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Chamber and committees

Justice 1 Committee, 30 Jan 2001

Meeting date: Tuesday, January 30, 2001


Contents


Petitions

The Convener:

We now move to item 7 on the agenda.

A note by the clerk on the first petition, which is petition PE89 from Eileen McBride, was circulated with members' papers. We suggest that we have probably gone as far as we need to on the petition, as the Minister for Justice has replied to the various points that we raised with him. We also suggest that we might monitor the implementation of part V of the Police Act 1997, which was of particular concern to the petitioner, as and when required. If appropriate, we will revisit the issue if a problem arises. Are members happy with that course of action?

Phil Gallie:

I am not happy with Jim Wallace's response. Someone who submits an application to an employer has no details about the criminal record certificate that might be sent to the employer unbeknown to the applicant—the minister explained that such a situation might arise due to the likely volume of applications. I would have thought that a system could be implemented whereby an individual was informed if a certificate was sent. The individual could then choose either to withdraw his application or to support it with a statement indicating that he queried the detail of the certificate.

Are you talking about something akin to an appeals mechanism, which the petitioner specifically asked about?

Phil Gallie:

It is wrong that a bad report, based on unsubstantiated information, should be made up about an individual, particularly if it is passed on to other people without the individual knowing its content.

I accept the minister's comments about the delay that would be caused, but any individual caught up in the process would far prefer a delayed response to a quick one that worked to his or her disadvantage.

The Convener:

The minister obviously believes that the delay would disadvantage a lot of people who would not be adversely affected by the certificates. We have put the petitioner's points to the minister on more than one occasion and we have seen his response. Do you wish to suggest further action in addition to what is in the clerk's note?

Phil Gallie:

It would be easy for the minister—or whoever the application for a certificate is made to—to inform the individual concerned of the response that is being sent about him to whoever is inquiring about his employment prospects. It would be administratively acceptable and reasonable to do something like that.

The Convener:

I suggest that I take the petition away to examine the points that Phil Gallie has made and to consider whether we can do anything further. I will bring it back to the committee next week with either a proposal for different action or the suggestion that we take the action proposed in the note from the clerk.

Thank you, convener.

The Convener:

The second petition is PE265 from Mr George McAulay on behalf of the UK Men's Movement. This morning, some additional information—a letter from the Scottish Executive and an e-mail in response to that letter—was circulated to members. If members have not received the information, copies are available. Do members wish to comment on the petition?

Phil Gallie:

The minister seems to have missed the petitioner's point about anonymity. I accept that, in most circumstances, the information that an individual has been charged with an offence is made public—that may be quite right. However, cases of rape or sexual offences are different, because the victim's identity is held back, particularly if the victim is a child. That does not happen in other criminal cases. Irrespective of whether a man or a woman is charged with rape or another sexual offence, there is justification for saying that the identity of the person charged should not be declared until he or she is found guilty.

The crimes of rape or sexual abuse of children are horrendous. Once someone's character is stained with such a charge, the dirt tends to stick even if the individual is later cleared. A few years ago, a lady in Ayr was charged with making false allegations of rape. The court found her guilty and sentenced her to community service, but that was too late for the accused. The pressures on him led him to take his life.

We all get hot and bothered about rape when we discuss it in the chamber—justifiably so, as it is an horrendous crime—but we must consider both sides of the situation. It would be worth writing to the Minister for Justice to make the point that, as far as anonymity is concerned, those crimes are different. A positive view should be taken of the petition and legislation should, if necessary, be considered.

Gordon Jackson:

I have sat through more rape trials than I care to think about. I am not unsympathetic to Phil Gallie's comments. I accept that being accused of rape, indecency towards one's children or any other sexual offence is different from being accused of other crimes. There is a question of degree. Mud sticks. If one were accused of theft but then acquitted, the mud would still stick. However, I accept that being accused of a sexual offence is different.

I have sat through cases where I thought that it was awfully unfair that someone's name was blackened in their community. Phil Gallie gave the example of the case in Ayr and it is foolish to pretend that such cases do not exist. However, I do not know how workable it is to preserve the anonymity of the accused in such cases, as one would be unable to mention the name of the accused until they were found guilty. Some people have done horrendous things and, quite properly, are convicted. The public interest might not be served if the press reported those cases by blanking out names day after day. It is difficult to strike the balance—I am wittering because I genuinely do not know the answer. I am not unsympathetic, but I am not sure that the proposal is workable.

For the sake of completeness, let me say that I do not think that the other three points mentioned in the petition take us anywhere. Making a false allegation of rape could be made a specific crime, but it is already the serious crime of seeking to pervert the course of justice. I am not sure how one would get accurate information for the petitioner's proposals at points 3 and 4. However, anonymity is a live issue and I see no harm in considering it further. I do not think that it is a silly point.

The Public Petitions Committee took that position. It did not take points 2, 3 and 4 any further but wrote to the minister on the first point. The minister's reply is attached to the clerk's note.

Euan Robson:

I might not have picked up Phil Gallie correctly. Was he saying that his concern is that if you identify the accused you might consequently identify the victim, or is his concern restricted to the disclosure of the identity of the accused? There may be circumstances where, if you identify the accused, there are implications for the victim. In that much more narrow sense, I would have some sympathy with Phil Gallie's concerns.

It is quite unusual for that to happen, although I am not saying that it never happens.

Maureen Macmillan:

Part of the problem is the salacious interest of the press in such cases. Mud sticks when somebody's name is blazoned across the tabloids. That does not happen when somebody local is charged with stealing something from Woolworth's. Mud may stick a bit in a small community, but we are talking about somebody having their life destroyed. Is there a case for restrictions on reporting such cases?

Michael Matheson:

I raised the unusual situation that Euan Robson picked up on—which arose in a constituency case in Falkirk—when I questioned representatives from the Crown Office. The accused had been named and, as a result, people were able to identify the victim. Although the victim was not named, the local paper picked up on the case and it quickly became public knowledge. The attitude of the accused and their family towards the victim and their family changed entirely as soon as the case hit the news. The victim's family was victimised because the accused's family saw their son as having had his name blackened.

I agree with Gordon Jackson that there is an issue here, especially in relation to point 1. My concern is that we are missing other complicating factors. I am inclined to think that the committee should consider writing to organisations that work with rape victims to ask whether we should consider the first point only. With the other three points, it becomes too complex an idea—the main organisations would say right away that they were against it—but we could find out whether the first point would have wider implications. The committee might then be better informed about whether to ask the minister to consider the matter in more detail than he has considered it to date.

We have written to the minister. There is no point in writing to him again, because we will get the same reply.

There is a victim-accused axis here. In certain circumstances, it may be possible to provide protection to the victim and their family by not providing the name of the accused.

The Convener:

I undertake to consult the clerks and to draw up a list of organisations to which we can write. Members can suggest other people to whom we might write. Once we get the responses we can consider where to take it from there. Is that okay?

Members indicated agreement.

I am happy with that, but I point out to Gordon Jackson the difficulty in identifying false charges of rape, which do happen, as the instance in Ayr demonstrated. However, we are concentrating on the right issues, so I am happy.

Phil Gallie also mentioned cases of abuse against children. We might put that in the melting pot as well.

The final item is to be taken in private, so I will filibuster for a minute while the public leave the room.

Meeting continued in private until 16:08.