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Chamber and committees

Procedures Committee, 29 Jan 2002

Meeting date: Tuesday, January 29, 2002


Contents


Committees (Substitution)

The Convener:

We proceed to item 2, on substitution on committees of the Parliament, which we discussed at our most recent meeting. A couple of matters still have to be resolved; I hope that we will do so today.

Alison Coull has joined us for this item. I do not know whether you want to say anything at this point, but if you do, the floor is all yours.

Alison Coull (Scottish Parliament Directorate of Legal Services):

All I want to say is that the draft standing order amendments are intended to reflect the various decisions that the committee made on 18 December. The standing orders are fairly short, although they have been slightly tricky to draft. I am happy to go through them and explain each amendment, or I can just take questions.

The Convener:

We will address the two issues that are identified in the report and then allow members to raise points on the specific changes to the standing orders as they arise.

The report advises members that two issues require to be concluded. The first is whether substitution should be permitted for part of a meeting, or if we are out for the meeting, we are out and our substitute is there instead.

The second issue is whether the members of the single-member parties, who may or may not have sufficient numbers to constitute parties for Parliamentary Bureau purposes, should be allowed to substitute for each other. Members will be aware from the report that two of the three of those members in the Parliament have indicated that they do not want to do that.

The first item is on whether we would agree to substitution for part of a meeting, or whether the substitute, having been appointed, is in charge when the member cannot attend.

Mr Paterson:

I take the view that it would be too disruptive for members to ship in and out of a part-meeting. In fact, having participated in such meetings myself, I think that it would be very unhelpful. Although I was fairly well briefed—or thought that I was—I found that coming back into a meeting, having missed part of it to attend another meeting, meant that I had to work a bit harder to pick up the threads again. It would be unfair on the members involved, but it would also be unfair on the committees themselves if we allowed members to attend only part of a meeting.

The Convener:

That seems to be the general view, to judge from the number of members nodding their heads. I recall that, when the matter first arose, that question was asked to take account of the standpoint of the smaller political parties, which have only one spokesman. Perhaps, given the cross-cutting nature of the committee briefs, it might be relevant for other spokesmen to participate in debates. Substitution would be one way of doing that. I think that Donald Gorrie called it a job-share approach when we discussed it previously. The other solution would be simply to encourage conveners to recognise the problems that we have identified and allow additional members of the Parliament to attend committees and take part in relevant debates on subjects that fall within their briefs. If conveners were doing that, the problem would resolve itself to all practical intents and purposes.

Do members agree that we should not have part-substitutes?

Members indicated agreement.

The second issue is the question whether the single-member parties should be allowed to substitute for one another.

Mr Paterson:

I raised that point last week, but it is quite clear from the people who it is thought might benefit from substitution between parties that they do not believe that that would benefit individual members. I intend to drop my support for such a move. We might as well take the word of the people who know how it would affect them. I have not thought too much about how it would affect me if I were an individual member, but they certainly have.

Does that represent the general view of committee members?

Members indicated agreement.

The Convener:

We now come to the specific changes to the standing orders, which Alison Coull has generously agreed to take us through point by point. We will identify whether members have any questions on the various rule changes. Donald Gorrie usually raises such matters, but he has not given me notice that he is concerned about anything.

Susan Deacon:

I have a specific question about the intent of the changes. We have talked about substitution on a very short-term basis, but there will be occasions when a longer-term substitution might be necessary. I am thinking particularly about cases of long-term sickness, and I should declare an interest, as I am also thinking about maternity leave. Do the changes that are being put in place provide fully for such circumstances? Would there effectively be a substitution for that period, assuming that all the parties concerned agreed to it?

Alison Coull:

The rule changes as drafted would do nothing to prevent a long-term substitution. The mechanism for dealing with notification is being dealt with administratively. There is nothing in the draft that would prevent that.

Fiona Hyslop:

I understand that the Parliamentary Bureau would propose a named substitute to the Parliament. If a long-term substitution was required, and if the named substitute was not necessarily suitable for a longer period, all parties would understand that one of the parties might want to make a change in the substitution to ensure that duties could be carried out over a longer period. I do not see any difficulty with that.

There are two points that I would like to raise. First, I would like clarification on the rule that a substitute could not take on the role of convener or deputy convener.

Secondly, the notification for substitution is not included in the paper. That point arose in our previous discussions. What is the time scale for substitutions? The standing orders might not have to include notification for substitution, but it would be helpful if the conveners and business managers in particular understood what is acceptable and what is the form for that.

Alison Coull:

On the first point, the position of conveners and deputy conveners is dealt with in the draft standing orders. The intention is that the committee substitute attends in place of the convener or deputy convener but, in those circumstances, they have only the functions of an ordinary committee member. That is dealt with in new rule 12.2A.3. Where the convener is regarded as being unavailable, the deputy convener would take over.

The second point about time scales should be included in the report. As Fiona Hyslop said, the standing orders do not contain anything about that. The committee took the view that, depending on the circumstances, a variety of time scales for notification might be acceptable.

Is it appropriate for the standing orders to deal with notification for substitution, or would it be better for that to be regulated by practice agreed outwith the standing orders?

Alison Coull:

It is not necessary for notification for substitution to be included in the standing orders. It can be dealt with perfectly well as an administrative matter.

As there are no further questions or comments, I invite members to agree the proposed new standing orders. Are we agreed?

Members indicated agreement.

I thank members and also Alison Coull.

Meeting closed at 12:21.