Official Report 127KB pdf
Item 3 is the committee's continued evidence taking at stage 1 of the Gaelic Language (Scotland) Bill. Members should have a briefing from the Scottish Parliament information centre and further submissions that the committee has received.
Tha mi toilichte an cothrom seo fhaighinn tighinn fa chomhair na comataidh às leth Chomunn na Gàidhlig gus fianais a thoirt mu dheidhinn a' bhile. Dh'ullaich sinn pàipear a tha a' mìneachadh suidheachadh Chomunn na Gàidhlig air a' bhile. Tha sinn a' cur fàilte air a' bhile a chionn 's gu bheil e a' toirt cothrom dhan chomataidh, dhuinn fhèin agus dhan Phàrlamaid deasbad a dhèanamh air inbhe thèarainte dhan Ghàidhlig. Tha sinn air a bhith a' strì airson inbhe thèarainte dhan Ghàidhlig airson iomadach bliadhna a-nis agus, mar sin, tha e math gu bheil sinn air tighinn chun na h-ìre seo far a bheil e gu bhith ga deasbad anns a' Phàrlamaid. Tha sinne a' toirt taic do phrionnsabal a' bhile. Gu ìre, tha am bile a' toirt inbhe thèarainte agus tha e a' comharrachadh co-ionannachd dhan Ghàidhlig aig an aon ìre ris a' Bheurla. Chan urrainn dhuinne ach taic a thoirt do sin.
Thank you, convener. I am happy to be here on behalf of Comunn na Gàidhlig to give evidence to the committee. We have already submitted a paper that explains how we feel about the Gaelic Language (Scotland) Bill. We welcome the bill and the opportunity that it gives the committee, the Parliament and Comunn na Gàidhlig to debate secure status for Gaelic. For many years we have striven to obtain secure status for Gaelic, so it is good that we have reached the stage of being able to debate that issue further in the Parliament. We support the principle of the bill; it will to some degree provide secure status for Gaelic and it recognises the need for Gaelic and English to have equal opportunities.
Mr Martin, thank you for your written submission and for your support for the principles of the bill. As you are aware, the legislative process of the Scottish Parliament is clear. This series of evidence-taking meetings leads to a stage 1 debate at which the Parliament will decide, with a recommendation from the committee, whether to accept the general principles of the bill, which is a phrase that you have used a couple of times and to which I will come back. The bill will then move to the process of detailed amendment at stage 2.
Tha sin ceart. Chan eil sinne a' faicinn càil idir an aghaidh prionnsabal a' bhile a chionn 's gu bheil am bile a' toirt inbhe thèarainte ceum air adhart. Anns an dara àite, tha e a' comharrachadh gum biodh a' Ghàidhlig agus a' Bheurla co-ionann ann an Alba.
That is right. We do not see anything that we disagree with in the bill's principles. We would like to see bòrd Gàidhlig na h-Alba included in the bill, which would give equality for Gaelic and English throughout the country. The more detailed parts of the process might involve bòrd Gàidhlig na h-Alba taking some of the ombudsman's role. We have to be clear that the bill will empower bòrd Gàidhlig na h-Alba so that it can fulfil its responsibilities, which were given to it by the minister in implementing the national plan for Gaelic. Its role must be clear and efficient.
That is helpful. As the Official Report will show in both languages, the opening remarks of your answer were that you agree with the general principles of the bill and that you are looking forward to comprehensive amendments at stage 2.
Tha mi a' gabhail ris na h-argamaidean làidir sin. Feumaidh sinn a bhith mothachail nach biodh bile Gàidhlig a bha a' toirt a-staigh Alba air fad a' ciallachadh gum biodh a h-uile àite ann an Alba comasach air seirbheisean a thoirt seachad anns a' chànan. Leugh mi an teisteanas a fhuair a' chomataidh bhon Ollamh MacFhionghuin agus bhon Ollamh Meek aig a' choinneimh an t-seachdain sa chaidh, far an deach ceistean gu math cudthromach a thogail a thaobh luchd-obrach ann an oifisean an Riaghaltais an Glaschu agus an Dùn Èideann. Chan eil dòigh ann air am b' urrainn dhuinn seirbheis dhen t-seòrsa sin a thoirt seachad. Feumar a bhith mothachail gum biodh an ìre aig am biodh taic a thoirt dhan Ghàidhlig eadar-dhealaichte anns na h-Eileanan an Iar agus àiteachan air a' Ghaidhealtachd ris an ìre a gheibheadh tu nuair a thig thu sìos gu àiteachan mar Ghlaschu agus Dùn Èideann.
I agree with Michael Russell's arguments, which are strong. We do not envisage a bill that does not include the whole of Scotland, because we feel that the whole of Scotland should provide such services. I read what Donald Meek and Kenneth MacKinnon said last week, and members asked important questions about employees in the Executive's offices in Glasgow and Edinburgh. There is no way that we could assume that such services could currently be provided and we must recognise that, at the moment, the level of support that we can give will be different in the Highlands and Islands to what can be given in the Lowlands.
You have accepted the resource problems that I mentioned—I want to take that one step further. Is there another way in which to amend the bill so that it would not state simply that the bill must apply to all Scotland on day one? A programme of implementation could be inserted in the bill. For example, on royal assent or six months after, the bill could come into operation in the Highlands and Islands and two years after royal assent, it could come into operation in other parts of Scotland. Such implementation could be stopped only if an appropriate motion was lodged and agreed to in Parliament. Your argument that the Executive would not take that action would be vitiated because you would have a guarantee that implementation would take place unless the Parliament voted against it; one could not gainsay the elected Parliament if it chose to do that. I am looking for ways to combine the resource difficulty that you accept exists, with a practical plan to introduce the bill.
Tha sin ceart. Tha mi ag aontachadh gu mòr ri sin, ach an àite achd airson am feumar a dhol air ais chun na Pàrlamaid an dèidh sia mìosan no an dèidh bliadhna, lùiginn-sa gum biodh e cus na bu shìmplidhe—
I agree with that. Rather than an act to which Parliament would have to return after six months or a year—
Parliament would not have to do so in the circumstances that I outlined.
An rud as sìmplidhe a ghabhas dèanamh agus an rud a dh'aontaicheas a' Phàrlamaid ris, is e sin an dòigh air adhart. Bha mise a' smaoineachadh gum bu dòcha gun deigheadh cumhachd a thoirt do bhòrd Gàidhlig na h-Alba plana leasachaidh na Gàidhlig a chur an sàs air feadh Alba mar a bhiodh e comasach dhan bhòrd sin a dhèanamh. Feumaidh sinn a bhith mothachail nach urrainn am bòrd obair a dhèanamh mura faigh iad airgead bhon Riaghaltas airson nam prìomhachasan sin a chur an sàs. Aig deireadh an latha, tha grèim ann an dòigh aig an Riaghaltas air dè an t-ionmhas a tha a' dol chun na Gàidhlig a chionn 's gur e an Riaghaltas a tha ag aontachadh dè an suim airgid a tha a' dol an aghaidh obair a' bhùird.
We will agree with the simplest route. We feel that if bòrd Gàidhlig na h-Alba is to be given the power to implement the national plan for Gaelic throughout Scotland, we must recognise that bòrd Gàidhlig na h-Alba cannot work unless it is financed by the Executive to the extent that it can fulfil its aims. The Executive would, in a way, have control over the finances that are given to Gaelic. The Executive will agree what money will be set aside for bòrd Gàidhlig na h-Alba.
What is your view of the financial implications of the bill as drafted?
Chì mi gu bheil suimeannan air a thoirt seachad ann am meòrachan ionmhasail a' bhile. Tha na suimeannan sin a' comharrachadh a-mach gum bi mu £3,000 a' tuiteam air gach buidheann airson planaichean a leasachadh agus tha mi a' creidsinn gu bheil sin ceart. Chan urrainnear rud dhen t-seòrsa sin a dhèanamh gun airgead air choreigin, agus is e sin suim gu math beag an lùib nam buidhnean. Chan eil fhios agam dè a chosgadh e a h-uile càil a chur an sàs, ach is e aonan de na buannachdan dhen mholadh againn airson bile sìmplidh a thugadh cumhachd do bhòrd na Gàidhlig, gur ann air bòrd na Gàidhlig a bhiodh an t-uallach aig deireadh an latha gu bhith a' dèanamh cinnteach gun robh airgead ga chur ma choinneimh nan leasachaidhean a bhiodh a' tighinn bhon bhile. Bhiodh an t-uallach a' tuiteam air a' bhòrd fhèin.
I see that £3,000 will be set aside for each organisation to implement the bill, which is fair and right, although I do not know how much it will cost to implement the entire bill. One of the plus sides of a simple bill that would give power to bòrd Gàidhlig na h-Alba is that the board would have responsibility for ensuring that money was set aside for each development around the bill.
You spoke earlier about the financial implications and the difficulty of resourcing the programme, but the amount of money involved seems to be very small. Are we in fact asking you to sign a blank cheque?
Chan eil. Ged is e àm na Nollaige a tha ann, tha mi reusanta agus tha fhios agam nach urrainn dhomh seic bhàn fhaighinn bhuaibh. Cha bhiodh mòran airgid a' tuiteam air an Riaghaltas anns a' chiad àite airson bile goirid, sìmplidh mar a tha sinn a' moladh. Bhiodh e an uair sin an urra ri bòrd na Gàidhlig, aig am biodh ùghdarras agus uallach am prògram a chur an sàs, a dhol chun an Riaghaltais—dìreach mar a dh'fheumas am bòrd a dhèanamh co-dhiù—agus airgead a bharrachd fhaighinn airson nan leasachaidhean a tha iad airson a chur air adhart a chur an cèill.
No, that is not true. Although it is Christmas time, I am very reasonable and could not demand a blank cheque from the committee. The Executive would not need to spend very much money on the simple bill that we recommend, but it would be the responsibility of bòrd Gàidhlig na h-Alba to implement the programme. The board would have to go to the Executive—as it would have to do in any case—to ask for more finances for developments that it wanted to implement.
You should not necessarily think that I am against the bill. I am only exploring the situation. If, instead of the three provisions that you suggest might do, in what would be a hugely amended bill, the bill contained only one provision that said simply that Gaelic was an official language of Scotland, would that be of any use?
Bhiodh e feumail, ach cha bhiodh e a' dol ach letheach slighe. Feumaidh sinn a bhith soilleir nach e a-mhàin gu bheil Gàidhlig na cànan nàiseanta no na cànan oifigeil ann an Alba, ach feumar leantainn le sin agus cumhachd a thoirt do bhuidheann air choreigin airson dèanamh cinnteach gu bheil na briathran sin gan cur an cèill. Mura bi neart laghail agus cumhachd aig bòrd na Gàidhlig, tha uallach ormsa nach biodh am bòrd càil na b' fheàrr na tha Comunn na Gàidhlig air a bhith thairis air na bliadhnaichean a chaidh seachad. Is e an duilgheadas a tha air a bhith aig Comunn na Gàidhlig nach eil cumhachd no fiaclan againn airson nan leasachaidhean a tha sinn airson fhaicinn a chur an sàs.
That would be useful, but it would go only halfway towards the goal. We must be clear that Gaelic is not only an official language in Scotland, but that it must be developed. An organisation must be given power to implement the bill. I would be worried if legal power for secure status were not given to bòrd Gàidhlig na h-Alba so that it was no more effective than Comunn na Gàidhlig has been. Comunn na Gàidhlig's problem has been that it has not had the power. It has not had the teeth to make the developments that we wanted.
The second string to your proposal for the bill is that Gaelic should be equal with English. What would that mean?
Chan eil sin a' ciallachadh idir gum feumadh daoine a tha a' reic ann am bùithtean air Sràid a' Phrionnsa an Dùn Èideann a bhith comasach anns a' Ghàidhlig no gum feumadh a h-uile ball Pàrlamaid a bhith comasach anns a' Ghàidhlig. Anns a' chiad àite, bhiodh am moladh sin a' toirt misneachd le bhith a' toirt inbhe shònraichte dhan chànan anns an aon dòigh 's a tha a' Chuimris a' faighinn anns a' Chuimrigh. Is e sin rud cudthromach agus tha e uabhasach fhèin deatamach ann a bhith a' gluasad air adhart le leasachaidhean agus adhartas anns a' chànan.
That would not mean that staff in shops in Princes Street or every MSP would have to speak Gaelic. It would provide encouragement and some status, which the Welsh language has in Wales. That is important, and crucial to developing Gaelic.
Members have no further questions, so I thank the witness for his evidence. I am sure that we will be in touch in due course.
Your best is always good enough.
I thank the witnesses for attending. We would be grateful if you made introductory comments before we ask questions.
I thank the committee for inviting Comhairle nan Eilean Siar to give evidence. I will make three short points to outline the comhairle's position. The comhairle supports in principle a Gaelic language act, as it would mean formal recognition by the Scottish Parliament that Gaelic is the major indigenous language of Scotland and deserves formal legal status.
Thank you for your opening remarks and your written submission, which was extremely helpful, especially the statement that the Western Isles Council supports the concept that
It has worked extremely well. The policies of Gaelic education and Gaelic-medium education are flagships of the comhairle. The comhairle also has officers and members who are available at all times to meet members of the public and speak to them in Gaelic.
The council does more than that though. The committee took evidence in the council's chamber in Stornoway, and the bill is founded partly on some of the statements and commitments that the council has made over the years. An important element of a Gaelic language plan is that it ensures that Gaelic can be used in all areas of life, including domestic, entertainment and official situations. Many who think and write about such matters feel that that is extremely important. Do you agree?
Yes. The comhairle is bilingual, and members may decide whether to speak in Gaelic or English. Translation facilities are available at all meetings. The comhairle has given outside organisations, such as public bodies and private companies, a great deal of encouragement to use Gaelic, display their names in Gaelic and to place Gaelic at the forefront of everything that they do. That strategy has been successful, but, of course, more could always be done.
That is also important and interesting. Again, those who study and think about such matters see a direct link between the development and health of a language and the economic progress of those people who speak it. The revival of the Faroese language is given as an example. It must be part of the council's policy to make that link and to ensure that this is not an either or situation and that economic development and linguistic health always go hand in hand.
I could not agree more. Unfortunately, the islands' economy has not being doing well in the past five to six years, which means that they are losing their Gaelic population at both ends: they lose their elderly citizens for the inevitable reasons and they lose their young people to further or higher education or to employment in areas such as Edinburgh and other cities in Scotland, the United Kingdom or the wider world. Those people are lost to the area's economy, and the young people who would have had children and brought them up on the islands as Gaelic speakers are no longer there. Therefore, apart from the need to address the difficulties of the language, we must also address the difficulties of the economy and find a way to keep economically active young people on the islands to generate a healthy, balanced population of Gaelic speakers.
You heard the points that I made to Donald Martin about the geographical limitations of the bill. There is a debate to be had on that, and I might vote for an amendment to change that provision. Your submission refers to the role of bòrd na Gàidhlig. The bill was drafted almost in parallel to the work that bòrd na Gàidhlig has done.
Where we live, we see the imperative about us day by day. As I said before, the number of speakers is declining day by day and the population is declining. There is no time to lose.
If the bill were to be amended significantly at stage 2, which seems to be everybody's view—including mine, I must say—would you be happy for the general principles of the bill to be agreed, so that it could proceed to stage 2 to be so amended so that the Parliament could act upon it?
We would certainly like the bill to make progress and would like it to be amended, as you suggest.
You have mentioned the need for large public bodies to have a Gaelic language plan. From your experience, what might that mean for a body such as the National Galleries of Scotland or the University of Edinburgh?
A Gaelic language plan might mean several things for such bodies. First, it might mean that, as in the Parliament, the signs throughout the buildings would be bilingual. That would be a good start. It might also mean that the signs on the front of the buildings would be bilingual, so that Gaelic is acknowledged.
You also said that, were the bill to be amended to allow it to take effect throughout Scotland without regional disparity, different areas would take up at a natural pace what the bill bestows. Is there not a difficulty, which explains the regional basis of the bill, whereby someone may live in a local authority area in which provision is not available that is available in a neighbouring local authority area and, because the requirement to make that provision is in statute, that person can insist—indeed, they can go to court to insist—that it be provided? Would that difficulty not prevent natural development? People could challenge a local authority in court and force a pace that public bodies might have difficulty in meeting, perhaps because of finding a lack of Gaelic speakers to employ.
If there were a legal requirement throughout Scotland, that could be the ultimate result. I hope that it would not happen that way, but that the authorities and organisations would see it as being to their advantage to introduce Gaelic policies at different levels within their organisation, local authority or wherever. I hope that people would never have to resort to those measures to get recognition for Gaelic in any area of Scotland.
There are no further questions. I thank you very much for giving evidence. We will come back to you if there are any other queries.