic buildings and of building standards for new buildings. The remaining question, however, concerns extensions to existing buildings. Is there scope for an amendment that would introduce a section to deal with that?

I think that we could consider that as part of the energy inquiry. We did not cover that issue in our report, so it is outwith the scope of what we can lodge in an amendment. Of course, that does not stop anyone else from lodging an amendment to that effect.

We now move into private session.

Meeting continued in private until 12:28.