Prisons and Young Offenders Institutions (Scotland) Amendment Rules 2000 (SSI 2000/187)
We move to item 5. I ask the deputy convener to take the chair for this item, because I have to leave the chamber for a few minutes because of how late we are.
We are dealing with item 5, which is Phil Gallie's motion on the subordinate legislation to do with prisons and young offenders. Phil, will you speak to your motion?
I am deeply disturbed that, having been pressured into putting back this debate until today—when to some degree it loses its effect—and to go from a debate of an hour and a half to one of 30 minutes, I now have only 22 minutes. Having said that, I am sure that the committee can deal with the matter swiftly.
My first point for the minister is that the confinement of young offenders is an issue that causes strong emotions. The purpose behind confinement is to give time in which to try to change young people's misguided ways. The reasons for committal to a young offenders institution or prison are: to instil discipline; to create an atmosphere of deterrence in order to put off a young person from committing a crime again; to punish for an offence committed against others; to allow the young person to pick up new skills; and to provide time for rehabilitation. There is a combination of issues.
The wearing of prison garb is important. It sets down a disciplinary standard. I am concerned that the amendment, through the statutory instrument, would move towards reducing the effects of that element of the sentence by giving some discretion to governors on the wearing of prison garb. There are other implications now, because of the pressures that the Prison Service is under—pressures could be brought to bear on staff. Favours could be seen to be given to some prisoners if a governor used his discretion to allow a few to wear their own clothes while others had to wear standard garb. That could lead to unrest and that, with the pressures on staff, gives me cause for concern.
Another point is relevant in relation to rule 80 of the principal rules, which refers to association between those who are put in solitary confinement. Again, we seem to be relaxing the rules. It is suggested that a governor could turn a blind eye to prisoners associating with others in a similar situation.
My final point is on the amendment of rule 100A, which imposes a limit of one sixth of a sentence with respect to adding days to a sentence. If a prisoner incurs the wrath of the system to the extent that more than one sixth of their sentence should be added, that should happen. If it does not, what will deter somebody who is set on a course of constant disruption in an institution from continuing on that course? Those prisoners could say, "There is nothing more that you can do to me."
Those points inform my stand on the motion. I ask the minister to respond to them and the committee to consider them.
I move,
That the Committee recommends that nothing further be done under the Prisons and Young Offenders Institutions (Scotland) Amendment Rules 2000 (SSI 2000/187).
Phil Gallie has made a number of points.
On the first point, about young offenders in prison, a report will be published on the 26 September—I think that I have got the date right—on the experience of young offenders within the Scottish Prison Service. It is a wide-ranging and comprehensive report. Given the concerns that Phil Gallie has raised, I am sure that he will find it informative and interesting in relation to rehabilitation, access to various programmes and so on. His opening comments triggered that off in my mind.
On the first point that Phil Gallie raised, on prisoners' clothing, the present rules state that all prisoners may wear their own clothes in prison, subject to certain exemptions. The most significant exception to this right is that it can be removed from all prisoners—or particular categories of prisoners—in a prison by a direction made under the rules. Due to security considerations that has been done in respect of convicted prisoners in all but the open prisons.
The Scottish Prison Service now recommends in the changes to the rules that that blanket and centralised approach is not necessarily appropriate. Instead, whether a convicted prisoner should be allowed to wear their own clothing should be decided for each individual prisoner depending on their circumstances. For example, to give it coherence, it is envisaged that governors might allow certain prisoners to wear their own sports clothing for specific recreational activities rather than wearing specified clothing. The discretion that is being given to governors is neither dangerous nor inappropriate. It seems to me appropriately flexible.
The second point that Phil Gallie raised related to removal from association. He had some concerns about its punitive effect being lessened. At present the rules require that prisoners who are removed from association should be kept entirely separate, not only from prisoners in general but from others who have been removed from association. However, that is not always necessary, for a number of reasons. It can cause practical difficulties. For example, prisoners are entitled to have access to open air at least once a day. At present each prisoner has to be escorted separately, which generates its own bureaucratic cost. We are allowing specific governors to let prisoners who have been removed from association associate with each other where appropriate. I hope that addresses the point that Phil raised.
The final point relates to additional days. As I understand it, the effect of the rules that are being proposed here is to extend the period that the prisoner has to serve before becoming entitled to or eligible for release under the early release provisions of the Prisoners and Criminal Proceedings (Scotland) Act 1993. That delays the date on which the prisoner would otherwise be released from custody. That may go some way to addressing Phil Gallie's concern.
I have a couple of points on Phil Gallie's reasons for opposing the instrument. Phil must remember that the punishment that we mete out is the loss of liberty, not what happens in the prison. The minister touched on that. Relaxing the rule on prisoners' clothing is about treating people as individuals and not just as entities. Surely it is better for good order in our prisons and young offenders institutions if governors have some sort of discretion. Rather than being hide-bound by some bureaucratic, centralist diktat, they should know their prisoners and know what is best for their prison. The idea was proposed by the Scottish Prison Service—I am sure that it is welcomed by the SPS because of the benefits that would be the result.
When we discuss prisons, the committee has to be careful not to be schizophrenic in its approach. We have been critical of the Scottish Prison Service on numerous occasions. Although it has now closed, those of us who visited Longriggend could see that, rather than treating people the way they were treated in that institution in the past, there would be benefits in something like this.
I agree with much of what Scott Barrie has to say about treating prisoners as individuals and the effect that is given to discipline when it is known retrospectively what the sentence is. What prompted the changes? Which organisations supported them?
The short answer is straightforward operational experience within the Scottish Prison Service. The rules are changed on an annual basis.
Was it the SPS that suggested the changes?
Yes.
I thank Phil Gallie for putting this on the agenda. While I agree that the amendments need to be made, it is important that the committee takes the time to consider what is being done. I am sure that many Scottish prisoners would thank us for doing that.
I have two points for clarification. First, I want to clarify whether the amendment to rule 62A brings MSPs into line with MPs and MEPs. That is important, as many of us get letters from prisoners, and I would like to think that we have equal rights there.
Secondly, on extending the period of temporary confinement to cell from half an hour to an hour, is that the only form of confinement?
The short answer to the first question is yes, that does put MSPs on a par with MPs and MEPs. On the second question, about temporary confinement to cell, my understanding is that prison officers themselves have the power to confine a prisoner to their cell temporarily if desirable due to the prisoner's emotional state, or if the prisoner is acting in a disobedient or disorderly matter, while other prisoners are permitted to be in association.
I am not sure if this is in the briefing note, but the intention behind rule 85A of the principal rules is to allow officers to defuse difficult situations without resorting to more formal procedures. That would allow confinement of up to one hour in a cell, but I do not think that the intention goes wider than that.
Is solitary confinement different?
Yes, solitary confinement is a longer-term status, whereas confinement to cell is temporary.
So it is a specific category of confinement.
Do you want to Phil up—I mean sum up, Phil? [Laughter.]
First, I thank Pauline McNeill for her comments on taking a stand on this negative instrument. It is all too easy for MSPs to allow such things to flow past without raising questions. We get a heck of a volume of them coming through. Given the debates which we have had on bills, and recognising that, on occasion, we give way to ministers who lodge amendments suggesting that everything will be okay because they will introduce a statutory instrument which we can all examine, it is important for us to take such matters up.
Scott Barrie and I will beg to differ in every way on our interpretations of the use of prison. Apart from that, I accept the minister's arguments, although not with great enthusiasm—rather with a touch of realism, given the committee's feelings. It is not my intention to waste the committee's time further. I do not think that its time has been wasted today, but it would be wasted were I to press the matter to a vote.
On the basis that Phil moved his motion earlier, can I take it that the committee is content for his motion that nothing further be done under the rules to be withdrawn?
Motion, by agreement, withdrawn.
As members will be aware, we only have about nine minutes left, and a number of items remain on the agenda. I have already had a word with Maureen Macmillan in respect of today's agenda item on domestic violence. Maureen has met the Minister for Justice and the Deputy Minister for Communities.
I understand that Maureen Macmillan also has a meeting scheduled for tomorrow. Because of the fact that we are struggling with time and the fact that, in any case, the further meeting probably means that the matter will have to go back on to the agenda anyway, I propose that we remit the domestic violence item to next week's agenda. We will be able to get a report on the meetings with both ministers and finalise the situation then.
We have already agreed to take item 7 in private, so I would ask anybody not directly connected with this committee—and the official reporter—to leave the chamber.
Meeting continued in private until 13:05.