Official Report 169KB pdf
National Assistance (Assessment of Resources) Amendment (Scotland) Regulations 2008 (SSI 2008/13)<br />National Assistance (Sums for Personal Requirements) (Scotland) Regulations 2008 (SSI 2008/14)
Good morning. I welcome everyone to the sixth meeting of the Health and Sport Committee in 2008. I remind all members to switch off their mobile phones.
What is the process in Scotland for upgrading the personal allowances element? There is a devolved power in Scotland and we have the opportunity to take a different view. I presume that the recommended uplift is just that—a recommendation that has been made by the "Charging for Residential Accommodation Guide" stakeholder group in England and accepted by the United Kingdom Government. First, is that the case? Secondly, what process of independent assessment have you carried out in relation to the needs of people in Scotland?
The stakeholder group that has been examining the whole of the charging system has not yet reported on its findings. The uprate that is proposed for the coming year is an inflationary uplift similar to the uplifts that have been made in previous years. It is based on a Department for Work and Pensions assessment of personal expenses needs that has been uprated over recent years.
Are we represented on that group or have we submitted evidence to it? If so, what is that evidence based on? Has any work been done on the particular needs that may pertain in Scotland?
We sit on the group as observers rather than as members. Although we have submitted information and advice on wider charging issues that are relevant specifically to Scotland, we have not submitted any separate advice on the personal expenses allowance. No specific analysis has been undertaken of the circumstances of the personal expenses allowance in Scotland, but we are aware that Age Concern England and Help the Aged, which are represented on the group, have made recommendations on the issue. That will be reflected in the group's final report.
Can you give us a date for the publication of that report? Do you have any idea when the group will conclude?
It will be sometime in the next two to three months.
You have mentioned two organisations that sit on the stakeholder group. What are the others?
I have mentioned Help the Aged and Age Concern. There is also a representative from an organisation for residents of care homes and their relatives, and there are representatives from English local authorities and from the Department of Health. As I say, representatives from Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland also sit on the group as observers.
That was very helpful, and was very much along our lines of questioning. I want to ask about two things. I had been thinking that we needed to review the situation, but it is quite obvious that that is being done by the stakeholder group. Should the stakeholder group recommend in two to three months' time that the proposed personal expenses allowance of £21.15 per week needs to be uplifted, what would the process be? Would you then recommend a change to the provisions of the statutory instrument?
The stakeholder group is not just considering the personal expenses allowance; it is looking at the residential care charging rules much more widely. We expect that further consultation will be undertaken in England with a wider set of stakeholders, taking forward the recommendations of the stakeholder group. We will consider the circumstances in Scotland and engage with relevant organisations, including Age Concern Scotland, and we will work out what the best, separate approach is for Scotland.
That is helpful. On a procedural point, once we have passed the regulations today, how flexible are things? Could we return to the matter in six months' or a year's time, following the response of the stakeholder group?
I would like some clarification on the stakeholder group. You mentioned that you have observer status on it. Is there a similar stakeholder group in Scotland, of which you are a full member?
No, there is not, but the care charging rules are very similar in England, Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland, because they operate in a way that partly links up with the benefits system. That is why it was decided that it would not be appropriate to have a separate stakeholder group in Scotland. With respect to any recommendations that come out of the group, we still have our own separate regulations and guidance, which we will draw on when we think about how to progress separately in Scotland. To reiterate, there is not a separate stakeholder group in Scotland because of the close links between the four countries in the UK.
Am I correct in saying that Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland are all observers on the stakeholder group?
Yes.
I presume that the Department of Health is a member of the stakeholder group.
The Department of Health has led the stakeholder group. The recommendations from the stakeholder group will be directly reported to that department's ministers.
The department is a member of the stakeholder group, then.
It is the secretariat.
Right—it is the secretariat; it is a member. Why do you have only observer status on the group?
The group is examining the care charging rules in England. We have separate care charging rules here. All that we are doing is drawing on the experience and discussions of the stakeholder group; we will have our own discussions with our own stakeholders.
You will have your discussions afterwards.
Yes.
I am still a bit confused about the idea of observer status and the fact that the Department of Health has member status on the stakeholder group while also providing its secretariat. Why would you not have a similar stakeholder group in Scotland, given that we have our own charging regulations?
There are consultations on care charging and any changes to the care charging regulations. There was a recognition that the care charging rules are extremely complicated. The Department of Health initiated a review of the rules in England. Rather than setting up a separate structure to review the rules in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, we have sat on the stakeholder group with observer status, given the clear overlap between the different structures. We will then draw on the group's conclusions and have a dialogue with our own stakeholders.
Is the stakeholder group time limited?
The stakeholder group is time limited to the extent that it has been operating for 18 months now and, when it comes to its conclusions and makes recommendations, it will come to an end.
That was helpful.
I have just checked my arithmetic with the estimable Ross Finnie. The Executive note says that
A week.
Ah! I knew I was no good at arithmetic.
You did not consult widely enough.
I did not. I should have asked a supplementary of Ross Finnie.
I answered the question that I was asked.
You are blameless. I should have asked a supplementary or put the question with more clarity. So the figures in the paper are right. Is 29,400 about right for the number of care home residents?
That is the number of care home residents who are—
Eligible. I am watching my words now. That was my first bloomer of the day; I am sure that there will be others.
I think that you said that the stakeholder group has been meeting for about 18 months.
Yes.
What has been the frequency of those meetings?
The stakeholder group has met relatively infrequently. It had its first meeting in August 2006, met again in December 2006 and June 2007, and is looking to have a further meeting to conclude its consideration.
So it has not met since last June.
That is right.
What consideration have you given with your own stakeholder group to the possibility of Scotland setting its own rate? Why has that idea not been progressed?
Along with others from Northern Ireland and Wales as observers on the stakeholder group, we have an input into the consideration of the residential care charging rules. When the stakeholder group makes its recommendations, Department of Health officials will put them to their ministers and we will consult the Scottish ministers. We will also consult a wide group of stakeholders in Scotland to decide what needs to be done as far as Scottish interests are concerned.
By the time the stakeholder group comes to a conclusion, almost a year will have elapsed since it last met last June. Obviously, further deliberations will then have to be had. In the meantime, pensioners in care homes will have had only the inflationary increase. Given the time that the Government—whether at UK or Scottish level—is taking on all of this, pensioners will get little benefit from the review. The message from care home residents is that the Government is not treating the situation with urgency. When you attend the meeting in London, will you address that issue? Furthermore, will you discuss it with Scottish ministers? People in the community have told me of the urgency of the situation. It is unfair for care home residents to be left in this way.
Part of the reason for awaiting the outcome of the stakeholder group and part of the advantage in being involved in the process is that issues such as the personal expenses allowance are being considered within the wider context of the entire charging rules. Clearly, in considering the adjustment of any one element of the charging rules, it is important to assess the impact that that would have on the other elements. It is also important to assess the alternatives that could be delivered.
Given that the allowance has an interchange involving pension receipt, adjustments made under the regulations to what the individual retains, in this case for personal expenditure, are predicated on a pension payment that I assume is operated through the DWP. We have the power to make separate regulations, but if the scheme is effectively run on a national basis through the DWP—that is the big "if"—how in Scotland do we have the power to change the amount?
The regulations cover only the care charging rules and the amount that a local authority will charge someone or ask them to contribute towards to the cost of their care in a residential home when that is funded by the local authority. In calculating how much someone contributes, the local authority will take account of their pension and any income that they receive from other sources, and it will ensure that any capital that the person has above the capital limits covered in the assessment of resources regulations is left to them. It will also ensure that the person is left with the allowance for personal expenses. It is an element not of the pension system but of the local authority care charging rules.
So who bears the cost?
The local authority bears the cost, although in practical terms the regulations are cost neutral for local authorities because of the contributions that people make from their other income. As people have more income, the local authority receives more money through charging and can afford to give people more money in the personal expenses allowance. So it is the local authority that pays the money, but the regulations are cost neutral in terms of the inflationary uplift.
The issues are complex—and I have already shown the difficulty that I have with arithmetic. Would it assist the committee to have a paper from the Scottish Parliament information centre to explain all the interactions involved, rather than trying to tease them out in questions? It is becoming a tangle for me. Would that be useful for the committee?
Yes, it would. For example, on the previous question, Age Concern is concerned about the people at the lowest income levels, who are in effect those on state pension. It is difficult to see where the private sector comes into that.
I suggest that we show the Official Report of this question session to SPICe so that it can see the issues that we have raised and assist us.
Will the officials clarify exactly how many observers from the Scottish Government there are at stakeholder group meetings and their rank or status in the Government? What does observer status mean? Does it mean literally that they observe and do not take any part in the meeting, or can they take part but not vote? What is the difference between an observer and a member of the group?
I am a Scottish Government observer on the group, and I am a policy officer in the community care division of the primary and community care directorate. When I go to the meetings of the stakeholder group, I actively participate in the meetings. We discuss all different aspects of the care charging rules. However, when the stakeholder group reaches its final conclusions, I will not be party to or bound by its recommendations because I am an official of the Scottish Government. The stakeholder group will make recommendations to the Department of Health ministers, and the other observers from Northern Ireland and Wales and I will then report back to our respective ministers.
What sort of input from Scotland is there in those meetings? When an item comes up, do you just deal with things as you see fit?
The residential care charging rules have been fairly extensively considered. The stakeholder group's purpose is to consider the guidance, which has existed for many years. We are conducting a root-and-branch review of all the different aspects of that guidance. My colleagues from Wales, Northern Ireland and England and I—from a Scottish Government perspective—have been able to inform the stakeholder group about the issues that need clarification. The stakeholder group will have its own thoughts on how the guidance should be changed. One issue that it has considered is the personal expenses allowance. That consideration has been based on information that has been provided, particularly by Age Concern England and Help the Aged in England.
So there is little difference between being an observer and being a member of the group.
The point is that an observer is not bound by the report. That is a serious point.
I think that the Scottish Parliament information centre could deal with this question. I want to find out about the things that are not covered by the allowance which should be provided to people in homes. I would like to have an idea of what the allowance should cover and what should be provided to people, so that we have a clear idea as to whether the approach that has been taken is practical.
That seems to be a very practical idea.
Thank you very much.